Explainer: Supreme Court’s OSHA and HHS Vaccine Mandate Decisions

[Stan]

Both the OSHA and HHS vaccine mandates provided for religious accommodation which would be enforced through the Workplace Religious Freedom Act. Without a Federal OSHA requirement, WRFA may only apply to HHS cases.

The post Explainer: Supreme Court’s OSHA and HHS Vaccine Mandate Decisions appeared first on ReligiousLiberty.TV / Founders' First Freedom®.

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[Ellen]

On 10/19/2020 at 8:51 PM, phkrause said:

King David High School has a policy that the parents must call the school if a student is to be absent for the day. David Applebaum decided to skip school and go to the mall with his friends. So he waited until his parents left for work and called the school himself. This is the transcription of the telephone call.

David: "Hi, I'm calling to report that David Applebaum is unable to make it to school today because he’s sick."

Secretary at high school: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I'll note his absence. Who is this calling?"

David: "This is my mother."

?

[Ellen]

My sister doesn't want to take the vaccination and was hoping she could get an exemption from the church.  The seventh-day Adventist church is not against vaccinations and does not use religious exemptions to get out of it. 

[phkrause]

2 hours ago, Ellen said:

My sister doesn't want to take the vaccination and was hoping she could get an exemption from the church.  The seventh-day Adventist church is not against vaccinations and does not use religious exemptions to get out of it. 

That's to bad, because I believe that if more take it the quicker this would be over!!

[bonnie]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

That's to bad, because I believe that if more take it the quicker this would be over!!

Numerous of my family members have battled Covid 19. All vaccinated, most  boostered.  Certainly wasnt over for them. The funeral for a friend following all the rules, good health, vaccination and boostered  will be held on Fri.

Somehow we will have to learn to co-exist with this virus/variants and have therapeutics to treat.

I wonder what the reaction would be for repeated calls to have two vaccinations and boosters for other vacines. And then find out it is partially effective.

They cannot eradicate the common flu that usually kills thousands every year

 

[GHansen]

15 hours ago, bonnie said:

They cannot eradicate the common flu that usually kills thousands every year

"They" certainly came up with an effective treatment/vaccine for HIV/AIDS, polio, MMR, Hepatitis A/B and other viral illnesses. Flu normally does not kill 35 year old men without other health issues. HIV did. It took several years to come up with an effective HIV treatment. Science is doing fairly well against Covid, considering the time it has been around. Is it a perfect treatment? No but few things are. 

[bonnie]

2 hours ago, GHansen said:

"They" certainly came up with an effective treatment/vaccine for HIV/AIDS, polio, MMR, Hepatitis A/B and other viral illnesses. Flu normally does not kill 35 year old men without other health issues. HIV did. It took several years to come up with an effective HIV treatment. Science is doing fairly well against Covid, considering the time it has been around. Is it a perfect treatment? No but few things are. 

There really isnt any need to defend vaccines. I have never been opposed to vaccines. Of course illnesses as the flu does not typically cause the death of healthy 35 year olds. That is really true for most illnesses.

HIV is an altogether different scenerio than most. Almost always personal behavior. The type of personal behavior not normally associated with the flu or most other viral illnesses.

It is the assumption that if only those careless uncaring individuals opposed to having the vaccines would get their vaccination no more covid. 

Vaccinated individuals are perfectly capable of transmitting the virus and of getting sick and in some cases dying. As my friend, fully vaccinated, ,no health issues. Funeral on fri

Yes, progress has been made. Thankfully. I have been vaccinated, boostered ,flu shot and fully expect I can get covid and spread it for all the hand wringing over unvaccinated individuals causing the spread.

[bonnie]

If this becomes law is it possible that this will rear it's ugly head in the US 

Austria tweaks vaccine mandate plan, to come in next month | KLAS (8newsnow.com)

[GHansen]

Since there is, in most cases, not a downside to vaccination but a potential upside, the government should mandate it. The Austrian plan is too soft. Lot of people might be willing to pay a fine. Immediate arrest and incarceration would be better. I've been vaccinated 3 times and am subject to mandated weekly testing. Not a problem. People who resist government mandates, implemented  in the interest of public health, are considered criminals and punished accordingly! 

