The Great Controversy

[Gregory Matthews]

Thoughts on The Great Controversy:  See:

https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2022/first-things-first

 

 

[GHansen]

Didn't realize people in Vermont were so "slow." They were confused when they received a free book in the mail? Considering all the junk mail people receive, I'd expect them to be happy to receive some non-junk mail. Vermonters must be clever enough to use a trash can. They can put the book there if it offends them. The Great Controversy is a worthwhile book. It's a great introduction to church history and prophecy. Nothing wrong with offering people an alternative to American media and whatever other nonsense interests them. Time would be better spent reading the GC than watching TV. Leslie Hardinge got an idea for his doctoral dissertation by reading the GC. Tragic that so many SDAs despise the gifts in the church, i.e., health message, Conflict series, etc. Those books may not be perfect but they are not a bad place to start. 

[Kevin H]

8 hours ago, GHansen said:

Didn't realize people in Vermont were so "slow." They were confused when they received a free book in the mail? Considering all the junk mail people receive, I'd expect them to be happy to receive some non-junk mail. Vermonters must be clever enough to use a trash can. They can put the book there if it offends them. The Great Controversy is a worthwhile book. It's a great introduction to church history and prophecy. Nothing wrong with offering people an alternative to American media and whatever other nonsense interests them. Time would be better spent reading the GC than watching TV. Leslie Hardinge got an idea for his doctoral dissertation by reading the GC. Tragic that so many SDAs despise the gifts in the church, i.e., health message, Conflict series, etc. Those books may not be perfect but they are not a bad place to start. 

I really appreciate the line "Those books may not be perfect, but they are not a bad place to start"  What is sad is that too many of us expect them to be perfect; and when they are found not to be perfect we either turn away, maybe attacking the book; or we stick our head in the sand and more loudly insist that they are perfect. 

I love Great Controversy, but I fear that too often the mass mailing is not for her message on religious freedom and the danger of what we today call "Christian Nationalism" and existentialism (spiritualism: You have your truth and I have mine") But that they see it as a book to rub into the reader's face how horrible the Catholics are, and to call glory to the Seventh-day Adventist church. 

I like the idea of what the article said about maybe starting with Steps to Christ. Another, that I wish our church would publish under one binding to give out is to collect the four chapter, and maybe an article: The Origin of Evil, Why was Sin Permitted (These two chapters cover the same event, and I forgot which one was written first, but one has Mrs. White writing the story with the freshness of learning something new; the other writing after years of maturing and reflecting on the topic. Thus their strong and weak points complement each other.) then maybe the article "God Made Manifest in Christ" followed by the chapter "Gethsemane" These chapters set the background and the setting for what was Mrs. White's greatest essay: It Is Finished from Desire of Ages. 

These four or five, climaxing with "It is Finished" would not only be a wonderful introduction to our church; but also a powerful stand alone message that people can apply to their own personal background. How I wish they would be printed in a small volume, I'd gladly pass that (and Steps to Christ) along like the leaves of autumn. (I would also like to see someone like Jacques Doukhan make a Jewish sensitive version for our Jewish friends and even for others who don't have a Christian background)

[GHansen]

If I remember correctly, both Hans K. LaRondelle and Des Ford were converted by reading the Great Controversy, as well as numerous others, no doubt. We live in times when reading books is not what it used to be. Mass mailing GC may not be the most effective soul winning tool but it's a start People will probably not sit down and read the book from cover to cover; however, they may read a chapter here or there. The portions on spiritualism would be a blessing to most readers. Going door to door JW style would be an effective approach. One of the early megachurches started with a pastor and his wife going door to door. From what I recall, most SDA pastors are not big on witnessing. One teacher at PUC more or less ridiculed the idea of witnessing, saying that witnessing is a noun not a verb. Just be a Christian was his idea.

[Gregory Matthews]

I do not consider The Great Controversy to be perfect.   It is not the best source of history that is available.  However, I consider it to have value in its discussion of salvation and the activity of God in human life.

