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Has America Ever Been a “Christian Nation”?


Stan

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What exactly is Christian Nationalism? And should I, as a Christian, jump on board with it? Or is it the big, bad wolf that many have made it out to be?

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Very interesting topic.
The link didn't work for me so don't know what it says there,  
However, in answer to the question, I don't think America was ever a "Christian nation", though if the Puritans would have been in control over more than their communities, and exerted their ideals over all of America it might have ended up as a "Christian nation" with government-controlled Christianity. at least after their concept of Christianity.   
Yet it is true that America was built on Protestant principles.  In a large way, protestant principles shaped the culture.  It is the loss of this culture that has many Christians worried.

Christian Nationalism would like to see America as a Christian nation with more government and church together power and laws.  

Christianity Today describes it thus:
 

Quote

Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a “Christian nation”—not merely as an observation about American history, but as a prescriptive program for what America must continue to be in the future. ....
Christian nationalists do not reject the First Amendment and do not advocate for theocracy, but they do believe that Christianity should enjoy a privileged position in the public square (Christianity Today Feb 2021)

The problem with that is that sooner or later the government has to decide who is, and who is not, part of that "Christian" nation,   And that usually results in persecution.   

Remember back in history, when Constantine made peace with Christians, and later Christianity was made the religion of the empire?  People rejoiced; persecution was supposedly ended. Christianity had won.  Well neither was correct.   Constantine wanted to unite his empire through Christianity, but very quickly learned that Christianity itself was not in unity.   Almost immediately persecution was resumed, this time against groups like the Donatists and other Christian groups who didn't follow the state endorsed version of beliefs. 

It's a rather predictable result of religious nationalism. 

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On 11/16/2022 at 5:32 PM, Ulunruh said:

Christian Nationalism

In the "Townhall" forum there is a "Christian Nationalism" thread! Check it out when you get a chance. It's not very long, but has a few comments that are pretty interesting!!

phkrause

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1}
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catholic Europe (yes, small "c") your religion tended to be where you were born. In the Middle East and North Africa it became the different groups of Islam; then we had areas that were Eastern Orthodox, Western Roman Catholics, and the Reformed Western Roman Catholics (Protestants);  and here and there pockets of Jews which could be kicked out whenever. If you wanted to practice differently from the geography religion where you lived you either had to move or risk being persecuted. 

As Protestantism broke into more sections, people such as the Puritans came over to the Americas to make a geography for their religion, thus a continuation of catholic Europe. 

Then Roger Williams bought the state of Rhode Island with a crazy idea of liberty of conscience. William Penn wanted Pennsylvania to be a spot of catholic Europe for Quakers; but could not get enough Quakers to settle the area, so Penn took Roger William's liberty of conscience to Pennsylvania. The idea of liberty of conscience began to spread, especially in the Americas. Now, I don't know the year and if Roger William's thought influenced this, but we also started to see a break away from catholic Europe in the first settlement for Maryland, which had the state religion of Roman Catholic, however, did something very non-Catholic. On the one side of town they had all the public buildings; then you had the homes, and on the other end of town was the church.

In the French Revolution, the French tried to make the French religion of catholic Europe to be secular humanism.  

Originally the first amendment was for no national religion for the whole country, but the states could continue their state churches. There were the ideas of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to apply Roger Williams liberty of conscience to the whole country. When Jefferson became president people though he was going to come and take their Bibles, so many were hidden. People feared that Jefferson would follow the idea of the French Revolution and that the American religion would be enforced secular humanism. However, as liberty of conscience was implemented, churches came to realize that they had more freedom then ever before when they were paid for by and controlled the state.  Liberty of conscience became part of our American freedoms. American became an open market place for religions to share what they have to offer and people out of informed consent choose the religion they found the most reasonable. A nation without king or pope. 

I never thought of this before; but I just got the idea that maybe we can say that America's traditional religion is Williams/Jefferson/Madison liberty of conscience,  as opposed to saying that we are a Christians or a Secular nation. 

In recent decades there has been a growing trend to either make the United States pre-revolution catholic Europe, Sadly, I've heard that General Flynn made a statement of "One Nation, One  Religion". Pushing for Evangelical Christianity to be the national religion. And we are finding others wanting to make the United States  a post French Revolution secularism; where only secularism is in the open and your religious beliefs need to be kept to yourself; "Freedom From Religion" thus destroying Jefferson's open marketplace of thought including religion. 