[bonnie]

I do believe there will come a day when we will lose our freedoms to government mandates. The mandates will of course be "for our own good" and those that don't comply will indeed become criminals.  It is surprising to see the number of SDA's that are so in favor of a federal mandate.

[GHansen]

20 minutes ago, bonnie said:

It is surprising to see the number of SDA's that are so in favor of a federal mandate.

Federal mandates are necessary when society require them. If people did the right thing, there wouldn't be a need for mandates. As Galatians says "The law [mandate] was added because of transgressions."  Every action of the government need not be viewed in the context of Sunday law legislation.

[bonnie]

18 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Federal mandates are necessary when society require them. If people did the right thing, there wouldn't be a need for mandates. As Galatians says "The law [mandate] was added because of transgressions."  Every action of the government need not be viewed in the context of Sunday law legislation.

You are right not everything  has to viewed in the context of Sunday law legislation. Not everything needs or should be ignored either. I believe Galatians is referring to God's law, Not Biden's. For some it seems easy to confuse

Biden's end run around congress didn't work thankfully. He is president not dictator, subject to following the law as we are or should be. Congress did not pass a law . Biden and Osha cannot do it in place of congress. Which of course might be a  bumpy ride for Biden.  Obviously why he chooses to act like a incompetent dictator. I believe states have the constitutional authority but with elections coming up and the failure of this admin, that would not be an easy road either.

There might be better compliance if there were better leading. So much has been botched this last year by a man promising to stamp out the virus unlike his predecessor many no longer accept the "governments" word on much of anything. People with two brain cells to rub together knew it was a  false promise when Biden made it but very little has been done except issue mandates which he can't enforce.  Ignoring and claiming no one saw the variants coming. Another less than truthful statements. Dismissing the need for more testing ability.

Maybe with a more truthful and competent administration compliance can be improved without a illegal mandate from Biden.

 

[GHansen]

7 hours ago, bonnie said:

Maybe with a more truthful and competent administration compliance can be improved without a illegal mandate from Biden.

I doubt it. As I said before, enunciating a principle, if people did what they were supposed to do. laws wouldn't be required. Laws are not made for compliant people, they are made for the recalcitrant, rebellious, reprobate, etc. If everyone would get vaccinated because it is the right thing to do, there wouldn't be laws requiring it. If people lived moral lives, there wouldn't be a need for abortion laws for or against.  Laws against murder, theft trespassing wouldn't be needed.

 

[bonnie]

46 minutes ago, GHansen said:

I doubt it. As I said before, enunciating a principle, if people did what they were supposed to do. laws wouldn't be required. Laws are not made for compliant people, they are made for the recalcitrant, rebellious, reprobate, etc. If everyone would get vaccinated because it is the right thing to do, there wouldn't be laws requiring it. If people lived moral lives, there wouldn't be a need for abortion laws for or against.  Laws against murder, theft trespassing wouldn't be needed.

 

If everyone would get vaccinated because it is the right thing to do, there wouldn't be laws requiring it

While it is true there are always the  recalcitrant, rebellious, reprobate in any dispute  or disagreement of importance.  If everyone would do the right thing according to which expert?  Most made the decision based on something more important than rebellion.  Listening to the barrage of conflicting opinions, some very compelling negative opinions, did not instill confidence in the truth of what was coming from the government. As much as this admin cries and whines about the unvaccinated, the unvaccinated looks at his border policy and the thousands of untested and unvaccinated that keep pouring in and sees a fraud. Assurances that once vaccinated you are safe from contagion. While that was probably or hopefully a honest mistake many are not ready to line up in lock step again. Biden's mandate that most saw as non binding and illegal to put into practise certainly didn't add to his credibility. 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

3 hours ago, bonnie said:

If everyone would do the right thing according to which expert? 

According to a single undergraduate course in microbiology. Most  people would realize that, after taking a course in microbiology,  vaccinations make good sense. They would know that viruses often mutate, as do bacteria. Education is not always the answer. I knew an RN who fell in with some antivaxxer types. They convinced her that colonic irrigation was the answer to her health problems since "drug medication was sorcery/of the devil, etc." Turns out she had meningitis and was nearly killed. If she didn't recover she would likely have preferred death to blindness and paralysis for the rest of her days.