However, I consider it to be ineffective when used in mass mailings and the funds expended are largely wasted.  In addition, I believe that such mass mailings   result in more negative feelings about SDAs and the message that God has given us to proclaim than Positive feelings.

In prior studies of such mailings conversions have been limited to from one to four people.  I have written on this in the past, but do not have the citations before me as I write now.  

In short:  The money that we spend in such mailings is better spent in other evangelistic efforts.  It sems to me that the people most in favor to such are people who are either not directly involved in evangelism, or are long removed from pastoral care, or simply are going along with the people in power because they do not want to rock the boat.

 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In prior studies of such mailings conversions have been limited to from one to four people. 

Sociologist Ron Lawson studied the effectiveness of large evangelistic crusades in Africa, crusades that resulted in 1600 baptisms and big press coverage in the states. He found that about 50 of the  baptizees could be accounted for after 3 years. In short, traditional methods of evangelism are largely ineffective, at least in the cases he studied. 

The Patterns, Sources, and Implications of Rapid Church Growth within International Seventh-day Adventism: Applying and Testing Stark’s Revised General Model – Ronald L. Lawson Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Queens College, CUNY (ronaldlawson.net)

According to Lawson, in the U.S., Adventism is growing primarily among poorly educated, unemployed, poverty-stricken people of color. See Lawsons article above for various methods of "cooking" church growth books.

[Kevin H]

Thank you Greg and GHansen. Yes, the book is not perfect. I fear that most who want to mail it out have anti-Catholic motives, and are missing the message it gives on Spiritualism (existentialism) and Christian Nationalism VS. Liberty of Conscience. It might be better if we learn these lessons then introduce these messages to others, and if they are interested in reading the book, let them know the strong and weak points.  We need friendship evangelism and a way of preaching the 3 Angels message in a way that brings glory to God,  Our pioneers told us where to dig for treasure in the text; but instead of us using the tools that be began to get in the mid 1840s (close enough to 1844 for me) , we stop at the text and build up a temple to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 

For Missionary books by Mrs. White; I still support Steps to Christ, and for the church to publish under one cover "The Origin of Evil" "Why was Sin Permitted" "God Made Manifest through Christ" "Gethsemane" all leading to "It is Finished".  

[GHansen]

The Great Controversy's "anti-catholic" views have largely been criticized and cited as a reason for dismissing the relevance of the book. A Jesuit priest with whom I discussed the book cited its "typical 19th century anti-Catholicism." Protestant Christians should be anti-Catholic.       Anti-catholicism doesn't signal ignorant, hate filled rhetoric. A distinction can be made between anti-Catholic and anti-papal. Perhaps anti-papal works better for those aware of the good people and blessings found in certain quarters of the RC church. In the 19th century, in England, there was a decided movement toward Rome, known as the Oxford Movement. Anti-Catholicism wasn't necessarily typical.

[Gregory Matthews]

The following article is well worthy of consideration.

https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2022/great-controversy-sowing-confusion-or-conviction

 

[Kevin H]

On 11/5/2022 at 1:35 AM, GHansen said:

The Great Controversy's "anti-catholic" views have largely been criticized and cited as a reason for dismissing the relevance of the book. A Jesuit priest with whom I discussed the book cited its "typical 19th century anti-Catholicism." Protestant Christians should be anti-Catholic.       Anti-catholicism doesn't signal ignorant, hate filled rhetoric. A distinction can be made between anti-Catholic and anti-papal. Perhaps anti-papal works better for those aware of the good people and blessings found in certain quarters of the RC church. In the 19th century, in England, there was a decided movement toward Rome, known as the Oxford Movement. Anti-Catholicism wasn't necessarily typical.

True; it is a very powerful book, looks at lessons that we happen to have seen over history in paganism, the Church-State of the middle ages (continuing today) the French Revolution; but she draws amazing lessons from them on liberty of conscience, and looking at the lessons and principles the book can benefit far outside of Adventism; and yes, even be a blessing to Catholics and Jews who end up never removing their membership from Catholic Church or the synagogue. Your post shows that you have gone beyond a superficial reading of the text and I want to congratulate you for that. But I fear that there are too many Adventists who "love this book" who has not gone beyond a superficial reading and have missed the forest for the trees, and focus on trees that would just put down non-Adventists, especially the Catholics. 

