We Do Not Talk About How Great Our Church Is

[GodsOath]

I like the church because they were not pushy judgmental and I tested them before I got baptized. I remember that the most important thing is my relationship with Jesus and secondary with the individuals at church

[there buster]

"Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

"Proud" can involve boasting, or it can simply mean "pleased to be associated with."

Let him who quoteth scripture quote something relevant.

[Fausto]

Quote:

I was just telling my pastor today that I will not apologize for Mrs. White. Her writings have been used to bash and abuse folks often, but that doesn't change the fact that she is God's messenger for our church today.

Why should we? Have you ever heard Ps. Mark Howard preaching on apologetics? Great stuff, no man...she has been vindicated and by the bible too!

I talk about how great I think our church is and believe me, Iget shot often speacillay at Sabbath School, funny hey?

I think we hold so much truth in our hands that we have to get it out there quick! I am hungry fo rthis so in the last two months I have "consumed" many hours watching, Walter Veith, Stephen Bohr, Mark Howard, Doug Bachellor, Kent Hovindt (although he is not adventist, has some very good creationist arguments), Lyle Albrecht (he's so good, what a story teller real Grandpa style).

[Beryl]

We have in this Division (and probably others, as well) a little book, a re-write of the original "Your Friends the Adventists". It is a wonderful little book to give to anyone who wants to know something about our church -- no statistics, no "we are better than you", just a telling, in a most friendly way, just who Adventists are, what we believe (main doctrines)-- a booklet that just breathes love and friendship. This is one booklet that needs to be "scattered like leaves of autumn".

Beryl

[skyblue888]

How great our church is!

We need to grow up spritiually by paying more attention to what the prophet said if we think that we need to talk about how great our church is.

"The people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings." Testimonies to Ministers, p.397. (1896)

"The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world." Christ's Object Lessons, p.316. (1901)

"We may have to remain in this world because of our insubordination many more years." Evangelism, p.696. (1901)

It's been 107 years since the prophet made the last two statements!

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that they were the favorites of Heaven, and that they were always to be exalted as the church of God. They were the children of Abraham, they declared, and so firm did the foundation of their prosperity appeared to them that they defied earth and Heaven to dispossess them of their rights. But by lives of unfaithfulness they were preparing for the condemnation of Heaven and for separation from God...

"Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, will they not in like manner be rejected? Christ's Object Lessons, pp.294,304.

God's call is conditional.

sky

p.s. Even if the church was faultless, it would still be inappropriate to talk about how great the church was. The merits of Christ alone are to be extolled for "Only the merits of Christ will be recognized." E.G. White.

[Ellen]

Add my voice to the members who do not apologize for standing behind the great Adventist Movement. God is using humans with human tendencies to operate His church and it only takes a little intelligence to look above the humanness we experience and see God's hand in the order, organization, blessing our Church exhibits.

I especially like the feeling that I have "family" in whatever SDA church I am in. It feels wonderful. And this site is very much like that as well.

[Dr. Shane]

I have discovered that most in the church that have negative views of the church were born in the church. Most of them have never been a member of another denomination. The Adventist message is based on 100% love. Many denominations teach that God has two attributes: love and justice. Those that receive love go to heaven and those that receive justice go to hell. The Adventist understand that God's justice is a fruit of His love. Everyone receives both love and justice.

[phkrause]

I have discovered that most in the church that have negative views of the church were born in the church. Most of them have never been a member of another denomination. The Adventist message is based on 100% love. Many denominations teach that God has two attributes: love and justice. Those that receive love go to heaven and those that receive justice go to hell. The Adventist understand that God's justice is a fruit of His love. Everyone receives both love and justice.

Good points Shane.

[Kountzer]

How great is God who put in motion and sustains this church.