Has any real attempt been made to educate the public regarding the actual science of vaccination? All that I see in the news is simply political posturing and partisanship. 

[bonnie]

16 hours ago, GHansen said:

According to a single undergraduate course in microbiology. Most  people would realize that, after taking a course in microbiology,  vaccinations make good sense. They would know that viruses often mutate, as do bacteria. Education is not always the answer. I knew an RN who fell in with some antivaxxer types. They convinced her that colonic irrigation was the answer to her health problems since "drug medication was sorcery/of the devil, etc." Turns out she had meningitis and was nearly killed. If she didn't recover she would likely have preferred death to blindness and paralysis for the rest of her days.

Has any real attempt been made to educate the public regarding the actual science of vaccination? All that I see in the news is simply political posturing and partisanship. 

I am sure most of us could name a person or two that have taken a extreme view medically or religiously.  Most opposed to this vaccine and more and more to the strong arm tactics of the Biden administration are not scheduling an appt for a colonic irrigation. Nor are they typically opposed to vaccines or convinced that drug medication was sorcery or of the devil.

I believe most have researched and do not trust what they are hearing , Many are Dr's, who have a better grasp on this than you do........According to a single undergraduate course in microbiology. Most  people would realize that, after taking a course in microbiology,  vaccinations make good sense. They would know that viruses often mutate, as do bacteria

I think it serves the purpose of lumping all those that refuse the vaccine and detest the strong arm tactics pf this administration as some lunatic fringe that is perpetuating the spread of covid.

Maybe a little straight forward honesty and less political nonsense would go a long way 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

4 hours ago, bonnie said:

Many are Dr's, who have a better grasp on this than you do

Really? "Many" doctors are opposed to vaccination? How many? What % of licensed physicians are opposed to vaccination? You "believe" such and such. Do you really know how much research physicians have done on the vaccine or what their true motives are? During the AIDS crisis, in the 90s, there were a few physicians, including SDA, who were hysterical about AIDS. None that I was aware of held specialties in infectious disease. I'd be interested to know how many physicians with specialties or sub specialties in infectious disease, immunology, or public health are opposed to vaccinations. It's true that most physicians have taken more than an undergraduate course in micro, which is exactly why they must be allowing other agendas to cloud their judgment on vaccination.

Many physicians who have become  public figures in the WFPB diet movement admit, some even "brag," that they learned essentially nothing about nutrition during their medical education, beyond the NAS diet. That's it. Strangely, people still listen to what they say about diet, words based not on their medical knowledge but their own tastes and prejudices. Furthermore, a significant number, while refusing to refer patients to lifestyle programs, went themselves and referred their own family members to them. It was so widespread at one famous hospital that risk management got involved due to fear, not of hypocrisy, but legal liability. "Trust me I'm a doctor" ends where actual science  begins, unless that doctor is a specialist in a relevant field.

[bonnie]

59 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Really? "Many" doctors are opposed to vaccination? How many? What % of licensed physicians are opposed to vaccination? You "believe" such and such. Do you really know how much research physicians have done on the vaccine or what their true motives are? During the AIDS crisis, in the 90s, there were a few physicians, including SDA, who were hysterical about AIDS. None that I was aware of held specialties in infectious disease. I'd be interested to know how many physicians with specialties or sub specialties in infectious disease, immunology, or public health are opposed to vaccinations. It's true that most physicians have taken more than an undergraduate course in micro, which is exactly why they must be allowing other agendas to cloud their judgment on vaccination.

Many physicians who have become  public figures in the WFPB diet movement admit, some even "brag," that they learned essentially nothing about nutrition during their medical education, beyond the NAS diet. That's it. Strangely, people still listen to what they say about diet, words based not on their medical knowledge but their own tastes and prejudices. Furthermore, a significant number, while refusing to refer patients to lifestyle programs, went themselves and referred their own family members to them. It was so widespread at one famous hospital that risk management got involved due to fear, not of hypocrisy, but legal liability. "Trust me I'm a doctor" ends where actual science  begins, unless that doctor is a specialist in a relevant field.

Really? "Many" doctors are opposed to vaccination? How many? What % of licensed physicians are opposed to vaccination? You "believe" such and such. Do you really know how much research physicians have done on the vaccine or what their true motives are?

