GHansen Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 Watering while Black: anatomy of a pastor's Alabama arrest | AP News Interesting story here. The "victim" narrative breaks down when the pastor refuses to identify himself. Simple thing to show an ID. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted September 12, 2022 Share Posted September 12, 2022 Thanks for that story. What year are we in? 1950? "When will they ever learn?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted September 13, 2022 Author Share Posted September 13, 2022 The "pastor" has now initiated a lawsuit. In the end, racial issues overrule most everything. Sounds more like a blm type than a Christian pastor. People bring trouble upon themselves, cry racism when racism has nothing to do with the problem; then, want to get paid. In the 60s, a Black young man was driving drunk down a major boulevard, swerving across lanes. Note that anyone injured or killed in an accident would have likely been black. This incident occurred in a community that was mostly Black. The driver was handcuffed. Somehow, his mother arrived at the scene. She physically attacked one of the officers. In review. a Black man was driving in a very reckless manner, endangering property and lives of Black people. This dangerous behavior was stopped by white officers who were then attacked by members of the community, specifically, the mother of the drunk driver. Other [black] people got involved. That was the beginning of the Watts riots. If you want to avoid problems with law enforcement personnel, obey the law. Be respectful and cooperative. If people of any color want to fight, produce or acquire a weapon, flee, turn a criminal matter into a social justice cause, problems will arise. phkrause and Gustave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted September 13, 2022 Moderators Share Posted September 13, 2022 You have said: If you want to avoid problems with law enforcement personnel, obey the law. Be respectful and cooperative. I have substantial agreement with that. It should be noted that my 2nd oldest son will retire in early October from a job of working many years in law enforcement. But, you did not cite the applicable law that was involved in this case. I ask you what law gave those police officers to demand that he identify himself and then arrest him for a failure to do so? The pastor has filed a lawsuit on the following basis: * The police were trespassing on that property, and without legal justification for being on the property. A person watering flowers is not justification to think that a crime is being committed. * It is pure racism if the justification was that a "black" person was watering the flowers. * The applicable State law only allowed for the police to demand identification if the person is in a "public" place. A person watering flowers on private property is not in a public place and therefore the pastor was not required to produce identification. * Your reference to an 80 year old case has no relationship to the legal issues in this case. NOTE: If it had been me, I would have produced identification. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted September 13, 2022 Author Share Posted September 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said: You have said: I have substantial agreement with that. It should be noted that my 2nd oldest son will retire in early October from a job of working many years in law enforcement. But, you did not cite the applicable law that was involved in this case. I ask you what law gave those police officers to demand that he identify himself and then arrest him for a failure to do so? The pastor has filed a lawsuit on the following basis: * The police were trespassing on that property, and without legal justification for being on the property. A person watering flowers is not justification to think that a crime is being committed. * It is pure racism if the justification was that a "black" person was watering the flowers. * The applicable State law only allowed for the police to demand identification if the person is in a "public" place. A person watering flowers on private property is not in a public place and therefore the pastor was not required to produce identification. * Your reference to an 80 year old case has no relationship to the legal issues in this case. NOTE: If it had been me, I would have produced identification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted September 13, 2022 Author Share Posted September 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said: NOTE: If it had been me, I would have produced identification. That's because you don't have an attitude problem. The so-called racist abuse of mostly Black people usually begins with individuals refusing to cooperate with police. That was the case in the Watts riots, Rodney King, George Floyd, and other contemporary events. When police detain someone, the first thing they do is assess the attitude of the detainee. It only takes a few seconds. It involves an assessment of body language, tone of voice, remarks, and the like. A bad attitude on the detainee's part is more likely to lead to an unfavorable outcome. Whether the actions of the police were perfectly legal or not, producing an identification is an easy thing to do. The police were responding to a complaint from a neighbor who said ~there was a strange car in the driveway and a man who wasn't supposed to be there was there. Technically legal