The state of the Pharisees

[CaseyButler]

Please consider:

During His ministry, Jesus was repeatedly criticized for associating with sinners and publicans. Several times when accused of this by the Pharisees, Jesus stated "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance", thus calling the Pharisees who questioned Him "righteous".

Jesus further implied a "righteous" character of the Pharisees when He told the people:

"...The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, (that) observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 23:2-3]

Also when He healed the leper, Jesus admonished him:

"And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 8:4]

This required gift is commanded in Leviticus 14:1-32, for those interested.

Would you agree that during Jesus' ministry on earth: Should not the Pharisees be called the Saints of Jesus' time, the servants of God?

Casey

[Dr. Shane]

Desire of Ages, chapter 67

[CaseyButler]

Hi Shane,

I know that Mrs. White understood that the Pharisees were God's servants, but I'm wondering how many people have considered the ramifications and would like to hear from people who have applied this concept to their own studies.

About His servants like the Pharisees, God said in Isaiah's prophecy of the Messiah:

"They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye (are) our gods.

"Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

"Who (is) blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger (that) I sent? who (is) blind as (he that is) perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?

"Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

"The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make (it) honourable.

"But this (is) a people robbed and spoiled; (they are) all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

"Who among you will give ear to this? (who) will hearken and hear for the time to come?" [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 42:17-23]

Re the last verse: Jesus heard and understood the usual consequences of committing oneself completely to God and dedicating one's life to serving Him.

He indeed called the Pharisees blind to what their onerous enforcement of their doctrines caused.

But it was also the Pharisees who magnified the Law and taught the people God's righteousness from scripture. We are told that Jesus Himself learned from them, and the other teachers of Judaism at the time.

Can anyone empathize with the Pharisees?

Jesus was angered with them, however we know that to the Church of Laodicea Jesus states:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and (that) the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." [KJV-Bible: Revelation 3:15-20]

Did Jesus love the Pharisees? How hard must it have been to have learned from them, and yet when Jesus taught they could not hear Him, they could not understand the Spiritual concepts of the Law Jesus came to share?

Casey

[Gerr]

Quote:

Would you agree that during Jesus' ministry on earth: Should not the Pharisees be called the Saints of Jesus' time, the servants of God?

Casey

Saints? The ones Jesus called "white-washed sepulchres full of dead men's bones? The kind who goes into the temple to pray but leaves it unjustified? (See the story of the publican & the Pharisee.)

Gerry

[CaseyButler]

Saints? The ones Jesus called "white-washed sepulchres full of dead men's bones? The kind who goes into the temple to pray but leaves it unjustified? (See the story of the publican & the Pharisee.)

Gerry

Again, Jesus says in Revelation:

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten..." [KJV-Bible: Revelation 3:19]

To the Church of Laodicea His words are just as harsh as to the Pharisees - "I will spue thee out of my mouth", for example, and "thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."

Despite the hardness of heart they developed over centuries of Greek and Roman occupation, wasn't it the Pharisees and Sadducees that held the responsibility of magnifying God's Law?

Weren't the Pharisees, scribes, and priests basically upholding, teaching, and protecting God's Law so that it would survive the various empires that ruled over Israel? And during these times they were forced to modify doctrines and beliefs in order to conform to the requirements of these empires.

When we think about it, *before* Jesus laid down His life, making all of His followers saints and "kings and priests" of God's kingdom within us, in the context of Jesus' ministry isn't it true that nobody else could be called the "servants of the God of Israel" - the Saints - the "Keepers of the Law"?

Regarding how Christians should view the Pharisees, scribes, and priests who refused to accept Jesus' teachings, Paul expounded considerably in Romans Chapter 11. An excerpt:

"As concerning the gospel, (they are) enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, (they are) beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God (are) without repentance.

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable (are) his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" [KJV-Bible: Romans 11:28-33]

Those who reject Jesus, then, such as the Pharisees and Sadducees, scribes and priests, are to be saved by the mercy and understanding of Christians.

