wrapped in dried mud

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What is it that is missing in the church today?

In the gospels it talks about multitudes of people coming to listen to Jesus speak. And he didn't have microphones, sound systems, and PowerPoint programs. Yet people came to hear Him. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/]

And in Acts the foundling Christian church had fervor and vibrancy and LIFE. People were interested and WANTED to hear what the apostles/disciples/preachers/teachers had to tell them. People were passionate about Christ...and passionate about telling others about Him..

Man oh man. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I wish it was the same now. Sometimes it seems like the church is wrapped up in dried mud....the seeds are there to spring to life, but everything's dried up. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sad25.gif" alt="" />

[Gail]

Precisely! I have often marvelled at the Bible accounts of the attendance of Jesus' sermons and how He was able by talking to people cause them to leave everything and follow Him

It was something like that with our last Revelation series, the speaker being John Bradshaw from Amazing Facts. The people were astonished at the things they were learning from God's word. And that is how it should be

[Nicodema]

Where there is no vision, the people perish.

Where there is only a mummified notion of what constitutes (or is accepted as) a "prophet", there is no vision.

1 + 1 = 2.

[Dr. Shane]

I have attended many church service in Latin America where there was standing room only. Those are not nearly as common in the States. I think it has something to do with poverty makes a person feel like they are more in need of God. That would follow since Palastine was full of poor people in the days of Christ.

[Nicodema]

Saying that poverty makes people feel "more need of God" in my mind is like giving credence to Karl Marx's observation of religion as the "opiate of the people." Poverty is degrading, draining, entrapping, exhausting, dispiriting, and depressing. The rich and those who run things can keep others in poverty for their own personal advantage and religion acts as a palliative, an anodyne, to keep them in line so they won't revolt and overturn the existing order.

That is the real reason for the strong anti-intellectualism found in nations dominated by capitalism. Keeping the people ignorant and looking to the skies and the afterlife works for the corrupt who are "in power." It isn't about honoring their Maker or any real faith in any God at all; to them it is a game, a mental, emotional, psychological tool of manipulation, a placating addictive device for the masses, that allows them to continue to prosper and stay in control of things. Filthy swine.

[Dr. Shane]

Capitalism actually decreases poverty while socialism decreases the wealthy class and increases poverty.

The key to making money in a capitalistic society is making a product or service that can be marketted to the masses. Henry Ford's Model T is the classic example. Henry Ford could have never became as rich as he did by making a few expensive cars for a few wealthy people. He became so rich because he made many cheap cars for lots of people.

It is because of capitalism that the common folks have vacuum cleaners, washing machines, air conditioning, televisions, cell phones and on and on. Capitalism raises the standard of living for the lower class.

There is a pretty clear coalation between poverty and religion. I am sure one can find many cases where religion has taken advantage of its influence among the poor. However, even if it doesn't, the poor are more inclined to become religious.

[Gail]

I believe there is a Scripture text where the author wishes that he would be on neither extreme of the spectrum. I cannot remember the exact words... *thinking hard*

[olger]

"And in Acts the foundling Christian church had fervor and vibrancy and LIFE. People were interested and WANTED to hear what the apostles/disciples/preachers/teachers had to tell them. People were passionate about Christ...and passionate about telling others about Him.."

Amen sister.

"I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need."

olger

[Neil D]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

What is it that is missing in the church today?

In the gospels it talks about multitudes of people coming to listen to Jesus speak. And he didn't have microphones, sound systems, and PowerPoint programs. Yet people came to hear Him.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

He met thier needs....Unfortunately, our church is not focused upon needs, but upon right doctrine, the right day, the right ...thing...

but not upon needs...We don't want our needs met. Or worse, we are confused as to what our needs are...Our lives are so busy, and so profoundly crowded with things to do, that we forget to listen....and we don't hear the soft spoken word behind our ears...we don't listen to the calling that we have for listening...and then obeying...

We think that the idea that we had was so out of the ordinary, so strange, so unique that it could not possibly fit the situation that it is applied to....

[:"green"] if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [/]

Active prayer is a calling to listen and share our needs with other people and most of all, being honest with God and talking to him....

We don't listen to the commands or the needs....we just crowd our lives with things, like TV or Computers or trucks/cars or how to make a few more dollars or whatever....

Well, the above is just my opinion....Don't get too excited about it...it's just one more thing to read about as to what is wrong with the world...

[D. Allan]

Quote:

What is it that is missing in the church today?

Heart.

Jesus loved those people. He had THEIR interest at heart. Not the intrest of some beauracracy. Such as a denominational entity.

You never read about Jesus taking up an offering!! Instead He was passing out food ---

[Nicodema]

Quote:

What is it that is missing in the church today?

Heart.

Jesus loved those people. He had THEIR interest at heart. Not the intrest of some beauracracy. Such as a denominational entity.

Hear hear.