In academy, college and seminary spirit of prophecy classes, some letters that Mrs. White wrote were read. They were talking about her difficulty in maintaining a balance of needing to show the message that we need, but without becoming anti-Catholic. I'm not sure of the sources, but I've heard them read three times at three different schools. I wish that this/these letters could be printed in the front of the book. People being aware of certain ways of giving the message for the specific listeners, are able to get the message. 

Once, I don't remember where I returned from, but I flew into NY City, visited a friend in New Jersey, and then he dropped me off at a bus station where I could take the bus that comes from NY City to home. My friend dropped me of on his way to work, so I knew I'd have some time. While waiting I was reading "The Impending Conflict" The last few chapters of the Great Controversy. 

While I was waiting, a bus pulled in, and an elderly lady in very expensive looking clothes got off the bus. She checked the parking lot, then entered the bus station, took a look around and made a bee line to me and asked "Why is there evil in the world?" Being caught off guard I replied "What?" and she repeated "Why is there evil in the world" and went on to say that her cousin's husband was the mayor of a local community,  but had a sudden heart attack and died. No one could drive down to the city to pick her up so she took the bus up. In the bus station she saw all these homeless people struggling to get by. Her cousin's husband had worked to try to improve the life of homeless people; so why do those people continue to suffer, while someone who was trying to make their lives better suddenly dies?" 

I could tell both by her looks and a neckless that she was Jewish. I talked some to her about the book I was reading, especially the chapter on the origin of evil. After I was done she asked if she could read the book. I said that it was fine, however, the author wrote to a Christian context and audience in the 1800s, so she may find some phrases offensive. She replied that she understood, and I gave her the book. She read the full chapter and glanced here and there through out the book until her ride came. When leaving she came up to me and said "This book makes sense, and I can understand now!" and gave me a hug and took the book with her as a gift. Reading with a little bit of discernment can help people read the deeper message of the book. But we have enough Adventists who may have read the book several times, yet miss the message.  

[GHansen]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The following article is well worthy of consideration.

I noticed in mainstream media an article a few days ago about praying for the dead. Millions of people will see this article. Probably more RC evangelism than news, I hope all the people who read that nonsense could/would read the chapters in The Great Controversy on the state of the dead. Great Controversy is more of a reference book than a novel. Read a chapter here or there, learn something new or see another point of view. The spirit world hasn't passed away. Some of the things in the book are more relevant now than when the book was written. Rather than the entire book, the chapters on the state of the dead could be sent out. People interested in more could request more. I admit, however that I know very little about soul winning or evangelism. I've probably turned more people away from Christianity than I have attracted to it. I wonder what kind of evangelistic history the critics of the mailing have. How many people have become Adventist or even Christian by their influence? I'd like to know.

Years ago, I attended an ethnic church. There was an elderly gentleman there, a refugee/immigrant who privately published a magazine in his language. Other people in the church were very much against what he was doing. They had various reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to do such a thing. What was the harm in it? An old guy sharing his faith as best he could. People have been converted by less sophisticated means. With God's spirit at work, a single page from GC could change a person's life, as could a single verse of Scripture. 

 

[Kevin H]

1 hour ago, GHansen said:

I noticed in mainstream media an article a few days ago about praying for the dead. Millions of people will see this article. Probably more RC evangelism than news, I hope all the people who read that nonsense could/would read the chapters in The Great Controversy on the state of the dead. Great Controversy is more of a reference book than a novel. Read a chapter here or there, learn something new or see another point of view. The spirit world hasn't passed away. Some of the things in the book are more relevant now than when the book was written. Rather than the entire book, the chapters on the state of the dead could be sent out. People interested in more could request more. I admit, however that I know very little about soul winning or evangelism. I've probably turned more people away from Christianity than I have attracted to it. I wonder what kind of evangelistic history the critics of the mailing have. How many people have become Adventist or even Christian by their influence? I'd like to know.