[skyblue888]

Let us take ourselves back to the days of Christ for a minute. Here was the Jewish church, the "bride" of Christ, so did the Sanhedrin and most of the people believe and think. I am sure many of them did talk about how great this Jewish church was! After all, was she not the called of God, the apple of His eye, God's appointed channel for the revelation of God to men! And yet what did the leaders of that church do with the Christ of God? And where was that church after A.D.34? How great was the Jewish church when they crucified the Lord of glory? How great was the Jewish church when they persecuted and put to death the followers of Christ?

Has not the modern church repeated the history of the Jewish church? What did we do with the most precious message God sent to us between 1888 and 1901? What did we do in 1903 with the reformatory steps taken in 1901 to reorganize the church? What did we secretly do with the pillars of our faith in 1957 in order to be recognized by the worldly churches?

101 years ago the Testimonies revealed that the self-confident management of men had resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men (men's constitutions with their policies, by-laws, resolutions, delegations, votes, church manuals, creeds, etc etc) and yet we should talk about how great our church is!!!

The Testimonies tell us that our church is responsible for delaying the second coming of Christ for more than a century and yet we should talk about how great our church is!!!

109 years ago the Testimonies told us that because of insubordination we would have to remain in this world of sin and sorrow many more years and yet we should talk about how great this church is!!!

And even if the church had fulfilled her God-given mission, she would not talk about how great she is but about how great God is!

sky

[Gail]

Hmm... can I ask you a question, sky?

EGW said in many places that the church, enfeebled and defective as it is, is the only object on earth on which he bestows his supreme regard.

Why, then, do you see it necessary to run it down all the time?

[phkrause]

Hmm... can I ask you a question, sky?

EGW said in many places that the church, enfeebled and defective as it is, is the only object on earth on which he bestows his supreme regard.

Why, then, do you see it necessary to run it down all the time?

I do so agree with you Gail. The more we run down something the more negative we become. This goes for many things not just the Church.

[skyblue888]

Hmm... can I ask you a question, sky?

EGW said in many places that the church, enfeebled and defective as it is, is the only object on earth on which he bestows his supreme regard.

Why, then, do you see it necessary to run it down all the time?

Gail, I am not running down the church on which God bestows His supreme regard or am I? In the days of Christ, on which church did God bestow His supreme regard? On the church led by the Sanhedrin and all their followers (and they were in the majority who believed and taught they were always to be exalted as the church of God) or on the faithful few, the disciples of Christ?

We all know the answer to this question. God bestowed His supreme regard on the "little church" (enfeebled and defective as it were) composed of the disciples of Christ. These "faithful few" constituted the "little church" within the "established church" and upon whom God bestowed His supreme regard. This was the "little church" which God saw as "enfeebled and defective" in contrast with the "established church" of the day which, far from seeing herself as enfeebled and defective, was sitting as a queen claiming that she would always be exalted as the church of God while planning the murder of the Son of God!

This "little church" composed of the faithful few made no boast except boasting in the Lord. Enfeebled and defective as she was, she was the true church on which God bestowed His supreme regard.

Gail, I know that you are thinking about the denomination when you read that statement. Many do today just as many did in the days of Christ as they looked upon the established church of the day and saw that church as the only church upon which God was bestowing His supreme regard. But where was that church after A.D.34 and what happened to those who taught that that church would always be exalted as the church of God?

Let us not forget these words, "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

Need we say more?

sky

[Stan]

Sky

I would suspect if a vote was taken, I think Gail's statement would win.

[skyblue888]

Stan, I would suspect that if a vote had been taken in the days of Christ, the established church would have won against Christ and His followers who were very few.

But voting is part of the "devisings of men".

When was the majority on the side of truth anyway?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Hmm... can I ask you a question, sky?

EGW said in many places that the church, enfeebled and defective as it is, is the only object on earth on which he bestows his supreme regard.

Why, then, do you see it necessary to run it down all the time?

I do so agree with you Gail. The more we run down something the more negative we become. This goes for many things not just the Church.

pk, in the book Testimonies to Ministers we are told that God has a controversy with those who profess to be the true church and yet refuse the light sent to them from Heaven just as God had a controversy with the Jewish church in the days of Christ.

