We Do Not Talk About How Great Our Church Is

[Woody]

Define what she meant by Church..

That's the problem Stan. Each person will interpret what she meant differently. They insert their own agenda into her writings.

Since she isn't here ... I guess we can't ask her. Guess I will just have to stick with Biblical principles.

[skyblue888]

Stan, I know you are not asking me but I will answer your question anyway. The only true definition of the church as found in the Testimonies is in harmony with the 1901 principle of organization for God's true church, which has not been accepted and implemented, and it is the principle of self-government in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Please pay attention to the next three statements very carefully:

"The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world." A.A.11.

We are to compare statement with statement, right?

"The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it (in the soul that is yielded to Christ) but His own." D.A.324. *parenthesis supplied.

This is the church (though defective and enfeebled as it may be) upon which He bestows His supreme regard. The souls of those who will not allow any authority to be known in them except His own.

These two statements explain one another. They define the church in clear, distinct lines.

There is also this other statement which is in harmony with the others:

"The church of Christ, every individual disciple of the Master, is Heaven's appointed channel for the revelation of God to men." Mount of Blessing, p.40.

"By the mouths of two or three witnesses shall the truth be established." 2 Cor.13:1.

Here are a couple more statements:

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people (souls that are yielded to Christ) who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in the misdt of them.' Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." The Upward Look, 315. *parenthesis supplied.

Now notice these words: "The church is in the Laodicean state. The presence of God is not in her midst." Notbebook Leaflets, p.99.5

All these statements quoted in this post, when compared, shed much light as to what constitutes the church of Christ, don't they?

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

So we must compare statement with statement and thus avoid putting our own personal slant or construction on anything that is written, either from the Bible or from the Testimonies of God's Spirit.

sky

[JonathanPenner]

I am shocked by what I am reading. How unbelievably self-consumed and egocentric it is to suggest the Ellen White was referring to the less than 200 year old legally registered non-profit we are part of as "the Church" when she wrote; "the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard."

From the beginning of Acts of the Apostles to the quote within that same chapter, she describes "the church" not as an institution, or denomination, or building, or specific group of people within a limited time of earths history. Instead she talks about God's community of believers, from all time, in all walks of life, from after the fall, to present day.

"The church is God’s appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God’s plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency."

From what beginning is she talking about? The context, when you read verses she quotes, from Isaiah, Ezekiel and others, both old and new testament, is from the beginning of this earths history. When Adam and Eve chose to distrust God, till present day.

"Through centuries of persecution, conflict, and darkness, God has sustained His church."

Again, how could she be talking about the Adventist church, in referring to God sustaining it through centuries of persecution.

She even goes so far as to articulate that fact that the members of "the church" are individuals who have responded to the call of God. They are not members of an incorporated non-profit organization. They are members of a world wide body without borders. A community lead by the Holy Spirit.

She then talks about the blessing this community of people have been to the world around them all through history. Not the last 200 years of history, but the last 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 years.

So often we talk of God's church with an exclusive vision in our minds. As though we know it's boundaries; who's in and who's out from God's perspective. We talk as though we as Adventists hold the keys to the universal vault of "Truth."

God is God. He holds enormous flaming balls of fire millions of times the size of our earth, in the palm of His hand. He doesn't ask us permission for what He does. Nor will He ever be contained or confined to our limited knowledge of Him.

We will forever study to understand Him, yet after millions of years still know so little relative to who He is. He is God and we are not.

[JonathanPenner]

What kind of arrogant statement is that? (Yes, I know it is an EGW quote. That does not change my feelings about it.)

Would you look a sincere believer from another denomination in the eye and say that?

I agree that IF this statement was written in reference exclusively to the Seventh-day Adventist church, that would be completely arrogant.

However the context of that statement says otherwise. Just these two statements below, that she used to expand what she meant by "the church" showcase what she meant.

"Another time when the church suffered intensely at the hands of Roman and Jewish persecutors..."

"To the church in the wilderness also, in the time of Moses, God gave His “good Spirit to instruct them.”

This last one goes back as far as God's people in the Wilderness.

[JonathanPenner]

Stan, I reread the title of this thread and a thought hit me.

First I want to tell you how much I appreciate how you look at the glass as half full, instead of half empty. Often when I talk with you, I am challenged to choose to see things with a better attitude. I love you for that.

Now in relation to your comment "One thing we don't talk about is how great our church is." I agree with you on this one. And I of all people need to remember this.

At the same time, the thought that immediately jumped into my mind was, "One thing we don't talk about is how great our God is." On a personal level I frequently am thinking about it, and often will share with my kids. But at a church level, I can spend whole Sabbaths and find few people ever talk about how great God is.