Not to mention, Jesus was not a petty, punitive, sniping little twit who got his knickers in a twist anytime someone disagreed with His assessment or view of something. When the rich young ruler turned to go, He let him go. When He knew only 1 leper would say "thanks" He STILL HEALED ALL NINE. He did not send the freaking militia out after them to drag them somewhere and FORCE him to think the way Jesus thinks or FORCE them to be grateful. When He met with demoniacs He FIXED what was wrong -- instead of telling them it was all their fault somehow or sending out centurions to interrogate them on their private THOUGHTS or haul them to prison for their THOUGHTS.

He did not break people's trust, violate their privacy, RAPE their spirits, TRAUMATIZE THEM and then claim it was because He "cared" about them (as if.) He did not make things shared with Him in confidence a matter for the public square and He did not utilize the same oppressive system against which He was supposed to be for His own private petty spiteful ends just because someone told him straight up he was not a good friend to them when he wasn't -- because He was never anything BUT good to people and did right by them.

He did not withhold His gifts from someone just because they were unholy or unclean.

That's the shizz that works -- and that's everything missing from the church formula (and society at large -- no difference these days though there should be) -- today.

And that's why I despise utterly the entire thing.

[D. Allan]

"...the church -- (and society at large -- no difference these days though there should be) --"

The consumer society - it is in our churches too. Capitalism needs

consumers – so it creates needs. People are enticed – seduced into becoming consumers. Consumers want to have things rather than to be a real creative person. They can end up becoming a thing themselves ! A cog in the Wheel of industry and/or technology.

Things – another word for Idols.

It takes time – time working – to be able to afford those idols. Precious time. Time better spent fulfilling one’s creative human potential. The capitalists are sucking the people dry of their human and spiritual potential.

If the poor are more receptive to religion (and I’m not sure about that – but if they are) maybe it is because they have less of a hunger for things and money – and more of a hunger to be authentic humans. Jesus said you can’t serve both money and God.

[Nicodema]

There's even more subtle ways than consumerism, though, D. There's the whole pecking-order clique structure, the same denials and coverups, hidden agendas, snobs and ways of "freezing out" people who don't "fit the mold", etc. etc. It's just sick. Totally sick. It makes me sick.

It makes me sick that I protest all this evil and I am regarded as the one who is evil.

I could live with that if I was fighting against something holy and good and healing ... but I'm not.

It's a toxic cesspool, revisionists rewriting God into their own image and making of God a toxic cesspool too.

At the same time, I no longer trust the "historic SDA" positions either ... the knee sock crowd, the Puritanical purists. So they are not a refuge either.

There is no refuge. We are cast out upon the midden, driven forth, treated like monsters, and told it is our fault.

[LifeHiscost]

There is an adage; "Better to light one candle than shout at the darkness"!

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 5:16 KJV

[Nicodema]

Not if those making the darkness keep blowing it out, knocking it out of your hands, and kicking you in the face. I mean for fraxsake why bother. It's never noticed or appreciated, never wanted, never welcomed. If I was in it for myself I can just go into a closet and stare at my own navel, y'know?

[LifeHiscost]

By the grace of God, I've been privileged to be associated with another brother who has found it fulfilling to minister to those in prison. Granted, not all receive the words of Christ, but Jesus has never said life following Him would be a bed of roses.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me." Matt 25:40 KJV

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matthew 8:20 ASV

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his teacher, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household!"

Matthew 10:25 ASV

Blessings!!

[Nicodema]

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his teacher, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household!"

Matthew 10:25 ASV

OH YES, but LHC don't you realize that application of such scriptures to themselves is reserved for the "impeccable perfect chosen few" and not for dirty harlot slaves of Satan like myself. [/sarcasm] No, I am not allowed any such reality when I suffer. When I attempt to tell them the truth about their ugliness and lies, I am the villian; I am the devil; I am the antichrist. When they try to lash out at me, chain me, bind me, molest me, destroy me ... and I protest and speak the truth of their evil ... they are allowed to call upon these verses and ones like them and pretend they are doing God's will and they are God's chosen.

Therefore I despise and spit upon all who support their enterprise ..... OR PERMIT IT TO ENDURE.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"It is enough for the disciple that he be as his teacher, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household!"

Matthew 10:25 ASV

Therefore I despise and spit upon all who support their enterprise ..... OR PERMIT IT TO ENDURE.

Anyone who sees their own sins as responsible for the shed blood and broken body of Jesus also recognizes that if the sustaining power of the Spirit of Christ were to be removed from their lives, they would be subject to yielding to the same despicable behavior they so despise while under Jesus' control.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9 KJV

That text is referring to the heart of the natural man/woman. Since we as individuals have absolutely no power capable of competing with the archenemy of souls, our only hope is to daily invite Jesus into our heart, for safety and deliverance. Total deliverance from the power of sin is not immediate, as we need time to learn righteous ways. But total salvation given by Jesus is immediate upon freely giving our life into His hands.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12 KJV

"...God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory..." Colossians 1:27 ASV

Since I cannot control the forces of evil, I choose to turn the problem over to the Lord of glory, and submit to His power over me.

It works for me. Accept Him at His Word and it will work for you.

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing." John 15:5 ASV

" Submit therefore to God Resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7 NASB

"For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him." Acts 2:39 ASV

Blessings!