As Paul points out, people like the Pharisees "(they are) beloved for the fathers' sakes."

Again, Paul's words: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Does anyone have any ideas on how God might have "concluded" the Pharisees in unbelief, or why that might have been necessary?

Casey

[Robert]

Those who reject Jesus, then, such as the Pharisees and Sadducees, scribes and priests, are to be saved by the mercy and understanding of Christians.

That would be salvation by and through Christians instead of Jesus Christ. That idea doesn't fly!

Apparently you believe in universalism. Aren't you the guy who teaches that even Satan will be saved?

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

Despite the hardness of heart they developed over centuries of Greek and Roman occupation, wasn't it the Pharisees and Sadducees that held the responsibility of magnifying God's Law?

They thought they were magnifying the law. They ended up burrying the law in a mass of human opinions & man-made traditions, which Jesus spent so much of His time on earth trying to undo. I understand that even today, Jews would rather put the Talmud & the Mishna above the Torah.

Gerry

[CaseyButler]

That would be salvation by and through Christians instead of Jesus Christ. That idea doesn't fly!

[CaseyButler]

They thought they were magnifying the law. They ended up burrying the law in a mass of human opinions & man-made traditions, which Jesus spent so much of His time on earth trying to undo. I understand that even today, Jews would rather put the Talmud & the Mishna above the Torah.

It's true. And look at our own church, see how many books and scholarly opinions - even over and above Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy - have been promulgated as interpreting God's Word better than the Holy Spirit can interpret it for each of us as we seek God in the Bible through prayer to Him for understanding.

You are right, and that brings me to the point I'm trying to make. The Pharisees and scribes - who copied it faithfully from generation to generation, also carried down the law from Moses, the scriptures. Without these people and their dedication to God as they believed Him to be, the scriptures would have been lost.

The Pharisees and scribes of Jesus time believed what their fathers taught them. They kept the law in all its detail as they were allowed by the Romans.

As Moses commanded, they stoned adulteresses, blasphemers, and errant teenagers. They formed councils that judged Jews and cast them out of the synagogues if warranted by the law.

Below are the first three commandments given by God on Sinai:

1. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

2. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness (of any thing) that (is) in heaven above, or that (is) in the earth beneath, or that (is) in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God (am) a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth (generation) of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3. "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." [KJV-Bible: Exodus 20:3-7]

Considering these commandments and the Pharisees' obligation from Moses to both teach them and enforce them...

How could it be possible for them to accept Jesus as the "Son of God", a Man whom the people worshipped, a Man who claimed to be "One with God"?

They were the authorities, the interpreters of God's Word, the enforcers of morality and administrators of the Jewish theocracy under Roman jurisdiction.

When we think about it, how many of us, trained in much the same way regarding the Ten Commandments, warned continuously by our authorities of the dangers of "false Messiahs" that are bound to appear...

How many of us, in their position, would have responded to Jesus words and the claims of His followers differently from the Pharisees?

Casey

[Robert]

How could it be possible for them to accept Jesus as the "Son of God", a Man whom the people worshipped, a Man who claimed to be "One with God"?

The greatest evidence God gave the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah was the resurrection. He even was willing to forgive them for crucifying his Son. When the soldiers told the Jewish leaders, “This must be the Messiah for He is resurrected,” the Jewish leaders had two choices: to admit that they were wrong and that they had crucified the Son of God and humble themselves, or cover up.

And you know what they did. And so when they stoned Stephen, they were giving the outward evidence of the deliberate, willful rejection of the Messiah. And God said, “I leave your house desolate.” And it was only a few years later that Jerusalem was ruined, was brought to the ground. And to this day they are crying to God “Please restore our temple.”

[CaseyButler]

The greatest evidence God gave the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah was the resurrection. He even was willing to forgive them for crucifying his Son. When the soldiers told the Jewish leaders, “This must be the Messiah for He is resurrected,” the Jewish leaders had two choices: to admit that they were wrong and that they had crucified the Son of God and humble themselves, or cover up.

