Will there be non-Christians in heaven?

[Humble Disciple]

“He has given light and life to all, and according to the measure of light given, each is to be judged.” - The Desire of Ages, 210.

Luke 12
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Are there any more relevant scripture passages? 

[Humble Disciple]

50 minutes ago, Humble Disciple said:

Are there any more relevant scripture passages? 

What I mean is, would anyone like to share their own passages of scripture related to this topic? 

[Kevin H]

Yes, the book of Jonah. The Sailors who were more familiar with Judaism started worshiping YHWEH, the God of Israel. When he got to Nineveh, they were converted to GOD. History tells us that at this time the entire Assyrian Empire had a religious revival with a form of monotheism; but they were worshiping the God that they understood to be the Most High God. 

In Daniel we learn of Nebuchadnezzar's conversion; Historically we find that Nebuchadnezzar did have 7 years where he became like Howard Hughes, but then he regained his senses and became a much kinder person a much more religious person, but a faithful worshiper of who the Babylonians saw as the Most High God.  

[Humble Disciple]

According to the above passage in the Koran, righteous Jews and righteous Christians will be saved, without needing to convert to the religion of Islam. This is important to remember in case a Muslim were to ever dispute to you regarding the validity of your Christian faith.
 

[Niblo]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:40 PM, Humble Disciple said:

According to the above passage in the Koran, righteous Jews and righteous Christians will be saved, without needing to convert to the religion of Islam. This is important to remember in case a Muslim were to ever dispute to you regarding the validity of your Christian faith.
 

I am a Muslim (a former Christian) and I can confirm that what you have said (and quoted) is correct.

There is absolutely no requirement for a Christian or a Jew to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you.  If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).   

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title).  This is what He has to say about them:

‘Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation.  Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever.  God is well pleased with them and they with Him.  All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina 7 -8; my emphasis ).  

 Take especial note of these verses.  It has been my privilege to know – and to love – many Christians who were shining examples of Christian love and good practice.  These verses assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven.  These verses assure me that every Christian, and every Jew, who carries the Exalted in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward.  This is a solemn promise, and the Exalted does not renege on His promises. 

[Humble Disciple]

The Bible is clear that our good deeds will never be enough to earn our salvation, that we must be covered by God’s grace through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. If there will be non-Christians in heaven, it’s because God showed pity on their ignorance of Biblical truths. This presumably would not include those who willfully rejected Gospel truths.

[Niblo]

Then we are agreed.....Christians do not need to become Muslims.

Have a nice day.

[Niblo]

By the way, it is unwise of folk to cramp the Almighty into a box of their own design, and then to claim exclusive rights to its contents. 

[Gustave]

Countless non-Christians. 

[8thdaypriest]

There is a difference between "being in Heaven" and being resurrected into the Kingdom of Messiah on the earth.

The "rest of the dead" will be raised to continue their lives at the 8th millennium.  

There are dozens of Scripture passages that describe Gentiles/strangers/peoples/aliens living IN and around Israel, after she is "returned to the land" and the Kingdom of Messiah is set up.

I personally believe these will be all of those who lived in ignorance during their lifetimes.  Jesus did say, "If you were blind, you would have no sin."

The "daily" sacrifices covered all sins of ignorance.  So the blood of Jesus will "cover" these people, UNTIL they can be made aware of their sins.  I believe this will happen during the 8th millennium [The 8th Day].

The "wicked" of this age, [those who knowingly sin against the LORD] from Cain to the Glorious Return, will be resurrected and judged by Christ at His Glorious Return (Dan 12:1-3).  They will then either be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, or left to die in the plagues.  "The Beast" is not just one human being, or one demon either.  The Beast is Satan's system of domination and persecution.  The Harlot is not just one woman.  The "False Prophet" is not just one person/or demon.  It is Satan's system of deception. 

[Ron Amnsn]

This is probably not the kind of answer you are looking for.

Hebrews 11 lists a lot of people of faith that I expect will be in the Kingdom.  None of the people named in Hebrews 11 were Christians, and several of those lived before there were any Jews.