 

My error in not making this clearer and you misunderstood. Not opposed to vaccination, but are opposed to mandates, were opposed to school closing and masking children. They supported therapeutics that Dr. Fauci and other "experts" thumbed their nose at. The father of one of the Dr's was very ill with Covid and his father was treated with Hydroxychloroquine and thankfully had a rapid and dramatic turn around..  Coincidence, untrue?  Nor was he the only reported success. These are not anti vaxxers advocating colonic irrigation in place of all vaccines and drugs.

Being told vaccination was the key to not getting covid,stop being so self centered and get vaccinated, oops, not true,now you need a booster. Wrong again, now maybe a fourth booster for some. Will there be more> Probably. I would believe in the beginning it was probably understood that being vaccinated  would protect you but as it became apparant that was not true, the same anger and demands on those that do not trust that either the FDA,CDC or the DR Fauci's can be certain this vaccine is safe.

So called believable, unbiased information has been  in short supply. 

I have a family member that has chronic Lyme disease. CDC says this  disease  does not exist. Because according to them it is non existent  medical care is very difficult to obtain, of course no insurance will touch it. It has drastically affected his life. A close friend of ours almost lost his daughter to the CDC non existent disease. There are others that I know personally.  Any affected by things like this will not be rushing to comply with CDC and Fauci's claims. The thousands that suffer from Willis-Ekbom Disease (RLS) won't either.  It took several years before I found  a DR that knew what I was talking about or how to treat it.  Of course it didn't exist and it was considered a mental health issue.

There is the lunatic fringe in most issues. You ignore the many actions and reasons that people have for mistrust of CDC, FDA and the DR Fauci's and the research they have done and come to a different conclusion than you have. Without fail any that I know that have refused the vaccine are not thumbing their nose at vaccines in general. They  were vaccinated as children and they have had their children vaccinated

[bonnie]

18 minutes ago, bonnie said:

Really? "Many" doctors are opposed to vaccination? How many? What % of licensed physicians are opposed to vaccination? You "believe" such and such. Do you really know how much research physicians have done on the vaccine or what their true motives are?

 

My error in not making this clearer and you misunderstood. Not opposed to vaccination, but are opposed to mandates, were opposed to school closing and masking children. They supported therapeutics that Dr. Fauci and other "experts" thumbed their nose at. The father of one of the Dr's was very ill with Covid and his father was treated with Hydroxychloroquine and thankfully had a rapid and dramatic turn around..  Coincidence, untrue?  Nor was he the only reported success. These are not anti vaxxers advocating colonic irrigation in place of all vaccines and drugs.

Being told vaccination was the key to not getting covid,stop being so self centered and get vaccinated, oops, not true,now you need a booster. Wrong again, now maybe a fourth booster for some. Will there be more> Probably. I would believe in the beginning it was probably understood that being vaccinated  would protect you but as it became apparant that was not true, the same anger and demands on those that do not trust that either the FDA,CDC or the DR Fauci's can be certain this vaccine is safe.

So called believable, unbiased information has been  in short supply. 

I have a family member that has chronic Lyme disease. CDC says this  disease  does not exist. Because according to them it is non existent  medical care is very difficult to obtain, of course no insurance will touch it. It has drastically affected his life. A close friend of ours almost lost his daughter to the CDC non existent disease. There are others that I know personally.  Any affected by things like this will not be rushing to comply with CDC and Fauci's claims. The thousands that suffer from Willis-Ekbom Disease (RLS) won't either.  It took several years before I found  a DR that knew what I was talking about or how to treat it.  Of course it didn't exist and it was considered a mental health issue.

There is the lunatic fringe in most issues. You ignore the many actions and reasons that people have for mistrust of CDC, FDA and the DR Fauci's and the research they have done and come to a different conclusion than you have. Without fail any that I know that have refused the vaccine are not thumbing their nose at vaccines in general. They  were vaccinated as children and they have had their children vaccinated

 

18 minutes ago, bonnie said:

 

 

 

The healthy middle aged neighbor of a friend of mine  just passed away within hours of being vaccinated due to blood clot.

