Humble Disciple Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 There is more to the situation in Ukraine than what the mainstream media is telling us. Rather than just an evil dictator who decided to invade Ukraine for no reason, Putin has voiced concern regarding the ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers in the Donbas region of Ukraine committed by Azov, a neo-Nazi paramilitary group that's been officially accepted into Ukraine's national guard, as well as the push to arm Ukraine and make Ukraine a NATO country before this war started, which Putin saw as an act of western hostility against Russia. In 2014, there was a western and US-supported coup in Ukraine against Ukraine's democratically elected, Russia-friendly government, and an EU-friendly, US-friendly government was installed in its place. Neo-Nazi groups such as S14 participated in the coup. Members of the previous government, who were friendly to Russia, have been jailed. In general, I am antiwar. I don't support either side, even though the mainstream media expects us to be on Ukraine's side. I don't see Putin invading Ukraine as any different from Bush invading Iraq over WMDs and ties to al-Qaeda that didn't exist or Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen with weapons provided by the United States. I don't agree with everything Putin has ever done, but he's a devout Christian, whom the mainstream media will hate no matter what for opposing abortion and banning gay pride parades. Also, after four years of falsely claiming that Russia stole the 2016 election for Trump, the mainstream media needs a reason to demonize Russia without seeing any sort of nuance to this conflict. NATO was founded specifically to protect the United States and free western nations during the Cold War. After the fall of the Soviet Union, NATO promised not to expand eastward. Foreign policy experts have been predicting for years that the push to have Ukraine join NATO, rather than allowing it to remain neutral would lead to war with Russia. At some point, one wonders whether American politicians have been hoping for war with Russia, in order to enrich the defense contractors who donate to their campaigns and to destabilize Russia's economy. I can't imagine praying for the people of Ukraine without also praying for the Russian-speakers in the Donbas region who've been the victim of persecution. Also, knowing about the rampant corruption in Ukraine, I don't see how Zelenskyy is a more legitimate leader than Putin. I also don't see how the people of Ukraine are more needful of our prayers than the people of Yemen, Libya, etc., countries that have become complete humanitarian disasters due to U.S. involvement. Throughout Ukraine, there are streets and monuments dedicated to Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych, Nazi collaborators who are to this day regarded as national heroes. The mainstream media is using the fact that the current president of Ukraine is Jewish to ignore or dismiss the prevalence of neo-Nazism in Ukrainian institutions, because it wants us to take Ukraine's side in the war. I would rather take neither side and pray that a peace agreement is reached as soon as possible. This article goes into detail on what the mainstream media isn't telling us about Ukraine: https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/ phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream Another reason why the mainstream media and American politicians want us to support Ukraine's side in this war might be the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, for bypassing Ukraine and going directly to Germany. Because of this, American energy companies might stand to lose a great deal of money. I am against this war. I believe that Putin made a bad decision. But I also don't believe that supporting Ukraine against Russia should be the default position. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 https://inews.co.uk/news/world/minsk-agreement-what-accords-explained-russia-ukraine-prevent-invasion-war-1457014 Zelenskyy has refused to implement the Minsk agreement, which would give autonomous status to Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine. This is likely due to fear of another possible coup, should he upset the wrong people. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 https://original.antiwar.com/rick_sterling/2022/02/24/how-the-us-instigated-the-ukraine-crisis/ phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 March 6, 2022 Ukraine And The United States Rule Of Law By M. E. Boyd “The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.” The Budapest Memorandum, 1994. The Russian Federation broke that obligation in the 2014 annexation of Crimea and now the 2022 full-scale invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine. This is not the first time that Russians have sought to eliminate the Ukrainian people. Here is that story: In 1922, when Joseph Stalin came to power in the Soviet Union, he instigated a series of plans to try and bring his Communist empire into the modernized industrial world. As in all Communist societies, he was not above killing people to get them to the enviable position in society that he had in mind for them. The Ukrainian villages were home to very industrious and independent people who grew the wheat and rye that Stalin used as the instrument of payment for the industrial equipment needed to bring the empire into parity with the West as quickly as possible. Wheat for machines; more wheat for machines; all the wheat for machines. The resistant Ukrainian farms were collectivized. The grain quotas kept increasing. There were no working tractors. There was unrest as the poor and middle peasantry resisted efforts to take from them what they had worked so hard to obtain – a little land of their own – a culture of their own – solid families of their own – a religion of their own. At first, troublesome persons were simply deported to faraway corners of the Soviet Union with nothing but the clothes on their backs. All their property was confiscated. “[Peasants] were unloaded