or not, that is common sense justification for the police to ask for identification, identification that most likely would have resolved the situation. A prison chaplain once asked me if I knew how to tell when an inmate is lying. I didn't know. "His lips are moving," he responded. Again, it's perfectly reasonable for an officer to ask for "proof" of identity. The house could have been full of dead bodies or about to be broken into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 Agree with GHansen here, this is a classic "professional victim". He's contributing to the stereotype and that nonsense HAS to stop before anything can get any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricy45er Posted October 6, 2022 Share Posted October 6, 2022 interesting story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHansen Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 Regarding the Watts riots: Los Angeles decided to do something for the Black community after the Watts riots; consequently, a hospital was constructed in the Willowbrook area, located between Watts and Compton. The hospital was named King/Drew Memorial Hospital. The administrators and staff were primarily people of color [Black]. It became known as "Killer King" due to the number of deaths and injuries resulting from indifference, incompetence, and other factors leading to unexpectedly grim outcomes for patients. It was also riddled by corruption at the administrative level. The hospital was eventually closed. https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-kingdrewpulitzer-sg-storygallery.html "Killer King" L.A. Hospital In Peril - CBS News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonmarri Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 All of this to say what? It is the same old song that blacks are labeled and made to look down for what a few have done. Will you write about how whites came to this land and gave Indians blankets that had smallpox to kill them to get their land? Will you show how black people did not ask to come here but were taken to be enslaved because of the color of their skin? The greatest lie is blaming Ham when his brothers are standing outside the tent. Why did he go in and realize his father was naked? Here, the Scriptures made it very clear: he called out to his brothers and told them to get their father some clothes. Yet, the lie claimed he was making fun of his father or touching his father. Nowhere in that Chapter did it remotely state these lies that have been passed down for centuries. First, by the Pharisees and then the Europeans claiming Christianity, which was supposed to be started by YAHWEH! The word was given by Greeks in Antioch, and the Europeans claimed that the disciples and Apostles accepted it. Funny, the Bible stated that disciples and apostles called themselves The Way! You would think that YAHSHUA becoming flesh would have told the disciple that! Why is it only found three times in the Bible, and not one disciple or apostle ever called themselves that word? Also, when Paul was knocked off his horse, THE MESSIAH told him to go to the people who called themselves The Way. Now, I do not want anyone to assume what I am saying! So let me be clear: I believe in the Scriptures that are written in the Paleo Hebrew Language that Moses used and all the writers of the Old Testament. The New Testament I accept is the Paleo Hebrew or the Peshitta language. I accept these translations where words are not changed, but I use the English language related to these two grammar structures to reflect them correctly! I also used various Bibles written for their pros and cons that change words, which YAHWEH, THE SON, and the prophets firmly said not to do! I also get my help from Biblehub and Strong, and I have some issues with Brown-Driver and Briggs. I accept EGW, who said to take the Scriptures. I also used Logos, which I have used for over thirty years, and the SDA Commentary! Why did Noah get drunk? Why did Moses list the three sons and then say that Ham was the father of Kenaan and not Canaan! Noah woke up from his stupor and knew that Kenaan, his youngest grandson, was appointed! Surprise! Biblehub had to show the truth even though they tried not to, but here are the true Paleo Hebrew (Sidonan's language, Moses used to provide the truth): 699a qaton: (small, young, youngest); a prim. root: 1121 ben: (From banah; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson); a prim. root: 6213a: do, make: (accomplish much)! Instead it was wrote in English that Noah woke an knew what his son had done unto him. A total lie! Kenaan was given the birthright and his children acommplish what he was annointed to do. The are as follow: 1. Kenaan new YAHWEH and his children and also the Philliestine. Chapter Twenty 2. Melchizedek a Jebusite one of the Kenaanite tribe. He as the King and Priest of THE MOST HIGH EL, who is THE FATHER! His city was originally written as Urusalim and Abraham repeated the same praise. He also in Psa 110:4, Heb 5:6; 7:17. This show proof that Abramham learned from them. 3. Kenaan children begin to turn from YAHWEH. Gen 15: 16--21; Chapter Nineteen; Eze Chapter Twenty-Eight 4. The lineage of YAHSHUA! Tamar was the daughter-in-law of Judah and she had twins from him. She started it, Salma and Rahab (the whore who helped the spies in Jericho a Kenaanite). Rahab had Boaz who married Ruth, (Ruth was a Moabite she was mixed with Lot and his daughter who got him drunk. She had had Moab and her sister had Ben-Ammi. Their mother was a Sodomite and her family came from Kenaan) Gen 19:32-38; Ruth had Obed and Obed had Jessie. Jessie had David who killed Uriah and married Bathsheba,1Ch 2:12, 15. Bathsheba eventuly had Solomon. 