[Aliensanctuary]

Jesus had his little lit candle, and rather than keeping others in darkness, he shared his fire and lit other's candles. Many didn't want their candles lit, especially those in charge of the organized religion, so they remained in darkness, blundering about in their blindness, stomping on people they couldn't see who didn't get out of their way fast enough.

Are our candles lit? Do our hearts burn within us? Do we have anything spiritual worth giving to others?

When everything has been said and done, it's not whether we went to church or not that will be important, it's only how we treated our fellow humans that will count. Our jobs in the next life will require self-sacrifice because we will be servants. That's why we must be good servants in this life. All the stuff we accumulate and surround ourselves with will do us more harm than good because we didn't use our money and time to help others less fortunate than ourselves.

We can do things like helping mothers with groceries and clothes for their children or dentist or doctor or utility bills. We can find a way to do this anonymously, too. The good we do for others will remain on our life records, everything else will be erased because it's all worthless to God. Taking care of other's needs is what we will be rewarded for. There won't be any awards for those who have attended church for 50 years without missing one church service.

Organized religions have life cycles similar to humans. Joyful Birth, Exploratory Childhood, Energetic Youth, Thoughtful Young Adult, Loss of Energy in Middle Age, and Rigid Thinking and Lack of Imagination in Old Age.

We're wasting our time if we expect to get much of anything of value from church. Unless, of course, it's training on how to interest our friends and neighbors in what it takes to join the Kingdom of God, not what it takes to join the church we attend.

[Nan]

Quote:

Jesus had his little lit candle, and rather than keeping others in darkness, he shared his fire and lit other's candles. Many didn't want their candles lit, especially those in charge of the organized religion, so they remained in darkness, blundering about in their blindness, stomping on people they couldn't see who didn't get out of their way fast enough.

Are our candles lit? Do our hearts burn within us? Do we have anything spiritual worth giving to others?

When everything has been said and done, it's not whether we went to church or not that will be important, it's only how we treated our fellow humans that will count. Our jobs in the next life will require self-sacrifice because we will be servants. That's why we must be good servants in this life. All the stuff we accumulate and surround ourselves with will do us more harm than good because we didn't use our money and time to help others less fortunate than ourselves.

I have always found it interesting that when Jesus is commending those who have shared what they have with those in need (Matthew 25), they appear not to be aware of the long term impact of their actions. I guess this is saying that the actions that count are those done out of love and concern for the need of others, and not those done to score points for heaven.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Organized religions have life cycles similar to humans. Joyful Birth, Exploratory Childhood, Energetic Youth, Thoughtful Young Adult, Loss of Energy in Middle Age, and Rigid Thinking and Lack of Imagination in Old Age.

Hey, be careful of us old geezers I know some who are anything but ridid. The imagination just begins to work well in old age!! You need it then.

Seriously, religions are made of the individuals in them. A religions character is determined those people. Or should be. Maybe in Christianity the problem is people feel obligated to follow the "party line" of their denomination. We should think and act for ourselves. If your religion doesn't satisfy - get a different one. It should fit you and be meaningful to you. We need to get rid of or ignore denominations. Be a church-hopper. Adventist's have it made. They can go to church on Sat. and then again on Sunday. Never too much of a good thing, us ridgid geezers say!

Hinduism, (vedanta in the U.S.A.) is vibrant to this day - inspite of being over 3000 yrs. old. Probably because of it's all-inclusive character. To them there is only one God - no matter how you worship, or serve Him, no matter what name you give Him. They accept all religions as true. If it works for you, it is right. If you grow out of it - change it. Truth is truth where ever you find it.

[LifeHiscost]

We're wasting our time if we expect to get much of anything of value from church. Unless, of course, it's training on how to interest our friends and neighbors in what it takes to join the Kingdom of God, not what it takes to join the church we attend.

How does that assessment square with this information?

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" 1 Peter 2:9 KJV

Especially when connected to this statement.

"I heard another voice from heaven, saying, " Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues..." Revelation 18:4 NASB

[LifeHiscost]

Hinduism, (vedanta in the U.S.A.) is vibrant to this day - inspite of being over 3000 yrs. old. Probably because of it's all-inclusive character. To them there is only one God - no matter how you worship, or serve Him, no matter what name you give Him. They accept all religions as true. If it works for you, it is right. If you grow out of it - change it. Truth is truth where ever you find it.

Are you suggesting these words are not true?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life" John 14:6 ASV

"That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other" Isaiah 45:6 NKJV

Regards!!

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Are you suggesting these words are not true?

Not at all!

(1. Jesus completely identified Himself with the truth, and with God. That's the only way.

(2. God is alway God, the same God, where ever you find Him. That is because there is only One God. A rose by any other name... etc. Some call Him Jehovah, some call Him Allah, some call Him Brahama, some call Him the Great Spirit. He is the same One. Just as it says in Isaiah, "There is none besides Me."

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

A rose by any other name... etc. Some call Him Jehovah, some call Him Allah, some call Him Brahama, some call Him the Great Spirit. He is the same One.