It's something I want to learn to initiate more often.

[Woody]

How do we define "great"?

What we get out of it?

Is it not totally selfish?

Or can we put 'self' aside?

[Stan]

Stan, I reread the title of this thread and a thought hit me.

First I want to tell you how much I appreciate how you look at the glass as half full, instead of half empty. Often when I talk with you, I am challenged to choose to see things with a better attitude. I love you for that.

Now in relation to your comment "One thing we don't talk about is how great our church is." I agree with you on this one. And I of all people need to remember this.

At the same time, the thought that immediately jumped into my mind was, "One thing we don't talk about is how great our God is." On a personal level I frequently am thinking about it, and often will share with my kids. But at a church level, I can spend whole Sabbaths and find few people ever talk about how great God is.

It's something I want to learn to initiate more often.

There are few people who claim God is not great... after all, he can strike us with lightening at will, or determine the joy we have.

However, I do think it is harder for someone to appreciate what our Church is for those who have had the pleasure and quirks of some involvement all their life.

Glass half full or half empty, I no longer remember which is better, but I do know this, it means we can put more stuff in it.. how sweet is that.

Over the 35 years I have come across people that were so frustrated with the infrastructure of the organization, and that was the thing they missed when they tried to do a start up Church.

Have you seen this?

http://www.simplechurchathome.com/

Interesting option....

[JonathanPenner]

I have looked at the Simple Church idea. It's at times called Organic Church and also has close links to the Missional thinking. Some of the high profile proponents that I've read or listened to talk about it are Reggie McNeil, Jo Saxton, and Bob Logan. Bob actually spoke at Seeds conference at Andrews about 15 years ago. He has been involved in church planting for many years.

On one level I think the concept is really good. However from the perspective of how tracking long term effectiveness. I would have to say there are some significant challenges.

People at NADI at Andrews have been working to establish effective house/cell/home church models for years. And I am not convinced it actually has long term potency.

There seems to be a 3-5 year cycle and many simple churches just stop existing. The truth is that the missional approach to ministry needs to always be a core part of a healthy church community. It must be in the DNA. But removed from the larger community I don't see long term success in North America. Now in countries where there are restrictive factors that make it dangerous or illegal to gather as a larger community, this model thrives.

From what I have seen in terms of implementation through our denominational system, the financial structure feels like a bad joke. Anyone who is part of an Adventist Simple Church should be asking where the value is in submitting their finances to the church through this system.

But it is interesting. If real wins begin to flow out of this model. I would love to recommend it. It sounds really good. But I just don't see the long term fruit to date, both inside and outside the Adventist context.

[Overaged]

There are a few Bible texts which mention "church" in a house. But there are many more texts talking about the corporate body of believers. The context is obvious. Home Church is good, but it's scope is limited, and it is best for only certain types of situations. It should not try to be it's own entity, for that defeats the purpose of the gospel through the Church. A *good* home church should try not to be independent of the corporate body, but, interdependant. This is what I have seen work the best.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am shocked by what I am reading. How unbelievably self-consumed and egocentric it is to suggest the Ellen White was referring to the less than 200 year old legally registered non-profit we are part of as "the Church" when she wrote; "the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard." ...

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Stan, I know you are not asking me but I will answer your question anyway. The only true definition of the church as found in the Testimonies is in harmony with the 1901 principle of organization for God's true church, which has not been accepted and implemented, and it is the principle of self-government in Christ by the Holy Spirit...

Curiously, at first blush it sounds like Jonathan and sky are saying essentially the same thing as reflected in the two posts quoted above. Essentially, if I understand, both are saying that the reference to the "church" is not a denominational or man-made organization reference. But that is where the similarity ends.

If I understand the rest of what sky says, the direction is toward another subset of those claiming to be believers, perhaps Adventist believers, that are not bound by any organized structure, in fact intentionally and openly rejectors of it, which strikes me as toward an exclusionary outlook. It seems to lead to an exclusive small distinct group, more of a subset of what we commonly understand to be our church. They are the remnant that have finally gotten it right, what ever it is. They have broken away from those that don't get it.

But on the other hand, if I understand Jonathan, his thought leads in pretty much the opposite direction toward an inclusive approach, a gathering of individuals from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people that further God's purpose here on earth throughout history. God knows them and marks them as his church, from wherever He finds them, whether inside or outside of any other group. Some may be obvious, other's not so, some even quite oblivious that they are God's "church". But God knows them and marks them as having that distinctive quality that He is best known for, that which He regards supremely important above all else - LOVE. But what distinguishes them from the other perspective is that they have blended in like salt in food, somehow making it better, but no longer distinctly different from whatever group they are in.