1Ch 3:5 Now in Matthew Chapter one shows completely linage to YAHSHUA by the four Kenaanite women! Why did I write about this because Kenaan was nor Ham should have been accused of a lie due to racist. It is time for all to know the truth so stop picking on us because we are black. Noah had three sons and they were related. Sin came into the sons' children who brought in hate. It is time to move on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 31 Moderators Share Posted October 31 Paleo Hebrew is an alphabetic script that is used to state a language (Hebrew) in written form. It is not, and never has been a language. In the early days of the Hebrew nation, their written language used the Paleo Hebrew alphabet. At a later time, the Hebrew people changed their alphabet to the Aramaic Square Script. That was not a change in language. It was simply a change in the manner of writing Hebrew. The Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible that are used today are generally written in the Aramaic Square Script, as few Biblical scholars are able to read the Paleo Hebrew script. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted November 6 Share Posted November 6 Always left out of the condemnation of the european settlers and the Indian tribes in the treatment of the Indians by the whites was simply a continuation of the times and culture. Indian tribes committed genocide, rapes, murders, stealing land of other tribes before Columbus was simply a way of life. Only became something to condemn when the european settlers acted in kind. The way the settlers treated the Indians was horrific ,but no more so than the way they treated one another. Raised in that era and with what was normal thinking of the day who would any of us have been? It is hard to fathom any one thinking stealing land from another, rape, genocide, selling another human being was right or normal but it was a different time. Again raised in that era who would anyone on this forum have been? The same as you are now? I highly doubt that. Same with the slave trade. I cant think of a more hideous career or way to make a living. Africans sold other africans for a good deal of money. That is undeniable. Africans were slave owners. Yet that is never a part of the condemnation of the white race. In that time and place, reared with the same mentality , who as an african would any of us been? Who as a white trader would any of us been ? I as a white person could never now behave in that fashion, I am not responsible for what was done to the Indian people,nor what took place with slavery. I did not purchase africans from other africans, yet it is always brought in any discussion like this where race is involved as if we are still responsible. No one alive today in the US owned slaves,no one alive today was a slave. No one alive today was given a smallpox infected blanket, no Indian alive today took part in a massacre of another tribe . Again to those that seem to relish the wrongdoing of one side who would you have been in the Indian tribes before Columbus and who would you have been as a african selling other blacks for a great deal of money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theophilus Posted Saturday at 12:02 AM Share Posted Saturday at 12:02 AM On 10/29/2024 at 10:39 PM, stinsonmarri said: Here, the Scriptures made it very clear: he called out to his brothers and told them to get their father some clothes. Where does it say that? where does it say Noah lied? I am in agreement with you about bias towards race, but I don't think it is necessary to make Ham look like a good guy just to try to prove prejudice way back. There is good and bad in every family. what does Ham have to do with this pastor? GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonmarri Posted Sunday at 05:02 AM Share Posted Sunday at 05:02 AM 23 hours ago, Theophilus said: Where does it say that? where does it say Noah lied? I am in agreement with you about bias towards race, but I don't think it is necessary to make Ham look like a good guy just to try to prove prejudice way back. There is good and bad in every family. what does Ham have to do with this pastor? You know what, Theophilus? It is so sad that because Ham went into the tent and realized his father was naked, you would make something so senseless out of that. Let's see, did Ham tell his brothers? Did Moses write that Ham took a long time to say to his brothers? Did Moses write that Ham touched his father? Were his brothers standing outside? Did you think and ask what made him go in alone when all three were at the tent? No, you didn't. Here is what you said: "I don't think it is necessary to make Ham look like a good guy to try to prove prejudice way back." You were not only discriminatory, you were biased! Nothing in that verse indicated that Ham did anything to his father! All it shows is that Ham went in alone while his brothers stayed outside. It also shows that when Ham realizes his father is naked, he tells his brothers. Mose then provides that the brothers were told about their father being naked, so they were aware to go in backward to cover him. It also shows that Ham did not stay in the tent during the time that his brothers covered their father! Moses also