Mrs. White speaks of this church as those who think they are all right when they are all wrong! She speaks of them as having lost their spiritual bearings because they have chosen darkness rather than light. Why, because they have put God aside and accepted the devisings of men. What are the devisings of men? Men's constitutions with their policy books, by-laws, resolutions, elections by votes, delegations, church manuals, creeds, etc etc. Are these not the devisings of men? the devisings of the governments of this world?

This church is not the church of which it is said that though enfeebled and defective as it is God bestows upon it His supreme regard. The church of which it is said that she is enfeebled and defective is composed of very few, the "faithful few" who are not too wise or too learned to believe just what God says. They are actuated by the same Head, Christ Jesus. These are not subject to men's rules and regulations. These are not amenable to men and therefore are accused of being independent of the church that is controlled by man. These will be seen as dangerous, enthusiasts, extremists, fanatics, and yet they are those on whom God bestows His supreme regard just as it happened in the days of Christ and in the days of The Reformation. There is nothing new under the sun especially that we are told that that which has been is that which shall be for the Lord has declared that the history of the past is to be rehearsed in the closing work.

As far as I am concerned, I am not running down the church on which God bestows His supreme regard. On the contrary. The church upon which God bestows His supreme regard is the church of the faithful few, not the church that sits as a queen and yet has become so much like the world that no difference can be seen. God will not bestow His supreme regard upon a church that has become so much like the world that no difference can be seen! God cannot bestow His supreme regard upon a church that has betrayed sacred trusts but He does bestow His supreme regard upon the faithful few who will be opposed and derided by the majority who blindly follow those who have rejected the light God has sent to them. The church composed of the disciples of Christ (in the days of Christ and in the days of the Reformation) was enfeebled and defective and yet she was the true church. She was opposed by a worldly church, the established church of the day, the church that boasted of being the true church and that she would always be the church of God.

God help us.

sky :)

[aldona]

Quote:

EGW said in many places that the church, enfeebled and defective as it is, is the only object on earth on which he bestows his supreme regard.

The "only" object on which He bestows His supreme regard?

What kind of arrogant statement is that? (Yes, I know it is an EGW quote. That does not change my feelings about it.)

Would you look a sincere believer from another denomination in the eye and say that?

God bestows His supreme regard on all of mankind. John 3:16 says "for God so loved the WORLD", not "the SDA church" - that He gave His only begotten Son. If that is not "supreme regard", I don't know what is.

AJ

[John317]

Ellen White is not denying that God wants to save every man, woman, and child who's ever lived. But God has a special regard for the church that He raised up in these last days to help prepare people for the Second Coming of Christ. Ellen White isn't saying that God loves the SDA church because SDAs are better than others. Rather, His supreme regard is shown to the church by His sending us greater light than He's bestowed on any other people at any time in all of history. He also gives his protecting care to the church. That should make us want to study and find out what that light is and to take advantage of it. With greater light and greater privileges comes greater resposibility. The reason He gave us this light is in order to practice it ourselves and then share it with others.

[aldona]

Ellen White is not denying that God wants to save every man, woman, and child who's ever lived. But God has a special regard for the church that He raised up in these last days to help prepare people for the Second Coming of Christ. Ellen White isn't saying that God loves the SDA church because SDAs are better than others. Rather, His supreme regard is shown to the church by His sending us greater light than He's bestowed on any other people at any time in all of history. He also gives his protecting care to the church. That should make us want to study and find out what that light is and to take advantage of it. With greater light and greater privileges comes greater resposibility. The reason He gave us this light is in order to practice it ourselves and then share it with others.

I agree with all that you're saying, but the wording of the original quote did not reflect that - it didn't say God has a special regard for His remnant, or that He has raised up a special people for a particular task.

The word "ONLY" is not comparative, but exclusive.

To say that our church is "the ONLY object on which He bestows his supreme regard" is like a parent, who has a number of children, saying that a particular one is "the ONLY one on whom I lavish unconditional love."