And you know what they did. And so when they stoned Stephen, they were giving the outward evidence of the deliberate, willful rejection of the Messiah. And God said, “I leave your house desolate.” And it was only a few years later that Jerusalem was ruined, was brought to the ground. And to this day they are crying to God “Please restore our temple.”

I don't think you mean that, Robert. Please reconsider.

Mrs. White wrote:

"No truth is more clearly taught in the Bible than that God by His Holy Spirit especially directs His servants on earth in the great movements for the carrying forward of the work of salvation. Men are instruments in the hand of God, employed by Him to accomplish His purposes of grace and mercy. Each has his part to act; to each is granted a measure of light, adapted to the necessities of his time, and sufficient to enable him to perform the work which God has given him to do. But no man, however honored of Heaven, has ever attained to a full understanding of the great plan of redemption, or even to a perfect appreciation of the divine purpose in the work for his own time. Men do not fully understand what God would accomplish by the work which He gives them to do; they do not comprehend, in all its bearings, the message which they utter in His name... {GC 343.2}

"...Even the prophets who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained." {GC 344.1}

So even Mrs. White and our pioneers only understood as much as God intended them to understand in order to enlighten mankind during the period in which they lived.

In Great Controversy Mrs. White wrote about Martin Luther as follows:

"Foremost among those who were called to lead the church from the darkness of popery into the light of a purer faith, stood Martin Luther. Zealous, ardent, and devoted, knowing no fear but the fear of God, and acknowledging no foundation for religious faith but the Holy Scriptures, Luther was the man for his time; through him God accomplished a great work for the reformation of the church and the enlightenment of the world." {GC 120.1}

Yet, it was Martin Luther who wrote the book from which the following snippet has been taken, the book entitled "On The Jews And Their Lies":

"...Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

"First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now, but that we have now given them their due reward.

"Second, that all their books their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible, be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted. For they use all of these books to blaspheme the Son of God, that is, God the Father himself, Creator of heaven and earth, as was said above; and they will never use them differently.

"Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country. They may do this in their own country or wherever they can without our being obliged to hear it or know it. The reason for this prohibition is that their praise, thanks, prayer, and doctrine are sheer blasphemy, cursing, and idolatry, because their heart and mouth call God the Father Hebel Vorik as they call his Son, our Lord Jesus, this. For as they name and honor the Son, thus they also name and honor the Father. It does not help them to use many fine words and to make much ado about the name of God. For we read, "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" [Exod. 20:7]. Just as little did it avail their ancestors at the time of the kings of Israel that they bore God’s name, yet called him Baal.

"Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it, because their blasphemous and accursed mouth and heart call God’s Son Hebel Vorik, and thus also call his Father that. He cannot and will not interpret this otherwise, just as we Christians too cannot interpret it otherwise, we who believe that however the Son is named and honored thus also the Father is named and honored. Therefore we must not consider the mouth of the Jews as worthy of uttering the name of God within our hearing..." etc...

The full book is available here: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/luther1543new.html

These are the words of Martin Luther used by Adolph Hitler to propagate support for the holocaust among German Christians, including Seventh-Day Adventists.

Mrs. White probably didn't even know about this book - Luther died a few days after completing it.

But the doctrine of the "rejection of the Jews" was adopted by SDA's from the reformer Luther, who got it from the Roman Catholic Church, who got it from people like Origen and other Gentiles angry at the stubborness of the Jews and their insistence on not accepting Jesus as Messiah, but remaining followers of Judaism.

But let's look at what the scripture has to say in light of what we know today, that our pioneers didn't - because poor doctrine adopted from previous reform movements is proven poor by the passage of time, and as experience is gained as God sheds light on our errors - even the well-meaning ones...

(Continued in next message...)

[CaseyButler]

(Continued...)

It is a long-held doctrine of our church, but does the doctrine of God's "rejection" of the Jews stand up scripturally in light of what we've witnessed during the last century?

