I'm on the Pope's side on this one

[Kountzer]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14866559/site/newsweek/

[Dr. Shane]

The Pope must die, says Muslim

Quote:

Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be "subject to capital punishment".

A bunch of hate-filled, cry babies is how these radicals are coming off. Some think the US needs to be concerned about what their world image is. I would say that Islam needs to be concerned about what its world image is.

The only thing I find odd about the pope's remarks is it is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.

[Aliensanctuary]

Wouldn't these nasty, hateful little people (Muslim Extremists) love to conquer the world and usher in a bloody new era of the Dark Ages?

[Bravus]

Do you like all Christians being judged by Fred Phelps? It's no fairer to judge all Muslims by a few extremists.

[Bravus]

What the Pope did was equivalent to a Muslim Imam saying, in a hugely public way "Show me what this Jesus Christ brought that is new except hate and darkness". I think we'd be concerned about that, and protest, and demand an apology. We mightn't declare a fatwa and call for their death... but how many Americans have you heard call for the deaths of extremist Muslims? Heaps.

This is not cultural relativism I'm displaying here, but cultural absolutism: if it's wrong for one culture it's wrong for all.

[Bravus]

...and it is a little weird for me to hear an SDA say "I'm on the Pope's side" in an international holy war...

[Dr. Shane]

Take note of my position:

Quote:

The only thing I find odd about the pope's remarks is it is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.

Jesus really didn't bring anything new. He shed light on what was already revealed. He told the religious leaders of His day they were in error because they knew not the Scriptures (Old Testement).

Quote:

It's no fairer to judge all Muslims by a few extremists.

Problem is that polls show about 30% of Muslims are sympethetic to the fundamentalists and many of the remaining 70% are afraid of the 30%. So there we are.

[Kountzer]

Muslims say disparaging things about Jesus, and christianity all the time. Nothing new there.

It is kind of odd, and revealing, to condemn the Pope, or anyone else, for suggesting that your religion leads to violence, and then prove them right by burning popular figures in effigy, and shooting to death a nun and her body guard, shooting them in the back no less.

[Amelia]

Muslims may say things about Jesus but most Christians don't respond by calling for the death of every Muslim who peeps a word.

[Nicodema]

...and it is a little weird for me to hear an SDA say "I'm on the Pope's side" in an international holy war...

Well, now we know what side they will be on when it comes down to global civil war in the end ... those who take up the sword die by the sword. Those who take up the hate-rhetoric of those they hate to spew it at those they hate, will remain hateful. They will despise the true children of god and they will denigrate and eventually destroy the peacemakers that stand in the way of their agenda. It hath been foretold, and it hath ever been thus.

[there buster]

Actually, I don't see cultural relativism in such statements, more like moral confusion.

Even taking the worst meaning of the Pope's words--which we can count on many Muslims to do-- the situation is this:

Pope: Islam is evil.

Muslims: Don't call us evil, or we'll behead you.

Virtually every day in Muslim newspapers, from their mosques, and on their media, Jews and Christians are defamed in far worse terms. Yet we don't find Jewish or Christian suicide bombers blowing up Muslim schoolbuses. You don't find Christian or Jewish groups beheading Muslims and putting the video out for everyone to see.

I wouldn't put it in terms of "being on the Pope's side," I would put it in terms of being on the side of civilization vs. barbarity.

The moral equivalence of the left has come to this: the inability to distinguish between a harsh remark and grisly act of murder.

Every day people on this forum condemn other Christians in the harshest of terms, indicating that those who disagree with them are on the side of the devil. Yet they take deep offense if someone suggests their arguments are not coherent.

It worries me.

[Bravus]

As opposed to invading a country in order to kill muslim extremists and killing tens of thousands of civilians? I know, we've been through that one before. If you don't think that, at least for Bush and some in his party and definitely for some of the soldiers there as well, what's going on in Iraq is about 'don't call us evil or we'll bomb you', you have bigger things to worry about than liberals.

No moral confusion: killing in the name of your God is wrong, whether you're Muslim or Christian.

[there buster]

Quote:

Well, now we know what side they will be on when it comes down to global civil war in the end ... those who take up the sword die by the sword. Those who take up the hate-rhetoric of those they hate to spew it at those they hate, will remain hateful. They will despise the true children of god and they will denigrate and eventually destroy the peacemakers that stand in the way of their agenda. It hath been foretold, and it hath ever been thus.

And who are we talking to today?

[Bravus]

Quote:

Muslims may say things about Jesus but most Christians don't respond by calling for the death of every Muslim who peeps a word.

True, most Christians don't: some definitely do. Most Muslims don't, some do.

[there buster]

Quote:

If you don't think that, at least for Bush and soem in his party and definitely for some of the soldiers there as well, that what's going on in Iraq is about 'don't call us evil or we'll bomb you', you have bigger things to worry about than liberals.

Yeah, that's it. On September 11, 2001, Muslims called us evil, so we bombed them

And before that, when Muslims bombed the Cole and killed sailors, that was them "calling us evil," so we bombed them.

And at the Khobar towers, another case of Muslims "calling us evil," so we bombed them.

And in Jordan. And when terrorists blew up the UN headquarters in Baghdad, all that was Muslims "calling us evil," so we bombed them.

And the embassy in Africa was Muslims "calling us evil," so we bombed them.

And in 1993, when they bombed the WTC the first time, that was Muslims "calling us evil," so we bombed them.

ANd the Marine barracks in Lebanon, that was Muslims "calling us evil," so we bombed them.