Luke 1:5-6 mentions Zechariah and Elizabeth as righteous.  They were Jewish, not Christians.  Luke 2 mentions Simeon as righteous, and Anna seems to be in that category as well.  They were not Christians.  They were Jewish. 

It sounds like all these non-Christians will be in the Kingdom.

[Gustave]

On 4/8/2023 at 3:30 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

This is probably not the kind of answer you are looking for.

Hebrews 11 lists a lot of people of faith that I expect will be in the Kingdom.  None of the people named in Hebrews 11 were Christians, and several of those lived before there were any Jews.

Luke 1:5-6 mentions Zechariah and Elizabeth as righteous.  They were Jewish, not Christians.  Luke 2 mentions Simeon as righteous, and Anna seems to be in that category as well.  They were not Christians.  They were Jewish. 

It sounds like all these non-Christians will be in the Kingdom.

Indeed, it's because they all followed the Natural or Moral law of God. 

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:23 AM, Gustave said:

Indeed, it's because they all followed the Natural or Moral law of God. 

What you say doesn't match what the Biblical account says.

Luke tells us that Zechariah and Elizabeth were Levites and followed all the commands and statutes of the Lord.  They were obviously following the special instructions for Levites and priestly families as revealed to Moses through special revelation.  Is all that now included in your theoretical man-made categories of "Natural" law and "Moral" law?  Simeon and Anna were worshiping in the Temple in Jerusalem.  In order to do that they would have needed to follow a lot of instructions provided by special revelation regarding the Temple at Jerusalem and how to worship there.  From what you've said in previous years, I'm quite certain you previously classified much of what Simeon and Anna did as they worshiped at the Temple as part of the theoretical man-made category of  "ceremonial" law. 

Hebrews 11 says Abel offered a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous.  Apparently Abel was following more than what you identify as "Natural" and "Moral" law, unless you've begun to classify God's instructions regarding sacrifices differently than you did a few years ago.

Hebrews 11 tells us that it was by building an ark that Noah became an heir of righteousness.  Is building an ark somehow now included as part of "Natural" or "Moral" law?  If so, it seems you have made major changes to how you define the way you use those terms.  The account in Genesis makes it fairly clear that Noah was following specific instructions given by special revelation from God when he built the ark.

Did you look at what Hebrews 11 highlights from the life of Abraham as being acts of faith.  Abraham is also commended for preparing a sacrifice.  The account in Genesis makes it clear that Abraham too was following specific instructions given by special revelation from God when he prepared that sacrifice.  Gustave, where exactly do we find in "Natural" law or "Moral" law that Abraham was supposed to prepare to sacrifice his son?  If that was part of "Natural" law or "Moral" law, why aren't you doing that too?

Hebrews 11 tells us that the faith of Moses can be seen in his choice to forsake Egypt and suffer affliction with the Israelites, by keeping the Passover, and by passing through the Red Sea.  Where in "Natural" law and the "Moral" law would Moses have found the principles to discern that being with the Israelites was superior to being in Egypt.  Where in "Natural" or "Moral" law would Moses have discovered how to keep the Passover?  How would Moses have found in "Natural" or "Moral" law that it would be better to cross to the other side of the Red Sea?  Wouldn't all those things require special revelation provided by God?  If they are indeed part of "Natural" or "Moral" law, why don't you do those things too?

[Gustave]

You've got that backwards Ron, Scripture calls it ONE LAW and within that one law a person can use common sense to identify between Moral and Ceremonial. 

"THE LAW" is the 1st 5 Books of the Bible, every word of it - and this all Jew's agreed on (Pharisees, sadducees, Essenes). 

 

Man is commanded by his own nature to do certain things, call it that little voice or whatever you want.

All ancient people were commanded by nature to honor what they believed to be God's - the way in which they worshipped their God's was ceremonial. 

Take an individual who has never had instruction in the Christian, Jewish or Islamic Faith - even a total Pagan would have a problem with you if you tried to steal, have an affair with his wife, etc. That's an example of Moral law. 