[Stan]

I tend to agree with Jonathan....

The Church is the body of Christ.

The Adventist mission and message have a high responsibility and obligation to take the three angel's messages to the world.

You don't gain brownie points for joining, you gain a significant responsibility that you can never turn your back on if it gets inconvenient for you.

We, in my opinion, were to be a movement more than we were a Church Institution.

[JonathanPenner]

But on the other hand, if I understand Jonathan, his thought leads in pretty much the opposite direction toward an inclusive approach, a gathering of individuals from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people that further God's purpose here on earth throughout history. God knows them and marks them as his church, from wherever He finds them, whether inside or outside of any other group. Some may be obvious, other's not so, some even quite oblivious that they are God's "church". But God knows them and marks them as having that distinctive quality that He is best known for, that which He regards supremely important above all else - LOVE. But what distinguishes them from the other perspective is that they have blended in like salt in food, somehow making it better, but no longer distinctly different from whatever group they are in.

Tom, you expressed my thoughts far better than I could. I deeply resonate with the last paragraph you wrote.

That's the stunningly gorgeous Bride of Christ that appeals to all people.

[Overaged]

I have to agree with Tom on that one. A great way to put it!

[Overaged]

LOL; I got "brownie points" when I joined! But I soon found out they were not really worth much.

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

But on the other hand, if I understand Jonathan, his thought leads in pretty much the opposite direction toward an inclusive approach, a gathering of individuals from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people that further God's purpose here on earth throughout history. God knows them and marks them as his church, from wherever He finds them, whether inside or outside of any other group. Some may be obvious, other's not so, some even quite oblivious that they are God's "church". But God knows them and marks them as having that distinctive quality that He is best known for, that which He regards supremely important above all else - LOVE. But what distinguishes them from the other perspective is that they have blended in like salt in food, somehow making it better, but no longer distinctly different from whatever group they are in.

Tom, you expressed my thoughts far better than I could. I deeply resonate with the last paragraph you wrote.

That's the stunningly gorgeous Bride of Christ that appeals to all people.

Jonathan is my buddy!

[Stan]

ONE THING WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT..... is how great our Church is.

Every week about 20,000 people commit their life to Christ via Baptism.

Every week about 100 new Churches, companies or groups meet for the very first time.

Every week thousands. perhaps Hundreds of Thousands are introduced to a loving Christ for the first time.

So many Medical and Health innovations have come out of the Adventist system.

A HUGE world wide School System, that has the material and teachers to point young impressionable minds to Christ.

A HUGE, perhaps the largest, medical system in the world to relief pain and suffering.

Sure people can find flaws here and there in all of these...

It estimated, that just under 1/2 of 1% of the entire world's population comes to an Adventist Church every Sabbath.

The ADVENTIST CHURCH is my Church and I am proud of it, and proud to say that I belong to it, and my head is high when I can say that I work for it.

WOW it has almost been 5 years since I posted this.

[Overaged]

Some topics, I guess, are always current.

[teresaq]

Whatever its "warts" I couldn't be anything but SDA, even when I was out of the church.

The truth is it is my job to make the church a better place by letting Jesus transform me, and doing my best to reach out to any who may be being abused in some fashion by the "pious" among us. :)

[phkrause]

Whatever its "warts" I couldn't be anything but SDA, even when I was out of the church.

The truth is it is my job to make the church a better place by letting Jesus transform me, and doing my best to reach out to any who may be being abused in some fashion by the "pious" among us.

I definitely agree with you teresaq. As far as warts, I think all religions, cults, etc. have warts. None are perfect. I believe at this time in earth's history we should all be helping each other.

[fccool]

Quote:

ONE THING WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT..... is how great our Church is.

Every week about 20,000 people commit their life to Christ via Baptism.

Every week about 100 new Churches, companies or groups meet for the very first time.

Every week thousands. perhaps Hundreds of Thousands are introduced to a loving Christ for the first time.

So many Medical and Health innovations have come out of the Adventist system.

A HUGE world wide School System, that has the material and teachers to point young impressionable minds to Christ.

A HUGE, perhaps the largest, medical system in the world to relief pain and suffering.

Sure people can find flaws here and there in all of these...

It estimated, that just under 1/2 of 1% of the entire world's population comes to an Adventist Church every Sabbath.

