The state of the Pharisees

[Ted Oplinger]

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Have you read Jesus' teachings concerning the Will of our Father?

Read Matthew chapters 5 thru 7 for example.

Are the commandments and teachings contained in the Sermon on the Mount kept by anyone at all in our church today?

Hmmm...a change in the subject at hand. No matter.

Yes, Casey, I have read those chapters - a great many times. They go hand-in-hand with chapters 10-13 of the Gospel of Luke and chapters 5-12 of the Gospel of John. Not everything Jesus spoke of at the Sermon of the Mount was spoken solely there.

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The doctrine of "justification by faith", rather than faith and works, contradicts God's Law, and was invented by theologians long after the Law and Testimony were sealed.

Does that doctrine not encourage the practice of lawlessness before God? Is it not responsible for the situation among Christianity today, where Christians are supporting, even encouraging war in order to fulfill men's errant interpretation of prophecies?

While I did not refer to the doctrine of justification by faith specifically in name, and because you seem to have a great degree of difficulty in staying on subject, I will answer this specifically.

The doctrine of justification by faith does not contradict God's Law. I find it both amusing and sad that in your next reply post to me, you go to great lengths about quoting Scripture to reach carnal men, yet here you flatly deny what Paul specifically states:

Romans 3:26 - 31

26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Casey, this is one of the most easily referenced sections of the Bible. It boggles me that you could so easily quote from that chapter, and yet indicate how far from the mark you miss the point.

It most certainly was not "invented by theologians long after the Law and Testimony were sealed"; indeed, Christ Jesus Himself taught in the very chapters I provided alongside your own offering, that this was something the Jews should have been practicing from the beginning, because He gave it in the Law and the Testimony!

Hence, I can state your comment that the doctrine of justification by faith is completely false.

Here is the honest answers you want:

The true doctrine of justification by faith, I have found by experience, does exactly what Paul states here: it places the believer upon a solid ground of obedience to the Laws of the Living God, and encourages the believer into moving forward in Christian maturity. One finds this doctrine when one studies what Christ calls justification, and what Christ declares is faith.

Yes, there are many counterfeits to the real. These do not follow Christ's demonstrations and teachings as to what constitutes justification and faith are. Hence, these counterfeits are no more than Protestant forms of the Catholic indulges - licenses to to whatever one wants and call it the will of God. The earliest reclamation of this doctrine was by the Reformers, and even the most rudimentary understanding of it stands in complete and stark contrast to the Roman Catholic doctrine of tradition+works+faith, necessarily in that order.

Casey, you're coming on as one who puts on an oh-so pious front, but in reality, does nothing but muddle the waters. I really don't think you were "directed" here to do any major work for God in saving these "heretical and unbeleiving" SDA's who frequent this board. If anything, if you were indeed "directed here" by God, it would be to learn, not to teach.

You came on with strong example and a couple of good questions, then began a rambling with no real point to make concerning the questions you asked. That you would indeed make straw arguments in your next reply to my posting, designed to illustrate a ridiculous position and subsequently knock it down, tells me volumes about your presence here.

Alas, to the next post...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Why do you lie about God's Will and Christ's Will to save the entire earth?

God has (past tense) saved "the world" - the human race - "all men" - in Jesus Christ. The deed is done! Jesus has done it all. The gift is complete, but like any gift God cannot and will not force it on His children.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death through sin [sin causes death], and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

"All sinned"? Where, individually or "in Adam"? Answer: "In Adam"! No, this isn't original sin because that heresy teaches that we are guilty of Adam's sin. Instead we stand condemned because we share his life - a life under the curse.

13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law [i.e., legally it hadn't been posted at Sinai and therefore it couldn't legally condemn anyone]. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Even though sin hadn't been legally exposed through the giving of the law, everyone from Adam until Moses was dying! Why? Again, because all of them shared Adam's fallen life. This teaching is called Biblical solidarity.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died [i.e., "the many" refers to the human race], much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many [the human race].

The gift is unlike the transgression because what we have from Adam, condemnation, is our by native right - it is ours by birth. However, as we will soon see, what we have "in Christ" is a gift that we must receive by faith.

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation [to all men], but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Again, Adam's sinned condemned the human race because we share in his life, but individually speaking "the free gift" arose from many transgression resulting in justification. You see God has justified the human race in Jesus Christ. How? Jesus, by assuming the same self-life that we share with Adam, obeyed God's law in every detail while in it. Hence He has legally justified all men in His doing and dying.

17 For if by the transgression of the one [Adam], death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

What we have "in Adam" (death and condemnation) is ours by birth. What we have "in Christ" must be accepted individually! Now Paul summarizes:

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,

even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men.

"In Adam" we have death automatically. "In Christ" we have been justified to life. We must accept this truth by faith.

Rob

[Robert]

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law....31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

You are reading this incorrectly. Paul, in unquestionable language, tells us we are justified before God "in Jesus Christ" apart from our goodness - our law keeping. Verse 31 must be understood in the framework of this chapter. What Paul is asking is does faith in Jesus Christ (justification received by faith) nullify the demands of God's law? His answer? No way, our faith establishes the law because "in Christ" our life was made obedient to God's law in every detail. To assume that it means that we "establish the law" (as in keeping it in every detail) is a crock! No one has ever kept the law as Christ. He never sinned by even a thought. He lived a selfless life...a life free from all self-seeking even to the point of death. Here we aren't measuring up. So Casey (of whom I have officially listed as a legalist) is absolutely confused when he down plays JBF.

[Ted Oplinger]

And fopr the rest of your posting...