Please consider the following:

1. The Covenant of Promise of the Messiah: ""Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I (am) God, and (there is) none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth (in) righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear... In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 45:22-23,25]

The rejection doctrine contradicts the Covenant of Promise. Surely only people like us, influenced by the great doubter, would doubt the power of God to fulfil this covenant. But by doing so do we not besmirch the Character and question the power of our God who made the covenant? God is True. God keeps His Word. God's covenants are everlasting.

2. The statement that God's Mercy endures forever appears 42 times in the Bible, for example: "O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever." [KJV-Bible: Psalms 136:26]

The doctrine of rejection contradicts God's most valued Character Trait here.

3. To the disciples Jesus said: "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." [KJV-Bible: John 10:17-18]

The doctrine of rejection contradicts Jesus, who specifically commanded His followers not to blame anyone for His crucifixion. Truly, in His day, perhaps even ours, no matter to what people He had witnessed the Truth of God's Character to, their rulers would have put Him to death as a dangerous influence on the people.

4. From the cross Jesus said: "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [KJV-Bible: Luke 23:34]

The doctrine of rejection contradicts Jesus' request here.

5. Romans Chapter 11.

This chapter clearly explains that the Jews, as the natural branches, are saved by the election of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and God whose covenant with Abraham will not be broken by the manufactured hatred of fallable scholars and theologians.

6. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well: "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." [KJV-Bible: John 4:22]

The Jews are not rejected, rather salvation is of them, of their history with God and their work to make His name known. Promised to Abraham by God.

These are just a few of the verses from the Word of God for which millions of Jews have sacrificed their lives to protect in order that we can have it available today.

Let me comment on what you posted:

Quote:

The greatest evidence God gave the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah was the resurrection. He even was willing to forgive them for crucifying his Son. When the soldiers told the Jewish leaders, “This must be the Messiah for He is resurrected,” the Jewish leaders had two choices: to admit that they were wrong and that they had crucified the Son of God and humble themselves, or cover up.

Please note: The Jewish rulers still had no evidence of the resurrection. The people with the evidence were the Roman soldiers who witnessed the appearance of the angel.

Thus it seems that God would have more likely rejected Rome because of the actions of these eyewitness soldiers in taking a bribe, than to reject the entire Jewish nation because of the actions of a few rulers who offered the bribe.

Reject forever the nation of His chosen for errors of a few?

Quote:

And so when they stoned Stephen, they were giving the outward evidence of the deliberate, willful rejection of the Messiah.

Again, how many stoned Stephen, and wasn't Stephen himself a Hellenistic Jew?

As he died, Stephen cried: "...Lord, lay not this sin to their charge..." [KJV-Bible: Acts 7:60]

Do you know that God rejected that plea? Most Christians down the centuries have rejected that plea, as they have rejected the plea of Jesus from the cross, but if God rejected that plea He would have broken His Covenant of Promise to the Jews.

And the Apostles had been commanded by Jesus to go only to the lost sheep of Israel. But their anger at the Jews because of Stephen caused them to go to the Gentiles... Yet it was not until Peter received the vision of the sheet and unclean animals that God gave permission to go to the Gentiles.

Peter's conclusion after the vision was "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" [KJV-Bible: Acts 10:34]

If God is no respecter of persons, then the vision did not represent the rejection of the Jews, rather it represented inclusion of the Gentiles in the Covenant of Promise.

Did the Apostles stop evangilizing among the Jews because they were rejected? No.

Quote:

And God said, “I leave your house desolate.” And it was only a few years later that Jerusalem was ruined, was brought to the ground.

Question: Was the destruction of Jerusalem the wrath of God at work, or the wrath of the Roman Empire because the Zealots were attempting to establish the Kingdom of God in Israel once more?

If the wrath of the Roman Empire can be called the Wrath of God, what does that tell us about the Wrath of God throughout the Bible?

Casey

[Robert]

So everyone will be saved? The Bible doesn't teach this.

[CaseyButler]

So everyone will be saved? The Bible doesn't teach this.

Those verses are not imaginary. The Covenant of Promise is not imaginary, it is not subject to the whims of Satan.