Things like that and the below have far more to do with refusal than anti vaxxers.

COVID Vaccine Side Effects | Johns Hopkins Medicine

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions...

Nov 09, 2021 · COVID can cause heart problems, too. Having COVID-19 can also cause heart problems. One study published by the CDC reports that from March 2020 to January 2021, patients with COVID-19 had nearly 16 times the risk for myocarditis compared with patients who did not have COVID-19.

COVID-19 inflammation results in urine cytokine elevation ...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33213997

Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) causes a wide range of symptoms, including several unexpected symptoms such as loss of taste, skin changes, and eye problems. We recently observed patients with documented COVID-19 develop de novo severe genitourinary symptoms, most notably urinary frequency of ≥ 13 episodes/24 h and nocturia ≥ 4 episodes ...

Cited by: 7

Publish Year: 2020

Author: Laura E. Lamb, Laura E. Lamb, Nivedita Dhar, Ryan Timar, Melissa Wills, Sorabh Dhar, Michael B. Chan...

COVID-19 can trigger self-attacking antibodies ...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/12/211230130944.htm

Jan 03, 2022 · Infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 can trigger an immune response that lasts well beyond the initial infection and recovery -- even among people who had mild symptoms or no symptoms at ...

I was cautioned on the underlined by a Dr very recently.

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, bonnie said:

I was cautioned on the underlined by a Dr very recently.

Always possible problems with any kind of "treatment." Among first things people learn when studying herbology is what herbs are poisonous. You can do nothing or you can do something. Even EGW wrote about the misapplication of water treatment which caused serious problems for the patient. People can die from an allergic reaction to throat spray, which is normally not a problem. This is exactly what I'm referencing, dwelling on the small amount of damage that may be done to a few while neglecting the great benefits to the many. It's really a type of fanaticism. Look through a PDR sometime. Virtually every single medicine has paragraphs about possible  negative side effect; nevertheless, they are still prescribed with usually beneficial results. I once picked up the body of a junior high student who died from an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts. All junior high students should not be forbidden  a peanut butter sandwich because a miniscule number are allergic.

Your previous posts include a conflation of mandates and vaccine efficacy. Government mandates are not always bad. If the government got out of the pocket of big tobacco and banned tobacco use, would you argue that people should be allowed to smoke if they want? People who deal in tobacco products if they are illegal should face extreme penalties, as other drug dealers do up to and including execution, carried out in a timely manner. Second hand smoke, astronomical health care costs, fires, cancer, heart disease and so on don't matter if the government mandates the removal of tobacco from society? The mandate is the issue or the health of society? I favor the denial of health care benefits to those who smoke. If people want to poison themselves, let them pay for their own private health insurance. Actuaries can figure the risks and charge them accordingly. Same with antivaxxers. Got Covid? Not vaccinated? The bill for thee, not for me.

[bonnie]

10 hours ago, GHansen said:

Always possible problems with any kind of "treatment." Among first things people learn when studying herbology is what herbs are poisonous. You can do nothing or you can do something. Even EGW wrote about the misapplication of water treatment which caused serious problems for the patient. People can die from an allergic reaction to throat spray, which is normally not a problem. This is exactly what I'm referencing, dwelling on the small amount of damage that may be done to a few while neglecting the great benefits to the many. It's really a type of fanaticism.

I am fairly certain that the the grief the family of the  man dying suddenly from a blood clot is considered dwelling on the small amount of damage.

It's really a type of fanaticism.

This is true of many types of fanaticism. Being so full of yourself  and your own beliefs that  the person  you can neither understand what is being said nor do you want to.

Your previous posts include a conflation of mandates and vaccine efficacy. Government mandates are not always bad.

No and of course that has not been the claim. But there is a system in place to enact laws.  The founding fathers had the foresight to put a system in place that would help protect from  system of government where one corrupt man had the power to enact laws on the country.

It isn't the mandate as much as it is the total disregard for the leader of this country has. Congress, not Biden has the power to pass laws.

[bonnie]

 If the government got out of the pocket of big tobacco and banned tobacco use, would you argue that people should be allowed to smoke if they want? Unfortunately yes,if it remains a legal product

People who deal in tobacco products if they are illegal should face extreme penalties, as other drug dealers do up to and including execution, carried out in a timely manner. Second hand smoke, astronomical health care costs, fires, cancer, heart disease and so on don't matter if the government mandates the removal of tobacco from society?