Moses is explicit in what he said:

 

Exodus 10, 24

Then Pharaoh called Moses, and said, “Go, serve the Lord; your children also may go with you; only let your flocks and your herds remain behind.”  But Moses said, “You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.  Our cattle also must go with us; not a hoof shall be left behind, for we must take of them to serve the Lord our God, and we do not know with what we must serve the Lord until we arrive there

Moses KNEW they would be worshipping their God, the real God (that's the moral or natural part) yet at that same time Moses DIDN'T KNOW HOW the worship would be conducted (that's the ceremonial part) until they got to where they were going. Read Leviticus 23, the special Feasts of the Lord - man is not commanded by nature to observe a specific day in a specific month no more than he is commanded to observe a specific day within what constitutes our modern week. 

As for your comment on Able the text isn't saying at all what you suggest. It only states that God had regard for Able's sacrifice and didn't have regard for Cains - according to Hebrews 11, 4 Able offered his Sacrifice "BY FAITH" and according to Verse 1 Able DIDN'T KNOW his sacrifice would be more acceptable than Cain's because he had special information as to what to offer, he had faith that it was! The text even explains that God asked Cain why he was upset about it - essentially telling him he shouldn't worry about it because if he does well he will be accepted. You are evidently getting out of this that Cain KNEW he should be sacrificing an animal and opted to blow it off and instead offered cucumbers and potatoes! Your way of interpreting the text is odd. 

Noah wasn't commanded by nature to make a huge boat - God personally TOLD HIM to do it - again, you are confounding the text which doesn't say at all what you are saying it does. Hebrews 11 is all about what Faith really is and why Faith WITHOUT works is indeed dead. Abraham was told by God to move - Abraham had faith because he ACTED ON God's instructions and packed all his stuff up and moved. 

You really should sit down and read Deut 5 and KEEP reading past Verse 22! It clearly says the ONLY REASON God stopped speaking when He hit the 10th Commandment was because He took pity on the terrified people. God tells Moses: 

"Oh that they had such a mind as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their children for ever!  Go and say to them, “Return to your tents.”  But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you all the commandment and the statutes and the ordinances which you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess.’

 

 

 

[Ron Amnsn]

22 hours ago, Gustave said:

You've got that backwards Ron, Scripture calls it ONE LAW and within that one law a person can use common sense to identify between Moral and Ceremonial. 

"THE LAW" is the 1st 5 Books of the Bible, every word of it - and this all Jew's agreed on (Pharisees, sadducees, Essenes). 

 

Man is commanded by his own nature to do certain things, call it that little voice or whatever you want.

All ancient people were commanded by nature to honor what they believed to be God's - the way in which they worshipped their God's was ceremonial. 

Yes.  Scripture is clear that God's Torah is one law.

But nowhere in Scripture does it tell us that common sense or a "a little voice" overrides God's instructions.  That is how people become deceived. 

If you believe that humans evolved from ignorant apes and cave men, then your theory of "Moral" law and "Natural" law would make sense.  But Scripture tells us that humans were created in God's image and the first humans received instructions directly from God.  Every human alive today had ancestors like Adam and Noah that received direct revelation from God or had access to instructions by people like Adam and Enoch who walked with God.

If things like human jealousy regarding wives determines what is "Moral" law, then what prevents human jealousy over other things such as authority from being regarded as "Moral" law as well.  The common sense of Dathan and Abiram and their "inner voice" told them that it was morally wrong for Moses and Aaron to hold more authority than others held.  If "Moral" law is derived from nature, then Dathan and Abiram would have held the "Moral" high ground and Moses and Aaron and God would have been in the wrong.  That, of course, would be ridiculous.

[Ron Amnsn]

23 hours ago, Gustave said:

As for your comment on Able the text isn't saying at all what you suggest. It only states that God had regard for Able's sacrifice and didn't have regard for Cains - according to Hebrews 11, 4 Able offered his Sacrifice "BY FAITH" and according to Verse 1 Able DIDN'T KNOW his sacrifice would be more acceptable than Cain's because he had special information as to what to offer, he had faith that it was! The text even explains that God asked Cain why he was upset about it - essentially telling him he shouldn't worry about it because if he does well he will be accepted. You are evidently getting out of this that Cain KNEW he should be sacrificing an animal and opted to blow it off and instead offered cucumbers and potatoes! Your way of interpreting the text is odd.