In the 1800s there were people who were very grounded in the ideas of the American Revolution, especially as applied through the thoughts of Jefferson/Madison, only instead of focusing this on to politics, they focused it on to other aspects of life, including religious people applying this to religion. Before his conversion William Miller was one of these to apply this to other aspects of life, as well as politics. Then came his conversion, and the Adventist ideas that began with Joachim of Fiore, developed through the Franciscans, and Wycliff, influenced the developing Reformation, became an Adventist movement in England in the 1700s (which Sir Isaac Newton was a member) jumped the pond and in the American version this idea became welded in the minds of Miller and others to the ideals of the American Revolution, including Williams/Jefferson/Madison's liberty of conscience, and became Millerism, from which came Seventh-day Adventism. Often we start with Miller, but we would not have had adventism were it not for the ideas of someone like Joachim of Fiore, and Seventh-day Adventism would have looked a lot different were it not for Rogers/Jefferson/Madison as shaped by the age of Jackson. This background of Miller that he had when he embraced Adventism Christianity gave the Seventh-day Adventist church a larger seeing the foundational and critical importance of liberty of conscience. 

In addition to how those two ideas were welded together in Miller and others of the time; Millerism had influenced many denominations who had creeds that defined their beliefs. As Millerites were thrown out of their many different beloved churches for their love of Adventism as well and thus did not fit the creed; they decided to form a church where instead of a defining creed;  they would have a handful of landmarks, but as long as they were not fanatical, they were free to follow the Bible to their understanding. For example, while some religions formed around that time had questions about the trinity, those other churches made their questioning of the trinity a test of fellowship. Although many of our members held similar questions, we did NOT make this a test of fellowship. You were free to become a Seventh-day Adventist whether you were or were not a trinitarian. (Later, the the trinity became the heart of Mrs. White's great controversy philosophy, and as the key to dealing with the 1888 crisis)

From time to time we would give a list of beliefs more detailed than the landmarks; but instead of them being a ridged creed defining who we are; these lists were "This is the general neighborhood of beliefs where you will tend to pretty much find us" and these were purposefully written in fairly vague language to be as inclusive as possible. As we formed the 27 (later the 28) our leaders continued this same tradition- however some of them wrote an accompanying book which spelled out in clearer language how they HOPED we would understand the 27, but the vague, flexible 27  was the official and the book the suggested. (As you can guess, I get nervous when there are motions to make the language of the 28 to be made less vague.)

What we have seen in this story is an application of Revelation 12, 13 and 14. The dragon in Revelation 12 is the historical chaos monster. The French Revolution's definition of freedom being the absence of law leads to chaos. Spiritualism is that you have your truth and I have mine. The philosophy of Existentialism where truth is defined by your personal existential experience. The first deception of Satan of God is really not God and thus has no right to place a law over us. 

In Revelation 13 we have a beast that we tend to make the pope, the pope, the pope and the Catholics. But this beast is any organized group that we allow to dictate our beliefs to us. The 7 heads are those ruling over most of God's people from the son of David (Zedekiah) until we are once again ruled over by THE SON of DAVID. These are the 7 periods of reign in place of Christ, or in Greek antichrist. 1) Babylon 2.) Medio-Persia 3.) Greece 4.) Rome 5.) The rule of the church over the middle ages, Clay in the Bible is represents that molded by God; but here the clay is molded by the iron/the state, thus a "Church State" catholic Europe. 6.) The deadly wound/the toes of iron and clay, The crowns are now on 10 horns, not on the 6th head. (Our artists should not divide the horns over all 7 heads. They are during the deadly wound, or 6th head but then shares power with the 7th head). A period of independent nations instead of a great empire, some nations offering more freedom, others more oppressive. Thus the beast is and is not and is yet to come. The beast is still there but is not because it is the deadly wound to the 6th head, but is to come in that it will be healed into the 7th head/attempt for the toes to join together. A 7th head. Later Revelation tells us that the 7th head is different from the previous. The previous ruled through warfare, conquest and power. The 7th head is the 10 horns uniting together under economic cooperation and the merchants of the earth (the corporations) are in power; although the fallen woman is riding her. 

This beast is a counterfeit God the Father, While to the dragon our existential experience is everything; the beast does not really care about your existential experience. The beast will tell you what to believe and your job is to comply. 

The lamblike beast is a counterfeit God the Son. God the Son reveals God as our personal friend and brings us into relationship with God the Father. The false prophet tells those who are uncomfortable with how they need to go against something in their conscience to comply to the beast; the false prophet says "It will be to your existential advantage to not worry about your conscience but just comply to the rules of the beast."