wrote why Ham went alone and why he did not wait! It also shows why the brothers stayed outside and then did what Ham requested and knew why he left! Ham or any person should have never been accused by the color of their skin or for any reason to check on their father, mind you, who was drunk! The reason why this is so outlandish is because it has happened so many times, even to this present day. What on earth would people lie about this unless they were full of hatred? People of all ethnicities have gone in alone and covered up their naked husbands, cousins, fathers, uncles, or whoever, and no one has accused them of such an egregious lie! Did anyone ask or question why Moses indicated twice that Ham was the father of Kenaan? I have never seen it done. Have you? If anyone has noticed this, I hope that they will come forward and state it! You see, what makes the writers in the Bible so unique are the signs, and only THE HOLY SPIRIT can lead you into all truth! The Bible shows that you do not need any private interpretation because it will explain itself! What would make a man like Noah, who listened and obeyed, fall from grace in such an embarrassing way? It had to be a biggy! Did one ever think that we, in many ways, act like ELOHIYM because we are made like THEM and still do things like THEM? We have signs: tests and quizzes—we do this all the time! So, what are YAHWEH'S? It is the meaning of people's names in the Bible days. Look up their names and certain words that are tied to the names. I will state again that Noah woke up, and the English language was fixed to make it appear to be understood a certain way, but that was not true. Gen 9:24 And NoahH5146 awokeH3364 from his wine,H4480 H3196 and knewH3045 (H853) whatH834 his youngerH6996 sonH1121 had doneH6213 unto him. Had and unto him was not in the Paleo Hebrew of Moses writing! What should have been done is to read the meaning and write as it meant. Noah woke up from his wine and knew/know (H3045: Verb-yada to perceive, to understand, to acknowledge). (H853: 'êth-Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self, but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely: - (As such unrepresented in English.)* funny Bible Hub left all of this out!) (H226: 'ôth-Probably from H225 (['ûth-A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent. ] in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token. So, Noah realized the sign was going to come! What was that sign? The continuation of this verse as we state the meaning of the words! H6996: qâṭân/qâṭôn make it clear that Kenaan was a child and not a man. H1121: bên This word is clear when it says Kenaan. All know that this means his grandson! Done is next and not had done (H6213: 'âśâh-A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint. The sentence in English should state: Noah awoke from his wine and acknowledged the evidence of what Kenaan and his children will accomplish! But since you do not want to believe the truth. I am going to show in the Paleo Hebrew word (H779: 'ârar in English it is execrated and then you will see why Noah got drunk and what he tried to do! "The word means to despise or also to curse. Broken down to its Latin root, the word execrate means the opposite of being sacred or devoted to. When you execrate something, you are cursing it instead of making it holy." "a: A curse or declare to be evil or anathema or threaten with divine punishment!" www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/execrate I want anyone to show me in these verses that Noah had the right to curse his grandson without divine guidance. I have read that THE FATHER'S SON YAHWEH came down to curse and to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah! Gen Chapter Nineteen YAHWEH had Moses write in Deut 28:16-68 horrible curses on the Hebrews, which were repeated until they were completely destroyed. There are more, but never in all the Bible was any man given the privilege to curse each other like this! When it is done, it falls back on the one that does it, and it is called an omen. Why? Because they allow Satan to use them and fall from grace. I rest my case due to justice and truth. We all have sin, but when we are Commanded to obey regardless of the circumstances, we must accept our duty! Glory and honor is in the truth. Not everyone will receive it, but those who follow the straight and narrow gate will! I am here to present the truth, and it is THE HOLY SPIRIT who will lead all who desire to be saved! I want to be saved and pray for all here in the same way! Blessings to you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonmarri Posted Sunday at 05:07 AM Share Posted Sunday at 05:07 AM On 10/30/2024 at 8:20 PM, Gregory Matthews said: Paleo Hebrew is an alphabetic script that is used to state a language (Hebrew) in written form. It is not, and never has been a language. In the early days of the Hebrew nation, their written language used the Paleo Hebrew alphabet. At a later time, the Hebrew people changed their alphabet to the Aramaic Square Script. That was not a change in language. It was simply a change in the manner of writing Hebrew. The Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible that are used today are generally written in the Aramaic Square Script, as few Biblical scholars are able to read the Paleo Hebrew script. Pastor: I have responded to you about this subject. I had a few more pieces of evidence to provide, but for no reason, the light went out and