Hebrews 11 is full of people who demonstrated their FAITH by following direct detailed instructions from God.  That is what the author of Hebrews 11 recognized as FAITH -- doing things that God specifically instructed a person to do.  So it is clear that Abel too could have offered his sacrifice by FAITH even if he had been specifically instructed how to do it properly.

God also questioned Cain after he murdered Abel.  If being questioned by God were to be considered proof that a person had no prior knowledge regarding a situation, we would also have to acknowledge that Cain also did not know that murder was wrong.  That would destroy the foundation of your theoretical assertions regarding the source of "Moral" and "Natural" law.

[Gustave]

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Ron Amnsn said: Yes.  Scripture is clear that God's Torah is one law.

Yes, "the law" is EVERY commandment within the 1st 5 Books of the Bible.

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Ron Adnsn said: But nowhere in Scripture does it tell us that common sense or a "a little voice" overrides God's instructions.  That is how people become deceived. 

That little voice IS GOD (The Holy Spirit). Where you got 'overriding God's instructions' went past me. 

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Ron said: If you believe that humans evolved from ignorant apes and cave men, then your theory of "Moral" law and "Natural" law would make sense.  But Scripture tells us that humans were created in God's image and the first humans received instructions directly from God.  Every human alive today had ancestors like Adam and Noah that received direct revelation from God or had access to instructions by people like Adam and Enoch who walked with God.

Sorry to be the one to break this to you Ron but the Jews never believed that God was a hominid approximating what a human man looked like - this is simply alien to Judaism. The early SDA's took this concept from Joseph Smith. Adam and Noah were ignorant of the Feasts explained in Leviticus 23 as well as the aspects of the sacrificial cult. 

You seriously need to slow down a bit more - read Hebrews 11 AGAIN - it's frankly telling you that Able DIDN'T GET knowledge about sacrifice from Adam - it couldn't have said it any planer. Also read Exodus 10, 26 again and accept that Moses nor any of the Israelites knew any rubrics of worship. You are pretending Scripture is saying something its not. Noah wasn't observing a Sabbath any more than Adam and Eve did and your insistence to squeeze that idea into the text demonstrates its the only thing you can do. 

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow [ properly to pant, to exert oneself ] shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;...."

Look that up, it means what are in the brackets. Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden to live upon cursed ground that required daily attention. The text mentions nothing about Adam and Eve training Cain and Able up on the Sabbath and every 7th day they would rest. Our 1st Parents were thrown out of "God's Rest", that was the whole point.  Jews have believed this since the days of Moses Rosh Hashanah Theology and Themes | My Jewish Learning

God didn't need Cain to tell Him that he had murdered his Brother - what do you mean by this?

 

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:01 AM, Gustave said:

Man is commanded by his own nature to do certain things, call it that little voice or whatever you want.

When I spoke of the "little voice", I was quoting what you said above about something in man's own nature.

16 hours ago, Gustave said:

That little voice IS GOD (The Holy Spirit). Where you got 'overriding God's instructions' went past me.

Here you are apparently speaking of a different "little voice" than you spoke of earlier.

In what I wrote, "overriding God's instructions" refers to when humans use their "common sense" or their own "little voice" to determine whether God's instructions written in Torah belong to the man-made category called "Moral" law or to the man-made category called "Ceremonial" law.  Those who categorize some of God's instructions as "Ceremonial" law seem to consistently use that "Ceremonial" category in order to set aside some portion of God's law that they presume is no longer applicable, thereby overriding what God said about his Torah in the Torah itself and overriding what Jesus said about the Torah in the Sermon on the Mount.

[Ron Amnsn]

16 hours ago, Gustave said:

Sorry to be the one to break this to you Ron but the Jews never believed that God was a hominid approximating what a human man looked like - this is simply alien to Judaism.

Although the Jews beliefs about the substance or form of God may be interesting, what I wrote depends solely on Scripture, not on what the Jews may have believed or not believed.  Genesis 1:26, 27 says, "And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ... And God created man in His image, in the image of God He created him" (Tanak, JPS 1985). 