How would that sound, coming from a parent? Now how does the original quote sound to other Christians?

AJ

[Kountzer]

This is the most truthful church on the planet. There is nowhere else to go if a christian is seeking the truth. No offense to other churches and belief systems. I do believe that saints from other folds will saved into the kingdom. Still, this is the place. The next step is making it to the kingdom.

[Gail]

Don't worry- there is coming a time when there will remain only two groups of people, those on God's side and those that are not. Whatever sorting process there will be, will be done and there will be lots of surprises.

To me it's kind of like David not wanting to harm King Saul, evil as he was, because he was the Lord's anointed. David knew what was in store, but kept a respect towards Saul always.

The interesting thing about the quote, is that there is not just one. If you go to the Estate, she says it in many different places. And there were problems with the institution in her day. She said it anyway.

Anyways, it's food for thought.

[Guest]

Don't worry- there is coming a time when there will remain only two groups of people, those on God's side and those that are not. Whatever sorting process there will be, will be done and there will be lots of surprises.

To me it's kind of like David not wanting to harm King Saul, evil as he was, because he was the Lord's anointed. David knew what was in store, but kept a respect towards Saul always.

The interesting thing about the quote, is that there is not just one. If you go to the Estate, she says it in many different places. And there were problems with the institution in her day. She said it anyway.

Anyways, it's food for thought.

You are wise beyond your years.

[skyblue888]

Gail, Are these your words or Stan's:

Don't worry- there is coming a time when there will remain only two groups of people, those on God's side and those that are not. Whatever sorting process there will be, will be done and there will be lots of surprises.

To me it's kind of like David not wanting to harm King Saul, evil as he was, because he was the Lord's anointed. David knew what was in store, but kept a respect towards Saul always.

The interesting thing about the quote, is that there is not just one. If you go to the Estate, she says it in many different places. And there were problems with the institution in her day. She said it anyway.

Anyways, it's food for thought.

Gail

________________________________

That's my point exactly. There is coming a time when, as in the days of Christ, there will be those, among us, who will continue to follow blindly their blind leaders (the majority) and those who will choose to follow Christ and His truth (faithful few) and be persecuted for it.

Gail, in the last 30 years, I have had the time to think about what you said regarding David and Saul. What has been said so far has no inkling whatsoever that we should fight the present order of things except to call for the same reform that was called for between 1888 and 1901. We are simply talking about spiritual discernment. But are you suggesting that you know what is in store for the present order of things? Are you? Mrs. White said that the present order of things will come to naught. I believe that. She said that the whole structure will be swept away by storm and tempest because it is built upon a false foundation, and therefore built upon the sand. Personally I want to pay attention to what the prophet says and I have no intention of harming anyone in any way, shape or form. David was a man according to God's own heart and today God still has His Davids and He knows who they are, doesn't He?

sky

*The call to go back to the 1901 reformatory steps for the order of organizations is still present truth. If that call is made light of and the present order of things is allowed to continue, the faith of those who allow it to continue will become extinct and they won't even know it.

[Woody]

I agree with all that you're saying, but the wording of the original quote did not reflect that - it didn't say God has a special regard for His remnant, or that He has raised up a special people for a particular task.

The word "ONLY" is not comparative, but exclusive.

To say that our church is "the ONLY object on which He bestows his supreme regard" is like a parent, who has a number of children, saying that a particular one is "the ONLY one on whom I lavish unconditional love."

How would that sound, coming from a parent? Now how does the original quote sound to other Christians?

AJ

I agree with you AJ. What I find happens when Ellen White makes a statement that does not hold water ... people reinvent what she says and try to claim that she REALLY meant THIS or THAT. In this way ... she never makes an incorrect statement. She becomes infallible because they change the wording or meaning of the words. This is not the ONLY way they do it but it is one way.

I guess I should look up the word ONLY and find out if it really means 'only'.

[Stan]

Define what she meant by Church..