then quickly came back on. I lost everything, and I have to do it again. Please forgive me and allow me time to do it again. I was under the weather, but I promise you I will give you an answer with sound evidence. May YAHWEH bless you and keep you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonmarri Posted Sunday at 09:00 PM Share Posted Sunday at 09:00 PM On 11/5/2024 at 7:37 PM, bonnie1962 said: I cant think of a more hideous career or way to make a living. Africans sold other africans for a good deal of money. That is undeniable. Africans were slave owners. Yet that is never a part of the condemnation of the white race. In that time and place, reared with the same mentality , who as an african would any of us been? Yes, they did, but the story does not stop there. They were also sold, so what did the money gain them? When hatred is involved based on the color of one's skin, people will use them, and then they will capture the ones who help sell off other tribes, and the gain of money is useless. So, when you tell the story, all must be said. That is why there was a shortage of people, and a famine took place as well. The Indians still have not regained what was senseless and evil taken from them and their people. When it comes to reparation, the Indians should receive so much more than next are the Afrikan people. Blessings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted Sunday at 10:09 PM Share Posted Sunday at 10:09 PM As it is a matter of history that the Indian tribes were not strolling thru the prairie grass hand in hand with other tribes but killing, stealing lands and taking captive long before the settlers where do you start with reparations? It was only senseless and evil if committed by a white hand? Or do you go back to the senseless evil of Indians killing Indians . They had millions and millions of uninhabited land to settle in but yet killed one another for land. Should the remaining existing tribes pay reparations to one another for stolen land? Or was it only senseless evil when the act was by white settlers. White settlers and Indians fighting over land and captives is easier to understand, Not condone, but understand than Indian on Indian killing and stealing. Do we begin reparations at the beginning of the killing and stealing in what is now the US? Or do we isolate that portion of time when the white settlers came and demand reparations from all whites living here now? Slavery is the same. Are reparations being demanded of the africans that sold other africans to the white slavers. How about the black slave owners in the US? Are they to pay reparations? Slavery has been a fact of life going back almost to the beginning of civilization. Who is to pay. The white slavers did not invent slavery. Africans had a lucrative business before that. Are they going to be billed for reparations? My ancestors were murdered,enslaved,raped and sold for their land in Scotland. There is a 500 room castle remaining,do you suppose the Scottish government will give us reparations? They had to flee in the middle of the night, over dangerous terrain, leaving everything behind. So Wha t? They were badly treated when finally the few remaining arrived here. So WHAT. No one owes me anything. That was then,this is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted Sunday at 10:23 PM Share Posted Sunday at 10:23 PM 1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said: Yes, they did, but the story does not stop there. They were also sold, so what did the money gain them? When hatred is involved based on the color of one's skin, people will use them, and then they will capture the ones who help sell off other tribes, and the gain of money is useless. So, when you tell the story, all must be said. What all would you like to be said. Africans were complicit and as guilty as the white slavers. Africans were involved in slavery before the first white slavers. White people did not invent slavery. Yet you seem to want to lay all the blame at their feet. None of us living today sold or purchased slaves. No black person has been a slave. Is there racism, of course. There will be till Christ returns. But it is hardly a one way street. Each of us only has responsibility for our behavior now. It does get tiresome being expected to apologize and make up for the very acts that africans were complicit in. When all is said and done money cannot erase the past. It can and will add more fuel to racial fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonmarri Posted Monday at 04:43 AM Share Posted Monday at 04:43 AM 6 hours ago, bonnie1962 said: Africans were complicit and as guilty as the white slavers. Africans were involved in slavery before the first white slavers. White people did not invent slavery. Bonnie, I am going to leave you with the difference between a servant and a slave and what is worse: being a chattle slave. Does the God of the Old Testament Endorse Slavery? Why Does the Bible Never Condemn Slavery This is actually a misconception. If antebellum Southerners had followed Israel's law, slavery not only would not have existed but would have been treated as a capital offense. Regarding kidnapping and slavery, please view the following texts from the Torah, Exodus 21:16: "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death. Deuteronomy 24:7: "If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that thief shall die, so you shall purge the evil from among you." This demonstrates that slavery was not