into the snow about six feet deep. The frost registered at 75 degrees below zero . . . Without even an axe or a saw [they] began building huts from tree branches.” (The Great Famine of 1932-33, Bohdan Krawchenko.) Most froze to death. By 1932, the quotas for each Ukrainian family amounted to essentially 100% of what they grew. Stalin left no grain for the farmer and his family. Seed grain was taken, as well. Armed brigades took every morsel of food. Anyone attempting to retain or steal a sack of wheat was shot by a firing squad. The Terror-Famine had begun. Subjugating the independent-minded Ukrainian became public policy. The children and elderly died right away. Some parents killed their children to keep them from suffering and then killed themselves from the guilt. Orphans sat in ditches and awaited death. The streets were littered with the emaciated bodies of grown men and women. Cannibalism emerged. The West noticed. International relief efforts were attempted. Stalin let it be known that relief was unnecessary as the famine was nothing more than Western propaganda to embarrass the great Soviet Union. Of the most talented and intelligent Ukrainians, 80% were purged by deportation, starvation, or firing squad. Estimates of the final death toll are just estimates. At least 4.5 to 6 million people died. Image: Starved peasants on Kharkiv streets (1933). Public domain. Once before, in 1921, Lenin made an appeal to the United States for relief from famine. Then-Secretary of Commerce, Herbert Hoover, provided that relief and the Soviet Union acknowledged that twenty million lives had been saved. Stalin came to power the very next year. In 1933, at the height of the Ukrainian genocide, America recognized the Soviet Union. So, here we are again – more of the same story. A shattered Budapest Memorandum. A destructive Russian invasion. Assassination squads to decapitate the Ukrainian government. A Holocaust survivor, in her nineties, arrested in Russia for objecting to the slaughter. An elderly Ukrainian woman, crushed in her car by a Russian tank that may have deliberately crossed a highway to run over her. The world is in a state of shock and fear. We dare not arm the Ukrainians after the invasion of Crimea and risk upsetting Putin, it is thought. We dare not help with air cover lest we start WWIII, all agree. Russia cares more than we do, so a well-known TV pundit tells us. We have no national interest in Ukraine, announces a hysterical conservative cable host. What does the American Rule of Law say? It says that Moral Law, right versus wrong, is our highest governing principle and our most important bundle of Law. Our Law says we must do everything we can, within moral boundaries ourselves (calling for “taking out” Putin is not within those boundaries), and in concert with other principled nations, to stop another genocide of the Ukrainian people. We must not only do the right thing, but we must also refrain from doing the wrong thing. We cannot purchase 6 billion dollars of Russian oil per day and comply with Moral Law. The United States is funding this Russian invasion. Every Ukrainian death is paid for with American dollars. Thank You Biden In Dante’s Divine Comedy, Upper Hell has a Vestibule. It is filled with persons Dante calls Opportunists. These are persons who are neither faithful nor unfaithful, good nor evil, decisive nor indecisive, principled nor unprincipled, who take no stands, one way or another. Dante sees them running around aimlessly waving a banner, being stung by bees and hornets for eternity. They merit no classification. Hearing their cries and wails, Dante asks his guide, “[What] souls are these . . .?” [The answer] “These are the nearly soulless whose lives concluded neither blame nor praise. . .Mercy and Justice deny them even a name.” Dante describes their plight. “These wretches . . .ran naked in a swarm of wasps and hornets that goaded them the more the more they fled, and made their faces stream with bloody gouts of pus and tears that dribbled to their feet to be swallowed there by loathsome worms and maggots.” A detached America is beginning to feel Dante’s sting – the Vestibule awaits us. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 6, 2022 Author Share Posted March 6, 2022 Let's also not forget that Joe Biden, as vice president, backed the 2014 coup and his son, Hunter Biden, received a very high-paying job at Burisma with no experience in return. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 It isn"t a question of forgetting anything Biden is responsible for. Putin and Putin alone invaded Ukraine, targeting and killing women and children and the rest of the horror he is inflicting on Ukraine. Ukraine is not invading and doing same in Russia. Biden/US is of course paying the cost of Russian invasion. Most US Citizens do not appear to be concerned what Biden family has done in the past concerning Ukraine. Nor the fact we are importing much dirtier oil than drilling our much cleaner product here. It sounds like it is possible rather than consuming our own we will be doing business with Iran and Venezuela. None of that put a gun to Bidens head and forced him to invade another country and commit the atrocities he has the past few days. Especially for a man you have declared a christian Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 7, 2022 Members Share Posted March 7, 2022 21 hours ago, Humble Disciple said: I don't agree with everything Putin has ever done, but he's a devout Christian, Really????? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 I don't expect the average person to know what I am talking about on Russia and Ukraine because it's just not reported on mainstream media. The foreign policy reporters who've recently appeared on Jimmy Dore's YouTube channel explain these things better than I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, phkrause said: Really????? Putin's main objective as a national leader is to restore Russia as an Orthodox Christian empire, as it was before the Soviet Union. That doesn't mean he's perfect or that everything he does is right, but neither are American presidents, who claim to be Christian, right in every decision they make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 4 hours ago, bonnie said: It isn"t a question of forgetting anything Biden is responsible for. Putin and Putin alone invaded Ukraine, targeting and killing women and children and the rest of the horror he is inflicting on Ukraine. Ukraine is not invading and doing same in Russia. Biden/US is of course paying the cost of Russian invasion. Most US Citizens do not appear to be concerned what Biden family has done in the past concerning Ukraine. Nor the fact we are importing much dirtier oil than drilling our much cleaner product here. It sounds like it is possible rather than consuming our own we will be doing business with Iran and Venezuela. None of that put a gun to Bidens head and forced him to invade another country and commit the atrocities he has the past few days. Especially for a man you have declared a christian Russia is not allowed to join NATO. A stated reason why Putin chose to invade was the push to accept Ukraine as a NATO country, and how NATO countries like the United States have been arming Ukraine for a future confrontation with Russia. Please imagine what would happen if the United States were not allowed to join NATO, and NATO countries were pushing for Mexico to join NATO, and armed Mexico with missiles pointed at the United States. Do you think that our president, regardless of who is in office, would take that lightly? Putin's other stated reason for invading Ukraine is the persecution of Russian-speakers in the Donbus region of Ukraine, where 14,000 people have been killed since 2014. The Ukrainian national guard, in order to fight Russian separatists in Donbas, has accepted Azov, a neo-Nazi paramilitary group, into its ranks, and Azov doesn't care about how many innocent people are killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 The only reason I am sharing these things is to help others stop and think before taking Ukraine's side in this war. It's better to take neither side, and pray that a peace agreement is reached as soon as possible. If this escalates, we are risking World War III and global nuclear annihilation. Morwenna 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 8, 2022 Members Share Posted March 8, 2022 22 hours ago, Humble Disciple said: Putin's main objective as a national leader is to restore Russia as an Orthodox Christian empire, as it was before the Soviet Union. That doesn't mean he's perfect or that everything he does is right, but neither are American presidents, who claim to be Christian, right in every decision they make. No he doesn't!! He could careless about the people in Ukraine or even the people in Russia!!!!!!!!!!! And no one said anyone is perfect that's for sure. But putin is not a christian, he is a devout Communist, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 8, 2022 Author Share Posted March 8, 2022 A peace deal called the Minsk Agreement was already reached in 2015, which gave more self-governance to the Russian-speaking Donbas region of Ukraine and stopped the fighting. However, the agreement has never been implemented, and 14,000 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in Donbas since the agreement was signed. Before invading Ukraine, Putin gave Zelenskyy the opportunity to implement the agreement once and for all and Zelenskyy refused. I am not saying that I agree with the invasion, but it's not like Putin woke up one morning and decided to invade for no reason, which is what the mainstream media is telling us. I'm sure it's also on Putin's mind that, as vice president, Joe Biden supported the coup against Ukraine's Russia-friendly president in 2014, and his son, Hunter Biden, subsequently received a lucrative job on the board of Burisma, without any past experience in the energy industry. Recently, Zelenskyy has shut down opposition TV stations in Ukraine. Besides Russia, Ukraine ranks as the most corrupt nation in Europe. I pray that an end to this conflict is reached as soon as possible, without involving America's military, which could almost certainly trigger World War III, especially if Russia's ally, China, gets involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 8, 2022 Author Share Posted March 8, 2022 15 hours ago, phkrause said: No he doesn't!! He could careless about the people in Ukraine or even the people in Russia!!!!!!!!!!! And no one said anyone is perfect that's for sure. But putin is not a christian, he is a devout Communist, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!! Are you being serious? If he were a devout communist, what is the evidence of it in today's Russia? Like the Tsars, Putin is a defender of the Russian Orthodox Church and traditional Christian values, whereas the Soviet communists hated Christianity and bombed churches. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 9, 2022 Members Share Posted March 9, 2022 9 hours ago, Humble Disciple said: Are you being serious? If he were a devout communist, what is the evidence of it in today's Russia? Like the Tsars, Putin is a defender of the Russian Orthodox Church and traditional Christian values, whereas the Soviet communists hated Christianity and bombed churches. Right!! Who have you been listening to??? The man is trying to put the old Soviet Union back together. He's out to rid the world of Ukrainians and especially all the Jews that live in Ukraine!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 15 minutes ago, phkrause said: Right!! Who have you been listening to??? The man is trying to put the old Soviet Union back together. He's out to rid the world of Ukrainians and especially all the Jews that live in Ukraine!! Are you being serious? As I've already explained in this thread, there are streets and monuments in modern-day Ukraine named after Nazi collaborators and Azov, a faction of real-life neo-Nazis, serves in the Ukrainian national guard. Do you think that Azov cares about the Jews who live in Ukraine? Neo-Nazis already participated in the 2014 coup, and they are willing to kill Zellensyy if he crosses them and recognizes the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine as self-governing states. Putin isn't trying to put the atheist/communist Soviet union back together. Instead, he's trying to put Tsarist Russia back together, a Russian Orthodox Christian empire. Do you know anything about Russian history from before the Soviet Union? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 On 3/6/2022 at 6:18 PM, Humble Disciple said: The only reason I am sharing these things is to help others stop and think before taking Ukraine's side in this war. It's better to take neither side, and pray that a peace agreement is reached as soon as possible. If this escalates, we are risking World War III and global nuclear annihilation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 9, 2022 Author Share Posted March 9, 2022 https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-crying-russian-prisoners-could-violate-the-geneva-conventions-20220307-p5a2f7.html Russian prisoners of war are getting beat up and forced to make videotaped concessions of war crimes, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Can someone please explain again why we should be taking Ukraine's side in this war? I've already given numerous reasons why we shouldn't. I hope that a peace agreement is reached as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 9, 2022 Members Share Posted March 9, 2022 17 hours ago, Humble Disciple said: As I've already explained in this thread, there are streets and monuments in modern-day Ukraine named after Nazi collaborators and Azov, a faction of real-life neo-Nazis, serves in the Ukrainian national guard. Just because there are Nazis in the country, just like in the US, doesn't mean this has one thing to do with why putin is invading!! 17 hours ago, Humble Disciple said: Do you think that Azov cares about the Jews who live in Ukraine? Neo-Nazis already participated in the 2014 coup, and they are willing to kill Zellensyy if he crosses them and recognizes the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine as self-governing states. Here's an article about this: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/ What I see missing here is there is not one word about what Zellenskyy is doing about this situation! It seems just like this country there's not a lot he can do! 17 hours ago, Humble Disciple said: Putin isn't trying to put the atheist/communist Soviet union back together. Instead, he's trying to put Tsarist Russia back together, a Russian Orthodox Christian empire. Do you know anything about Russian history from before the Soviet Union? Sorry that's what I meant, but he is no christian, they treated the Jews unfairly and so will putin! And by the way Russia is no better than the old Soviet Union!!!!! Both have/had dictators ruling them!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 11, 2022 Author Share Posted March 11, 2022 Here is another article on how literal neo-Nazis are fighting on the Ukraine side in this war, and how they were also involved in the 2014 coup: https://www.salon.com/2022/03/10/are-there-really-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine-well-yes--but-its-a-long-story/ Putin's stated reason for invading Ukraine is Zelenskyy's refusal to uphold the Minsk agreements, which would give self-governance to the Russian-speaking Donbas region of Ukraine. Instead, Zelenskyy has allowed Azov Battalion, literal neo-Nazis who serve in the Ukrainian national guard, to kill people in the Donbas region indescriminately. Neo-Nazis in Ukraine have already threatened to kill Zelenskyy if he crosses them by making concessions to Russian-speaking territories. Since the 2014 coup, which removed Ukraine's Russia-friendly president, at least 14,000 people have been killed in the Donbas region of Ukraine, mostly civilians. Putin's invasion, rather than unprovoked, is putting to an end this civil war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 11, 2022 Author Share Posted March 11, 2022 I would like to once again say that I am not supporting Putin's decision to invade Ukraine. As a matter of principle, I am anti-war. What I am saying is that the mainstream media is lying to you, claiming that Putin is just an evil dictator who invaded Ukraine for no reason. In reality, Russian-speakers in Ukraine have been under military bombardment, in violation of the Minsk agreements, since the US-backed and EU-backed coup in 2014. In reality, neo-Nazis participated in that coup and then infiltrated different facets of Ukraine's government, including the Azov Battalion being allowed into the national guard. This is a war in which there is no clear "good guy," despite the constant stream of propaganda to support the Ukraine side. My hope is that a peace agreement will be reached as soon as possible, that is satisfying to both Russia and Ukraine, whether the Ukrainian neo-Nazis like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 12, 2022 Author Share Posted March 12, 2022 It's very naive to think that the mainstream media and American politicians actually care about the people of Ukraine. Instead, Ukraine is being used as a proxy war against Putin, just as Afghanistan was used as a proxy war against the Soviets. Just as the United States government propped up Islamic extremists in Afghanistan against the Soviets, literal neo-Nazis are now being propped up against Putin, and even Facebook is complicit: https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Disciple Posted March 12, 2022 Author Share Posted March 12, 2022 Even the official NATO Twitter page posted an image of a female Ukrainian soldier with the Nazi black sun symbol on her uniform: https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-soldiers-apparent-nazi-symbol-tweet-1686523 This is not some sort of Russian disinformation. It's very simplistic and naive to just assume Ukrainians are the good guys and that Putin is an evil dictator who invaded for no reason. There's much more to it than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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