Although I may not have expressed it very well, my point was that every civilization throughout history has had access to fragments of truth that were passed down to them from their ancestors, some of whom (Adam & Eve, etc.) had access to instructions received directly from God.  It would be preposterous to assume that every instruction that God gave to Adam and his descendants was recorded in Scripture and that no other instructions were given to Adam and his descendants beyond what was recorded in Scripture.  It makes no sense to assume that the God who instructed us to teach our children to live righteously  would himself have refused to teach his child Adam the right way to do things.  It appears from Scripture that in the early years of the earth's history stories and other knowledge were passed down orally, rather than as written documents. For the first 900 years or so people could just go ask Adam himself if they want to know what happened or what God had said to him.  So we would likely be quite wrong if we presumed that everything humans knew about God's instructions was initially written down.

[Ron Amnsn]

17 hours ago, Gustave said:

Also read Exodus 10, 26 again and accept that Moses nor any of the Israelites knew any rubrics of worship.

You have stated that Moses and the Israelites did not know any rubrics of worship.  Therefore, if we suppose that you are correct in this statement, could we then conclude that everything that Moses already knew about worship was derived from "Moral" law or "Natural" law since it did not come from direct revelation from God?

In other words, am I understanding and stating your position correctly if I said that you believe Moses knew nothing about worship that would have come from direct revelation from God to Moses or his ancestors, and therefore everything Moses knew on that day that correctly corresponded to the law that would be given later must have been derived innately from "Moral" or "Natural" law?

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

When I spoke of the "little voice", I was quoting what you said above about something in man's own nature.

Here you are apparently speaking of a different "little voice" than you spoke of earlier.

In what I wrote, "overriding God's instructions" refers to when humans use their "common sense" or their own "little voice" to determine whether God's instructions written in Torah belong to the man-made category called "Moral" law or to the man-made category called "Ceremonial" law.  Those who categorize some of God's instructions as "Ceremonial" law seem to consistently use that "Ceremonial" category in order to set aside some portion of God's law that they presume is no longer applicable, thereby overriding what God said about his Torah in the Torah itself and overriding what Jesus said about the Torah in the Sermon on the Mount.

People who will be in heaven I assure you listened to that "little voice" urging them to obey God's MORAL or NATURAL LAW - that's why they are there. 

Like it or not some laws in the Torah equally applied to people well outside any contact with Israel - THOSE LAWS ARE ABSOLUTELY MORAL as man is commanded by nature to observe them in contrast to ceremonial laws which man is not commanded by nature to observe - laws that require a person be educated as to their existence. I hope you don't intend to debate against that but if you do oh well. 

 

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Ron said: You have stated that Moses and the Israelites did not know any rubrics of worship.  Therefore, if we suppose that you are correct in this statement, could we then conclude that everything that Moses already knew about worship was derived from "Moral" law or "Natural" law since it did not come from direct revelation from God?

What I'm saying is that Pharaoh knew sleeping with someone else's wife was WRONG and was upset with Abraham for not telling him the truth about the situation = an example of Moral or Natural law and this specific law along with the ones about stealing, murdering and honoring ones parents are universal even in savage cultures BECAUSE THEY ARE MORAL LAWS. Look, we were created by a Moral God therefore it stands to reason as God's creation we would be subject to moral laws - and every culture I know of had moral laws. What these cultures didn't have was knowledge of those things they would not have been commanded by Nature to observe. 

I'd be happy to walk though the logic chain on this with you if you disagree. 

 

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Ron said: In other words, am I understanding and stating your position correctly if I said that you believe Moses knew nothing about worship that would have come from direct revelation from God to Moses or his ancestors, and therefore everything Moses knew on that day that correctly corresponded to the law that would be given later must have been derived innately from "Moral" or "Natural" law?

What I'm saying is Moses DIDN'T know the rubrics of what was going to be Israel's CEREMONIAL LAW (those Feasts laid out in Leviticus 23). Moses would have absolutely known God's moral law for the simple fact Moses was created by God just like everyone down the line from Adam and Eve be they a savage in the Jungles of Africa, a Chinese person or an Indian living in what would become North America. 

This thread's question was if there would be non-Christians in heaven and I answered in the affirmative that there would be and further stated that the reason they would be there was because they followed the Natural Law - the law all are compelled to follow, regardless of what flavor of religion a person has been exposed to.