the same as the kind we saw in the 19th-century antebellum South (there were northerners involved in the trade, too, for those sensitive to historical accuracy). At that time, tradesmen went to Africa, kidnapped people, and brought them home to sell them to the highest bidder. Again, according to these passages, such a practice would be a capital crime in the Old Testament. Instead, persons who were slaves were usually indentured servants paying off a debt, a resident employee who temporarily lived in the employees' household to work off his debt to him. Sometimes, it was for other reasons, such as when a financial disaster hit a particular household, the family would often sell themselves into service to help pay the bills. This clearly is not the type of slavery we usually think of today. The 'slavery' mentioned in the Old Testament was really indentured servanthood and was a very different kind of institution than the New World slavery that developed in modern times. So, let's be careful and historically accurate when attempting to equate the African slave trade to the forms of slavery and servanthood you hear about in the Bible. We still have slavery today, and it takes place in the prisons. People pay a debt they owe society there. Monergism by CPR Foundation Slavery in Africa Slavery existed in Africa, but it was not the same type of slavery that the Europeans introduced. The European form was called chattel slavery. A chattel slave is a piece of property with no rights. Slavery within Africa was different. A slave might be enslaved in order to pay off a debt or pay for a crime. Slaves in Africa lost the protection of their families and their place in society through enslavement. But eventually they or their children might become part of their master's family and become free. This was unlike chattel slavery, in which enslaved Africans were enslaved people for life, as were their children and grandchildren. https://www.discoveringbristol.org.uk/slavery/people-involved/enslaved-people/enslaved-africans/africa-slavery May YAHWEH bless and keep you in perfect peace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted Monday at 11:50 AM Share Posted Monday at 11:50 AM 6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: Bonnie, I am going to leave you with the difference between a servant and a slave and what is worse: being a chattle slave. Does the God of the Old Testament Endorse Slavery? Why Does the Bible Never Condemn Slavery As I never claimed God endorsed slavery the above is irrelevant. This is actually a misconception. If antebellum Southern.ers had followed Israel's law, slavery not only would not have existed but would have been treated as a capital offense. The same could be said If africans had followed Israel's law Regarding kidnapping and slavery, please view the following texts from the Torah, Exodus 21:16: "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death. Deuteronomy 24:7: Ten commandments has something to say about murder, stealing etc. How is that working out as far as prevention? 6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: "If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that thief shall die, so you shall purge the evil from among you." Sorry, that doesn't demonstrate anything for those not willing to follow. There were many types of slaves, Slave ownership was not some benevolent career that people chose to better mankind. 6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: This demonstrates that slavery was not the same as the kind we saw in the 19th-century antebellum South (there were northerners involved in the trade At that time, tradesmen went to Africa, kidnapped people, and brought them home to sell them to the highest bidder. Again, according to these passages, such a practice would be a capital crime in the Old Testament. Are you saying that the old testament instruction was followed ? Someone owning slaves checked the old testament to guide their behavior so that slave ownership was this benevolent enterprise? . At that time, tradesmen went to Africa, kidnapped people, and brought them home to sell them to the highest bidder. Again, according to these passages, such a practice would be a capital crime in the Old Testament. You seem to want to dwell on the old testament. It stretches credibility to the max to claim ttradesmen went to Africa and kidnaped people. Those people were provided to the white slavers. In that era explain how white tradesmen knew the interior of Africa well enough to be able to kidnap millions and millions of people. They would not have known how to survive in a country like that. Then read history. Africa is again known as the epicenter of modern day slavery. Instead, persons who were slaves were usually indentured servants paying off a debt, a resident employee who temporarily lived in the employees' household to work off his debt to him. Sometimes, it was for other reasons, such as when a financial disaster hit a particular household, the family would often sell themselves into service to help pay the bills. This clearly is not the type of slavery we usually think of today. The 'slavery' mentioned in the Old Testament was really indentured servanthood and was a very different kind of institution than the New World slavery that developed in modern times. Slavery has been a fact of life since biblical times, it was hardly a benign practice. Some of what you say is true but that is only part of the story. No matter how you want