It is why Jesus laid down His Life, to save everybody, that nothing which the Father put in His hands should be lost.

It's exactly what the Bible teaches. It's what Mrs. White taught.

Paul tells us God chose "the foolishness of preaching" to spread the Gospel, because the simple Wisdom of God didn't work.

When preached to, you are supposed to be motivated to spread the Gospel and God's Love by the horror you feel imagining any one of God's creations being lost...

Your not supposed to end up comfortable with a horrible death for others as long as you yourself are saved!

Tell me Robert, since it says plainly in Isaiah, and Jesus plainly said it too, that all the world will be saved and learn righteousness from God...

Who is *not* in God's Book of Life?

I hope to hear joy from you that the Bible says God will wait us out until we accept His Mercy and Love for those brothers and sisters we have judged unworthy and cast out.

The Character of God vindicated before mankind...

It is Good News... It is Wonderful News that only Satan would find depressing, I think! Oh if we circumcise our hearts that the world has made so hard today, we will wave palm branches rather than flags and dollar bills... :-)

Casey

[Robert]

Matt 25:41 “Then he [the King - the Son of Man] will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

[Robert]

It is why Jesus laid down His Life, to save everybody, that nothing which the Father put in His hands should be lost.

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one [Adam], death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

1] We stand condemned because all of us share Adam's fallen life.

2] Christ, by assuming this shared life, reversed our situation "in Adam" and therefore has legally set us free from the curse in the life of His holy history. Hence "all men" are legally justified

3] However, as verse 17 points out, this justification MUST be received by faith. Hence "justification by faith"!

Now read the following:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

While we were sinners...while we were dead in sin, Christ saved ALL of us by making us alive together in Him. Further more He took to heaven this shared, glorified humanity to present us before the Father and His Holy law. Hence Christ has saved the whole world through His mercy and grace! This much you have right, but now "the rest of the story":

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

The world...the human race... stands perfect "in Christ", but individually we must accept His justification of us by faith. No faith, you are rejecting your only means from deliverance from under God's law that justly condemns you.

Rob

[CaseyButler]

Robert, are you saying you are not joyful that God has sworn by Himself to save all of mankind, and you are not joyful that Jesus shed His blood in order that all the world might be saved?

And it's our job to tell people this, to save them from the fear of death, and the fear of a tyrant God whose Law was enforced by people like the Pharisees.

It is not our job to judge them.

Arguing for death, burning, and eternal damnation? Accusing God of creating people in order to burn them up at the end, even though He knew perfectly well what they would do? Wouldn't that be sadistic behavior if any of us did the same?

I assure you, I have faith in God's power, His Goodness, His sworn Promise to save all the earth.

And you are questioning my faith, that power, that Goodness, that Promise to all mankind?

Why?

I have heard before the attempts of people to turn "Justification by faith" into an oppressive doctrine of Law on its own. Many then use it to persecute and silence people just as the Pharisees used the Ten Commandments to do the same.

True Faith in God's Love and His Everlasting Mercy toward His creations cannot be turned into a law of itself that people can use to condemn others. Again, why? Where is the Love?

Jesus said, "To God all live."

Faith in a God of death rather than life is of Satan, IMO.

Mrs. White wrote:

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view." - Selected Messages, page 355.

"Behold, say the Scripture, 'the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.' Isa. 60:2. It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy and truth... (Isa. 40:9, 10 then quoted) Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, 'Behold your God.' The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love." - COL 415.

The Life of Jesus, His refusal to harm one hair on His executioners' heads, is an eternal testimony to God's Real Character that no man can wipe out.

We need to open our hearts to the example of Jesus' Life, His is the only Life that will lead us to the True Character of God.

"For our God is a Consuming Fire"... Indeed He is a Lake of Fire in which Jesus will baptize by Fire all who are fearful and unbelieving when He comes.

Who else but God can destroy death and hell, which will also be cast into this Lake of Fire?

Is God Good?