If it is illegal of course they should, but  that is not likely to happen. 

I read the other day a medical article on the dangers of obesity. Obesity  for the health risks and deaths it causes. I am one of the fortunate few that can consume calories without weight gain so it is very easy for me to be as righteous as those demanding force vaccines.  Most  obesity is self induced so why should obese or overweight patients be treated at the expense of the rest of us? Consume less food and for those that can be more physically active and problem of astronomical health care costs would be solved for most obesity.

The mandate is the issue or the health of society? I favor the denial of health care benefits to those who smoke. If people want to poison themselves, let them pay for their own private health insurance. Actuaries can figure the risks and charge them accordingly. Same with antivaxxers. Got Covid? Not vaccinated? The bill for thee, not for me.

 

There are many ways people poison themselves.

  Thankfully those that favor these types of laws, really a type of fanaticism, are not in control yet. 

My family is vaccinated, I am not against vaccines. I am against a president that has that position confused with ruler and believes he can by pass states and congress. Especially with the confusion he and others have added to covid. Let  congress do their job.  I am opposed to those that can't wait to penalize and jail those that have come to another position and are at this point not disobeying a law.

At some point "my way or the highway, it is for your own good, I am from the government and here to help"  will be the norm.  Sadly a lot of SDA's will be marching in lock step to that mind set.  The system in place that is still offering protection will no longer be a shield.

 

[GHansen]

Your issue is, apparently, with the government, not with vaccines. If you are an anti government type, antivaxxing seems a strange issue to battle over but probably it's not the issue but rather the battle that is important to you.

[bonnie]

25 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Your issue is, apparently, with the government, not with vaccines. If you are an anti government type, antivaxxing seems a strange issue to battle over but probably it's not the issue but rather the battle that is important to you.

You are wrong on all counts. I am not anti- government or antivaxxing. I am opposed to those of any party that abuses their role. We have a system that has served this country well for many years. Warts and all it has done a pretty good job. Whether it is vaccine or another issue by passing that system and acting in a dictator fashion the long term results will not good 

I am not in any way opposed to vaccines. My children were fully vaccinated with what was available at the time. Most if not all of my family have had the covid vaccine and or covid.

I am against some of the things that have been pushed and demanded of the citizens of the US.

I am against a president, believing he is some kind of king, trying to write laws.

I do not believe everything that comes from the CDC, Dr Fauci Or Biden. I believe all three have not only been wrong many times I believe deliberately dishonest, or a little careless with the truth. It is fairly easy for most of us to dismiss your   type of extreme example of colonic irrigation, not quite so easy for many for those that have been taught to almost revere certain ones.

I believe in vaccines, but vaccines will not cure the virus. Nor will illegal mandates that allowed to stand.

 

 

 

[GHansen]

14 hours ago, bonnie said:

I believe in vaccines, but vaccines will not cure the virus. Nor will illegal mandates that allowed to stand.

So if you are not against vaccines, why do you post info on all the things that might go wrong if one takes the vaccine? There are possible side effects to every medicine in the PDR and many if not all medicinal herbs. Several years ago, a Chinese physician won the Nobel prize for developing an anti malarial pharmaceutical that has saved many lives. She derived the compounded  remedy from a Chinese medical text at least 2000 years old. it's considered low toxicity but may cause problems. It's from a plant called sweet wormwood. Better to die of malaria than take a chance on the medicine?

Nearly every post you write expresses antigovernment sentiments. 

If government mandates are required to compel recalcitrant citizens to get vaccinated, bring them on, preferably with some teeth such as incarceration for non compliance. ~ 70 years ago, a government mandated that every prostitute get a PCN shot. The police and public health officials swarmed over brothels early in the morning. If there was any resistance,  imagine how it was responded to. Know what the result was? A sharp decrease in syphilis. Untreated syphilis can  infect the nervous system and kill people. Would you advise an unfortunate victim of this disease to resist the mandate, if there was one, and possibly have the ear, eye, heart, brain infected with the toxic infectious agent, while infecting others, or get a shot?