to sanitize it and make it a white invention and practice you cannot erase history. No thing you have stated biblically changes slavery into this benevolent lifestyle 6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: Instead, persons who were slaves were usually indentured servants paying off a debt, a resident employee who temporarily o Africa, kidnapped people, and brought them home to sell them to the highest bidder. Again, according to these passages, such a practice would be a capital crime in the Old Testament. Instead, persons who were slaves were usually indentured servants paying off a debt, a resident employee who temporarily lived in the employees' household to work off his debt to him. Sometimes, it was for other reasons, such as when a financial disaster hit a particular household, the family would often sell themselves into service to help pay the bills. This clearly is not the type of slavery we usually think of today. The 'slavery' mentioned in the Old Testament was really indentured servanthood and was a very different kind of institution than the New World slavery that developed in modern times. So, let's be careful and historically accurate when attempting to equate the African slave trade to the forms of slavery and servanthood you hear about in the Bible. We still have slavery today, and it takes place in the prisons. People pay a debt they owe society there. Monergism by CPR Foundation Perhaps you need to take your own advice. I did not equate the African slave trade to slavery we read about in the Bible.The African slave trade was alive and well before the white slavers That is you taking a reference to slavery since almost the beginning of civilization and running with it 6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said: Slavery in Africa Slavery existed in Africa, but it was not the same type of slavery that the Europeans introduced. The European form was called chattel slavery. A chattel slave is a piece of property with no rights. Slavery within Africa was different. A slave might be enslaved in order to pay off a debt or pay for a crime. Slaves in Africa lost the protection of their families and their place in society through enslavement. But eventually they or their children might become part of their master's family and become free. This was unlike chattel slavery, in which enslaved Africans were enslaved people for life, as were their children and grandchildren. https://www.discoveringbristol.org.uk/slavery/people-involved/enslaved-people/enslaved-africans/africa-slavery May YAHWEH bless and keep you in perfect peace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted Monday at 11:55 AM Share Posted Monday at 11:55 AM So, let's be careful and historically accurate when attempting to equate the African slave trade to the forms of slavery and servanthood you hear about in the Bible. We still have slavery today, and it takes place in the prisons. People pay a debt they owe society there. Monergism by CPR Foundation Nowhere did I equate African slave trade to forms of slavery you read about in the bible. That is you going off in another direction to deflect from the actual topic. Prisons are for a purpose. Paying a debt to society is hardly the same as slavery. Maybe you are of the opinion that no one should be sent to prison, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted Monday at 04:44 PM Share Posted Monday at 04:44 PM It just astounds me that you can deny history. Africa has historically had very widespread slavery . Of course they had different systems of slavery they also had the nasty kind. The kind where you sell to slavers, slavers of many different ethnic backgrounds. There was the Saharan, Red Sea, Indian Ocean trade . Slavery is still practiced in Africa. That in no way absolves the white race but it is far more complicated than just blaming the white race for all slavery;s sins. The black race and many others were complicit in that horrific practice. But again, who would you have been raised in that era and culture? Raised in a culture where slavery was the norm? You don't seem to want to answer that but it goes without saying you would not have had the same value system you have today. There isn't a race or ethnic group that has not suffered at the hands of others stronger and more capable than others. Two seem to want to hang on to centuries old injuries. Those as the Chinese, treated horribly, have certainly excelled. At least immigrants in the US. No one group or race has clean hands where slavery and misusing others is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonmarri Posted Tuesday at 02:13 AM Share Posted Tuesday at 02:13 AM 14 hours ago, bonnie1962 said: So, let's be careful and historically accurate when attempting to equate the African slave trade to the forms of slavery and servanthood you hear about in the Bible. We still have slavery today, and it takes place in the prisons. People pay a debt they owe society there. Monergism by CPR Foundation Nowhere did I equate African slave trade to forms of slavery you read about in the bible. That is you going off in another direction to deflect from the actual topic. Prisons are for a purpose. Paying a debt to society is hardly the same as slavery. Maybe you are of the opinion that no one should be sent to prison, I don't know. Bonnie, let me say this is as kind as I can. You are a person who always looks for a fight! I don't remember you trying to reach out to show love for people. Your writing stirs up things that motivate you. I am not interested in writing back to you. Let me make myself very clear. We are living in the days of sorrow that YAHSHUA prophesied to HIS disciples. I am not afraid because I am going to preach the truth! Time is running out! And YAHSHUA went out, and departed from the temple: and HIS disciples came to HIM for to show HIM the buildings of the temple. And YAHSHUA said unto them, See ye, not all these things? Very I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Signs of the End of the Age And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the world? And YAHSHUA answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM THE MESSIAH and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of SORROW. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for MY NAME'S sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this good news of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:1-14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you. It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment than for that city. Mark 6:11 You go ahead and accept all that nonsense that you desire. You have made up your choice, and I have made mine. YAHSHUA warned us that deception would appear during the Time of Sorrow! I believe the Bible says that this is going to be a hard time. It is the Time of Sorrow. Next will be the Time of Trouble. I have work to do and am not debating history with you. Why? If the truth slaps you in your face, you will deny it and then go on one of your rampant outcrys! The Bible says, And for this cause, ELOHIYM shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2Th 2:11, 12 The world is coming to an end! YAHSHUA will protect us during this time of affliction because the True Gospel will be preached, not from any church or denomination but from those who made up their mind to preach the truth and then be saved. It is those who have become The Way! The followers of YAHSHUA that will be part of 144,000. They will be able to reach the multitude of souls around the world. Then, the Time of Trouble will begin, and the wicked will receive the pain and suffering in Rev Chapter Nine. Daniel, the FATHER, heard will give the time and day for YAHSHUA'S coming. It is all there in Daniel and Revelation. The beast, the false prophet, will be set up, and the papacy will take over the mess that your leader and the Heritage Foundation will cause! So, here we are, you and me. I am truly sad for you and Ben Carson, who have allowed the deceiver to use you. Yes, I said it because of your actions, never trying to agree to disagree but always fuss angry. You can now vent about me like you have already. I say peace unto you. You move on because I have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie1962 Posted Tuesday at 03:23 AM Share Posted Tuesday at 03:23 AM You go ahead and accept all that nonsense that you desire. You have made up your choice, and I have made mine. YAHSHUA warned us that deception would appear during the Time of Sorrow! I believe the Bible says that this is going to be a hard time. It is the Time of Sorrow. Next will be the Time of Trouble. I have work to do and am not debating history with you. Why? If the truth slaps you in your face, you will deny it and then go on one of your rampant outcrys! You are right ,there really isn't any purpose to this. My problem with you has always been this absolute determination to bring race into any discussion whether it is relevant or not. You always go into a lengthy sermon on Noah etc. This had nothing to do with Noah or anyone biblical but that is where you centered your attention . Slavery since biblical days has been a fact of life. You desire to change that and sanitize the role Africa and africans played in that sordid history You always accuse me of being angry. I am not in the least. I do resent having that currently thrown at white people in general . You cannot clean the hands of all ethnic groups that took place in the slave trade. As horrific as it was slavery in the US was relatively short lived compared to the history of slavery. Slavery is still going on and guess where? Why are you bringing Ben Carson into this again. You have made your feelings clear towards him but only your side is known so maybe unless you invite him here to defend himself it would be more Christian to leave him out. As for my leader that is so pathetic. Go thru this forum and count the endless posts defending Biden/Harris. That might say something about the leader of some here. You are free to vote and support who you wish as I am. Does that make who you vote for your leader? Don't know. But for me I cannot make myself vote for a party that cannot define what a woman is. Now that is either incredibly stupid or an entire political party is lying. I have yet to hear one democrat that seems to know. Whatever sin you lay at Trumps feet can be laid at Biden, yet you support him. Situational ethics . I will continue to oppose your continual racism, call it what you like, that is what it is. Maybe it is time to lay slavery aside. Money wont solve the problem, it would never be enough as long as there are white people on the planet. No you haven't moved on, it is only a matter of time before you squeeze racism and slavery into another discussion. Just as you have not moved on from whatever your gripe is against Ben Carson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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