Years ago, I attended an ethnic church. There was an elderly gentleman there, a refugee/immigrant who privately published a magazine in his language. Other people in the church were very much against what he was doing. They had various reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to do such a thing. What was the harm in it? An old guy sharing his faith as best he could. People have been converted by less sophisticated means. With God's spirit at work, a single page from GC could change a person's life, as could a single verse of Scripture. 

 

When Jesus healed the one or two men when the pigs ran into the sea; this was a pagan area. they would not have been Jews. They wanted to go and study with Jesus but Jesus had 12 good reasons to turn down their request. Instead he sent them as the first missionaries to the pagans. I wonder how comfortable we would feel if we could go back and attend their meetings or however they worked. But they shared the best they could. 

[phkrause]

I don't know, I've never personally felt that the GC was anti-catholic! I believe she told it as it is, period! How else was she to say what needed to be said??

[GHansen]

Not sure what is wrong with being "anti catholic" unless it refers to hatred of individuals. I'm against the Papacy as an institution. Probably much of what EGW wrote about the papacy wanting to rule the world is correct. That doesn't mean that all RCs or every corner of Roman Catholicism is bad. 

[Kevin H]

Indeed. We are not Catholics and we have reasons not to be Catholic. Historically, the Catholic church has been enmeshed in government. When  Al Smith, and John Kennedy ran for president; there was worry that they would mix the church and state and have views of the Pope become the law of the land. Al Smith thus lost, however Kennedy was aware of this issue and addressed it head on talking about the difference between being a Catholic politician, and an American politician who happens to be a member of the Catholic church. Kennedy had to consciously maintain the separation of church and state. 

Today, our citizens have forgotten Kennedy's monumental message. Over the past few decades we have lost sight of the separation of church and state. The one party has started to show preference for evangelical Christianity, we have politicians and judges who are trying to enforce the beliefs of Evangelical Christianity. The other party has not gotten as far, but does have a large voice that wants to show preference for the religion of secular humanism, push for the beliefs of secular humanism and stifle the voice of other religions, especially Christianity. 

There are some things that we should fight on a grass roots level. I believe that abortion is one of these. We are to work with people who would consider abortion and help them see other options and encourage them to choose other options.  The government's job is to provide something less dangerous for those we either did not yet get to, or who were unchangeably determined to have an abortion. 

In Timothy we read about how in the last days people will have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. Instead of getting off our posteriors and try to reach these people out of love and the Holy Spirit, we want to sit on our fat posterior, denying the power of the Holy Spirit to work and turn to the power of the government to force them to follow what we wish. 

The book "The Great Controversy" lays out the issues of chaos (the dragon of Revelation 12) on the one hand, and the control (force, the beast of Revelation 13); as opposed to the freedom we have through Christ (the 3 angels of Revelation 14). Over history we saw a glairing example of the control in how the church and state was over the dark ages. People like Kennedy who would consciously serve in office following the American principles of separation of church and state of Roger Williams, Jefferson/Madison. Ideas of individual choice further inclusion of wider groups from Jackson's application to the common white man and that women can improve their role in society; and this leading to "why only the common white man? and why should women stay in this secondary level and not be involved with all aspects of life? that we see in people such as Sojourner Truth, Fredric Douglas, eventually Abraham Lincoln, Susan Anthony, among others. 

But I fear too many who read the Great Controversy have blinded themselves to the deeper message, and think only "POPE, POPE, POPE" While the Pope was a major player in the 5th head, we tend to turn the entire beast into the pope. Elements attacking liberty of conscience and pushing for control are embraced as long as it is not from the Vatican and not directly Sunday Laws. 

While the Papacy will play a role in the 7th head, the Bible seems to put it in more of a background position, with the world uniting in economic cooperation being in the foreground. Over history the papacy gave us a picture of what to avoid. But sadly too many of us don't look at that picture but only the specific application and willing to accept what we are warned about as long as it comes from other directions. 

Please forgive me for being political now, but sadly we have recently seen how people wanted, and still want someone to become our American pope and king. And clean the land from ungodly abominations.