In Revelation 14 we find a God who is the ultimate truth, but who works with were we are and who we are in our growth and existential situations, but not stopping there, but leads us into deeper and deeper understanding of him who is the way the truth the life. catholic Europe is a good picture of what the beast does. The French Revolution is a good picture of what the dragon is like. The freedom of the American Revolution, especially with Williams/Jefferson/Madison (and adjusted by the age of Jackson) and the early Adventists joining from multi religious backgrounds trying to make a church that has room for all of them, is a picture of the three angels message. 

The dragon and the beast are fighting to take control of this country. While Satan prefers the ideas of the French Revolution, the demons found it exhausting. They had to  develop temptations to each person's situation. They hate us too much to get to know us well enough to cater to us; it is so much easier when you have an organization controlling the masses and deceive many to only a couple of temptations; as they found they were able to do in the ancient religions, in catholic Europe, and in Nazi Germany. And the false prophet gets us to compromise our conscience by telling us that it is to our existential advantage to just go along with the system and to pressure others into complying. 

People have poked fun at our Seventh-day Adventist picture of persecution. Today it does not seem so strange. Look at all the violence. Attacks especially against those different. Can you imagine how this will be when the state allows it?

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Just my thoughts:
It seems the American left core that are in leadership right now, are pushing for a  post French Revolution secularism; where only secularism is in the open and a person's religious beliefs need to be kept to one's self; "Freedom From Religion".  
They also seem to be making a lack of morals a human right that needs to be celebrated, displayed and promoted.

Actually the American Revolution and the French Revolution in the eighteenth century had roots in many of the same philosophical thinking.   But the high protestant element in America kept things in a more moral and stable state.

When one, or the other gets too powerful things will end in the same reign of terror that descended on France back then.

The Adventist prophetic understanding, says it will be the American right which brings in the final crises.  
Right now the left is pushing things to the brink on the anti-religion, secularism side.  I think we are going to see a big back lash against the present left agenda.   The religious right will  push for political force to drive back the left.  Either Trump or someone like him in the near future is going to get a sweeping landslide and push hard against the moral corruption. 
In many ways it will seem a good thing to many Adventists as we deplore the moral corruption all around us.   BUT it would be uniting church and state, breaking down the wall of separation, and heading back to the "catholic europe" system  and Sunday laws will be on the same ticket. 

"When the state shall use its power to enforce the decrees and sustain the institutions of the church--then will Protestant America have formed an image to the papacy, and there will be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin.--7BC 976 (1910)"|

Seems to me America is heading in that direction.  

" 
 

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Christian Nationalism is not the New Testament depiction of what Christianity should be.

Throughout Christian history we find two diverse and disparate conceptions as to what the Church of Christ is and what its relation is to the society that surrounds it.

1. The Christian church is an element IN society, not society itself. It consists of believing folk and of them only.

2. The Christian church IS society in which all are bound together by a common religious loyalty. All society is expected to give support to the religious principles of the accepted view of Christianity.

When Christianity began it was an element IN society, exerting its influence on society, yet not all society was Christian.

The Catholic Church followed the other program, expecting everyone in society to abide by the common religious loyalty to the reigning church.

Interestingly, the reformers protested against being regulated by the reigning church, BUT they could not seem to let go of the concept that ALL society needs to be loyal to the same religion. Thus they began to persecute those that differed with them, following the pattern set by the catholic church.

In America we see the Puritans fleeing from the domination of the reigning church in England, only to set up their "new world" with the same principles of disciplining everyone who deviated from their set of religious principles.

It was a novel idea that Roger Williams brought to the New World. Like the early Pilgrims he came to enjoy religious freedom; but, unlike them, he saw—what so few in his time had yet seen—that this freedom was the inalienable right of all, whatever might be their creed. Freedom was NOT just for one group which felt it had arrived at perfect truth. No, religious freedom was all religions, regardless of their creed.

This has made America a wonderful place of freedom for religion and Christianity.

Yet, the Devil has used this freedom to bring in all manner of perversions that muddy the waters. Where does government responsibility for the well being of it's citizens stop, and where does freedom of religious expression begin?

There are a whole host if issues that fall in the gray realm.

But history has proven one thing.

When a religion that believes it is right, demands all of society adhere to that religion and follow it's principles, it will always lead to persecution. It is not freedom of religion, it becomes only freedom to do what the reigning religion demands, if you believe differently, you become a menace to society.

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