And Bali, and Madrid, and London, and the Phillippines, and repeated homicide bombings in Israel, and hijacking airliners, and beating young seaman Steatham to death because he was an American. And the Pentagon, and the flight in Pennsylvania. And when Iraq raped Kuwait, and for 13 years when Iraq violated the treaty and UN resolutions, firing on coalition air forces. And when Sadaam gassed the Kurds, and when he massacred the Shias in Basra, and when he destroyed the marshes and a way of life in Iraq. All that was them "calling us evil."

Yeah, good point.

[there buster]

Quote:

Quote:

Muslims may say things about Jesus but most Christians don't respond by calling for the death of every Muslim who peeps a word.

True, most Christians don't: some definitely do. Most Muslims don't, some do.

Christians who call for "death of every Muslim"

Most Christians: 99+% Some Christians: <1.0%

Muslims who think terrorism is justified(Jordan, for example).

Most Muslims : 43% Some Muslims: 57%

Another sterling point.

[Bravus]

September 11 had zero link to Iraq.

(I was tempted to go ALL CAPS, or copy and paste it a hundred times, because it doesn't seem to be getting through, but meh.)

And Saddam was a secular dictator, so his acts are irrelevant to Islam.

See, this is the problem - the stereotyping that ties all Arabs and all Muslims to the actions of a few extremists, and the complete confusion about who did what to whom.

If the Iraq war was about Saddam, then it is America attacking a secular dictator because it doesn't like his actions and policies. (And 'firing on American planes'? Yeah, American planes in Iraqi airspace!)

On the other hand, if the war in Iraq is about September 11 and the other terrorist attacks you mentioned... then that is beating some random passerby on the street because someone completely different slashed your tires. It's the act of a confused tyrant and bully.

My point all along here - and it's borne out in your message above - is that you use 'Muslims' when you mean 'Al Qaeda terrorists'. That's the same as using 'Christians' when you mean 'The BTK serial killer'.

The appropriate response to extremist terrorists of whatever stripe is to deal with those terrorists in a strong, coordinated, focused law enforcement way, not to stereotype all of their coreligionists.

[Bravus]

Those stats on Christians come from where?

[Dr. Shane]

The only connection the Bush Administration has made between 9/11 and Iraq is that 9/11 taught us that our enemies are real and want to kill us. This Administration never claimed that Iraq was involved in 9/11. However it did claim that Iraq was our enemy and 9/11 taught us not to underestimate our enemies.

Quote:

Saddam was a secular dictator, so his acts are irrelevant to Islam

Well, yes and no. He was a secular dictator but he saw use for fundamentalist groups. He did financially support jihad in Israel. He also sheltered terrorist groups training in Iraq. We now have audio recordings of a meeting in 1996 where he was discussing using terrorists to attack the US on American soil.

So it is not so easy to seperate Saddam from Islam like it is with Chavez or Castro.

Quote:

(And 'firing on American planes'? Yeah, American planes in Iraqi airspace!)

Well again, yes and no. American planes were in the no-fly zone. Rememer that Iraq attacked its neighbors with scud missles. Therefore no-fly zones were established in the south to protect Kuwait and in the north to protect the Kurds. While it was technically Iraqi air space, Saddam had agreed to allow the UN to enforce the no-fly zone, which is what the US was doing.

[Amelia]

So are there Christian extremist groups out there terrorizing Muslims? Why do the Muslim extremists get so much air time but we dont hear about or from Christian extremists?

[Bravus]

(response to both Ed and Amelia)

'Terrorism' is a tactic used by those who don't have access to billion dollar bombers with which to attack their enemies. So the stats Ed quoted are probably right when that special word 'terrorism' is used. If we were to change the stats to 'violence directed against enemies', the stat for American Christians would likely be more like 60% for, 40% against. (that's a guess)

[Nicodema]

Quote:

Well, now we know what side they will be on when it comes down to global civil war in the end ... those who take up the sword die by the sword. Those who take up the hate-rhetoric of those they hate to spew it at those they hate, will remain hateful. They will despise the true children of god and they will denigrate and eventually destroy the peacemakers that stand in the way of their agenda. It hath been foretold, and it hath ever been thus.

And who are we talking to today?

Was it unclear whom I addressed in my post?

[Nicodema]

This Administration never claimed that Iraq was involved in 9/11.

I'm sorry Shane, but this statement is patently false. This administration most certainly DID claim ties between 9/11 and Iraq. Repeatedly.

[there buster]

I just want to know who's talking about "the other side."

[there buster]

Quote:

'Terrorism' is a tactic used by those who don't have access to billion dollar bombers

Yeah, right. That's why thugs, robbers, and criminals in every culture resort to kidnapping, random murder, etc.

Or you could hijack commercial airliners filled with people who are doing no one harm, and then fly them into a building where other people are just going about their business. And kill them all because you "don't have access to a bomber."

Wow, I don't have access to $1 million dollars. Why don't I just take some little child hostage and threaten to kill it, because I don't have accsss to a better way of making money.

The Muslims have been taking hostages for centuries. The very word "assassin" comes from Shia Muslim fanatics who would get high on hashish in order to go murder someone they disagreed with.

Yeah, terrorism is just a special word, not a reprehesnible word, I note, but a "special" one. Well, maybe that's the problem. The madrasas who teach children to become homicide bombers aren't getting a terrorist education, they're getting a "special" education.

Muslims have failed societies. Not failed because of anyone else's oppression, but failed because of their internal corruption and contradictions. We don't "have access to billion dollar bombers," we BUILD them. The Israelis build aircraft. Israel's neighbors have oil to provide income, and American aid, and they produce-- suicide bombers.

They don't lack money, we pay them billions. It isn't financial bankrupty that's the problem, terrorism is a tactic used and endorsed by the morally bankrupt.