To be honest with you, that's the way I felt. These people are really striving for health. They really can cook up some awesome food! They have a world-wide community that comes together to showcase it for almost every country there is. They have a great health system. They have great schools and emphasis on education. They have celebrity speakers like Doug Batchelor, and 3ABN that broadcasts their message all over the world. They study Bible, and have guided family worships that prepares them for Sabbath school. How awesome! Let me join them!

Wow! They pull their money together to support global church! How awesome! This church alone collects $4,000 month in tithes. I would love to do the outreach on behalf of this church and help the needy. They probably have so much to offer. Yes, of course I'll be community services leader! I've done it before, and It was great and humbling experience. How much money do we set aside to help needy in community and our own congregation?

$150

Oh..... now I see how much our greatness is worth (or should I say warts .

[skyblue888]

At the end of the day, What really matters is what God says.

There is nothing new under the sun.

1881: "The steady progress of our work, and our increased facilities are filling the hearts and minds of many of our people with satisfaction and pride, which we fear will take the place of the first love of God in the soul. Busy activity in the mechanical part of even the work of God may so occupy the mind that prayer shall be neglected; and self-importance and self-sufficiency, so ready to urge their way, shall take the place of true goodness, meekness, and lowliness of heart. They are more ready for active labor than for humble devotion, more ready to embrace in outward religious service than in the inner work of the heart. Meditation and prayer are neglected for bustle and show." Testimonies, Vol.4, 534.

In the days of Christ the advent people were crisscrossing land and sea to make a proselyte. Like today there was no lack of activity in the work of God there and then and yet Jesus rebuked them by saying that once they had made a proselyte they made him twice the child of hell they already were!

Stan, What matters this:

Every week about 20,000 people commit their life to Christ via Baptism.

Every week about 100 new Churches, companies or groups meet for the very first time.

Every week thousands. perhaps Hundreds of Thousands are introduced to a loving Christ for the first time.

So many Medical and Health innovations have come out of the Adventist system.

A HUGE world wide School System, that has the material and teachers to point young impressionable minds to Christ.

A HUGE, perhaps the largest, medical system in the world to relief pain and suffering.

Sure people can find flaws here and there in all of these...

It estimated, that just under 1/2 of 1% of the entire world's population comes to an Adventist Church every Sabbath

in the light of the fact that more than 100 years ago we were told that we would have to remain in this world many more years because of our insubordination?

We are still here wandering in this world of sin and sorrow and we are lacking behind waiting for the latter rain message which we initially rejected between 1888 and 1903.

sky

[Neil D]

We are still here wandering in this world of sin and sorrow and we are lacking behind waiting for the latter rain message which we initially rejected between 1888 and 1903.

sky

I'm willing to agree with the above sentiment..probably much to the dismay of Skyblue888.....

I don't think we understand the message of God..and we certainly haven't incorporatated it into our being...I would even say that we truely don't believe it....

We don't believe it because we have messed up the message or we give superficial respect to it. More often than not, we really don't understand the message.....Is it a message of grace and mercy or a message of Law and respect? Are we here to promote OUR agenda or the message of God? How do we know that we have the right message? How do we know that WE have not perverted it ourselves?

points to ponder.................

[doug yowell]

There was a movie not too long ago where one of the female charactors in attempting to describe her love for her seemingly loser boyfriend exclaimed: "I love him for the man he wants to be, and I love him for the man he almost is." I tend to think that many of us echo those sentiments about our church. Besides, when we get to be really great we can let others do our talking.---But we do have a Great God and Savior Jesus Christ which makes for a great message!!

[skyblue888]

Can you explain to me why I should be dismayed if you agree?

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

We are still here wandering in this world of sin and sorrow and we are lacking behind waiting for the latter rain message which we initially rejected between 1888 and 1903.

sky

I'm willing to agree with the above sentiment..probably much to the dismay of Skyblue888.....

I don't think we understand the message of God..and we certainly haven't incorporatated it into our being...I would even say that we truely don't believe it....

We don't believe it because we have messed up the message or we give superficial respect to it. More often than not, we really don't understand the message.....Is it a message of grace and mercy or a message of Law and respect? Are we here to promote OUR agenda or the message of God? How do we know that we have the right message? How do we know that WE have not perverted it ourselves?

points to ponder.................

Would you mind explaining to me why I should be dismayed if you agree?

pondering

sky

[skyblue888]

There was a movie not too long ago where one of the female charactors in attempting to describe her love for her seemingly loser boyfriend exclaimed: "I love him for the man he wants to be, and I love him for the man he almost is." I tend to think that many of us echo those sentiments about our church. Besides, when we get to be really great we can let others do our talking.---But we do have a Great God and Savior Jesus Christ which makes for a great message!!

The whole of Christendom could argue the same.

sky