Casey

[Gerr]

Robert, are you saying you are not joyful that God has sworn by Himself to save all of mankind, and you are not joyful that Jesus shed His blood in order that all the world might be saved?

I am not Robert, but I will give an answer to your question. NOOOOOOOOOO, I would not be joyful if God saved believers and confirmed rebels alike. I would not want to be in such a place. We are already in one, and it's a cesspool of a mess. What would be the point of Jesus hanging on the Cross if rebels will be saved any way?

If God took in saints & rebels alike, then your God is neither loving, just, nor righteous. Think about it.

Gerry

[CaseyButler]

I am not Robert, but I will give an answer to your question. NOOOOOOOOOO, I would not be joyful if God saved believers and confirmed rebels alike. I would not want to be in such a place. We are already in one, and it's a cesspool of a mess. What would be the point of Jesus hanging on the Cross if rebels will be saved any way?

If God took in saints & rebels alike, then your God is neither loving, just, nor righteous. Think about it.

Let's be clear on one thing at least that Jesus Christ said:

Jesus came to save the "rebels", He did not come for the righteous. Three times He stated this.

He taught them and healed them, all comers, no questions asked.

To the He said, "Let he is without sin cast the first stone".

He commanded that we love our enemies, as God does.

That is the love of God that men are incapable of expressing by themselves.

And relax: The Bible tells us all will be changed, both saints and "rebels". "Every knee will bow, every tongue shall swear" by God's Righteousness.

So you will be relieved to know that God being allowed to save everything He has created will mean all will also live in righteousness under God... Sharing the Full Measure of His Spirit, as Jesus does today as the firstfruits.

Are you telling me you have reached perfection yourself? That you are no "rebel"?

The Bible says differently, claiming that all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

Oh, please hear God. Read the Bible with Jesus Life' in mind, and seek God in prayer, seek Him as a God that loves and keeps His Word.

Boy, does God respond when you do that!! With words and dreams, enlarging His Holy Spirit within you, answering prayer for knowledge... It's wonderful.

He is Everything we have always said He is, but He is that to EVERYONE he has created, not just us.

Casey

[Robert]

Actually, Casey, you are creating a god who overrides the human will. Such a god is not my God, but the god of this world. God will not force anyone to accept Him. Such an idea is blasphemous!

Also, God can't take those to heaven who lives according to flesh. The mind (character) must be in harmony with God's agape love because it is the one thing that we will take to heaven. If God permitted the unregenerate mind into heaven, well, we would have the Lucifer thing again and some other world or worlds would be plummeted into darkness and despair.

Rob

[CaseyButler]

Actually, Casey, you are creating a god who overrides the human will. Such a god is not my God, but the god of this world. God will not force anyone to accept Him. Such an idea is blasphemous!

[Robert]

Nobody will be forced, everyone will volunteer.

2 Thess 1:7... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

No, some will be lost. Hence they will not change their mind-set - they will not voluntarily accept God and His love.

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

Let's move on to another subject, since you have this thing against the Jews and the Pharisees...

Luke 20:45 And while all the people were listening, He [Jesus] said to the disciples, 46 “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, 47 who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation.”

[Robert]

Is this the "Robert" doctrine? :-)

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord....

[Gerr]

Quote:

Let's be clear on one thing at least that Jesus Christ said:

Jesus came to save the "rebels", He did not come for the righteous. Three times He stated this.

He taught them and healed them, all comers, no questions asked.

To the He said, "Let he is without sin cast the first stone".

He commanded that we love our enemies, as God does.

That is the love of God that men are incapable of expressing by themselves.

And Jesus was also very clear when He said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God......You must be born again.....For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting live....He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..." Jn 3:3,7,16,18 NKJ.

Quote:

And relax: The Bible tells us all will be changed, both saints and "rebels". "Every knee will bow, every tongue shall swear" by God's Righteousness.

Saints & rebels changed? I don't know what book you are reading, my friend, but when Jesus comes, many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to SHAME & everlasting CONTEMPT." Dan 12:2 NKJ

Gerry