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I am using scripture as Paul, Peter, John, Jude, James, and every other carnal man uses scripture to communicate with other carnal men. Because you refuse to investigate and resolve the Spiritual nature of their words.

I have refused to investigate and resolve the Spiritual nature of the Word of the Living God as spoken through these men? That's quite an accusation to make, seeing that you neither know me, nor the understandings I hold concerning the Word of the Living God.

Likewise, to state that these men were nothing more than carnal Johnny-come-lately's, begs the issue of defining "carnal" in the light of what God had taught Paul to teach in Romans 8.

You've made a great deal of presumptions and assumptions here, both of myself and even of Biblical writers. What was you said in your first reply to me...that when we comdemn others, we are only comdemning ourselves? It seems you cannot go from post to post without breaking your own thoughts on the matter, let alone the Word of the Living God...

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What, have you already been changed, Ted? Has God put on you the Immortal Spirit already?

Yes, Casey, I was changed - 21 years ago. And as the Word of the Living God says, the mantle of the Immortal Spirit is a must-have to have hope for the Christian walk...therefore, because I see the promise of the Holy Spirit to all who believe, then I must answer yes to that.

Romans 8:9 "9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

If we do not have the Spirit, we don't belong to Christ. The corollary to that, Casey, is that having the the Spirit, I know I belong to Christ.

1 Cor 2:10-13

"10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words."

Next upon that, Casey, I do understand the spiritual nature of the Word, not because of any great thing I am, but because the Spirit gladly teaches me those things I need to understand on this side of the coming of Christ.

2 Cor 1:21, 22

"21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,

22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."

I think this one is pretty clear, Casey: the "Mantle of the Holy Spirit" is not some Divine designation conferred upon a person for some grand work for God, but truthfully is an annointing that every child of Christ has, which is the pledge to us given by God that He is indeed true to his Word. Every Christian has it, and its power is manifest in the gifts and ministries given specifically to individuals by the Holy Spirit.

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Can you walk on water?

If Christ asked me to, the answer would be yes. Anything less would be unbelief.

So much for your straw effort to define a ridiculous event, then knock it down. What was it Paul wrote in Philippians 4:13? "I can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens me?"

And I could indeed put "walking on the water" in this broad category of "ALL THINGS".

I sense here a clear lack of understanding of just how powerful the Divine Word of God is, as well as its play and manifestation within the scope of the human faith experience.

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That would be unscriptural, and it would put your life in danger as it put Jesus' life in danger.

How little you seem to understand about this. Was Peter's walking on the water unScriptural, Casey? Hardly! Peter took Christ's words seriously and, with eyes fixed upon Jesus, proceeded to do just that.

It is only when Peter looked away, and allowed the ferocity of the storm to eclipse his faith and looking to Christ, did he sink.

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Why are you trying to trap me and mischaracterize what I say?

I don't need to do this, Casey, because you've already demonstrated a great aptitude for doing this to yourself already.

That statement of yours alone is signature of those who are already trapped in what they say, and cannot give good reason for their faith. Your lack of provision of adequate and contextual Scripture on the subject matters you've brought up is what trapped you.

The provision of contextual Scripture to refute your statements is in no way mischaracterizing what you say, but rather putting what you've said in contrast to the Light of the Living God's Word.

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Why do you lie about God's Will and Christ's Will to save the entire earth?

Another personal attack, and another reference that you really know nothing about what the term "God's Will" constitutes, and at the same time a clear represntation of the taking of Scripture way out of context from what God has said there, as well as a complete and willful shunning of what the Living God has stated in His Word about the human race and the resolution of the sin issue.

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You can't claim the Bible as your authority. Neither the Spiritual metaphor and symbolism of the prophets, nor of Jesus, nor of the Apostles contradict God's Covenant of Promise.

I do believe enough Biblical authority has been presented, by myself and others, to soundly refute your original posit. That you wish to ignore that authority in favor of your own pet teachings and beliefs is what has become apparent here.

There is not a soul on earth that can tell me I cannot claim the Bible as my authority, and more so if I should disagree with another's postulations and beliefs due to mine own biblical investigations and studies. Here, Casey, you crossed a line that should not be crossed.

What has transpired here has been a difference of perspectives based upon how one has approached their studies of Scriptures - initial premises, word definings, etc. That you should summarily tell me or anyone else we cannot claim Scriptural authority is outright bogus, Casey, because the Word of God is authority in and of itself, coming from the throne of the Living God Himself.

By that authority, I and others have presented solid refuting of your understandings and posits, as well as presented by the same authority and Light presented to you contextual understanding.

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All of that metaphor is Spiritual language definable from the text itself. From destruction to hell to fire to death.

Such as...? <put alternate view point here, with authoritative Scriptural references...>

It appears that you have clearly ignored this as well. That what I have contextually written is different from your own understandings should be a clue that your own ideas aren't the "pronouncements from God" you wish us to regard them.

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Then by whose authority do you contradict the plainly Sworn Testimony of God the Savior of all the earth?

Ah, yes...the same question the Pharisees of old asked Jesus, who contradicted most every precious teaching of the Pharisees they regarded as "the Sworn Testimony of God".

Interesting you propose such a role here, Casey...asking a child of God the same question my Lord and Redeemer was asked, and from pretty much the same perspective.

The words of Christ are indeed true - as they treated the Teacher, so shall the student be treated.

Let me answer in like manner as did Jesus:

Answer me these things, and I'll tell you by authority I disagree with your posits:

These "carnal men" you stated (and to refresh your memory, here are your exact, explicit words: "I am using scripture as Paul, Peter, John, Jude, James, and every other carnal man uses scripture...") - by whose authority did they write their Biblical books included in the New Testament? God's, or man's?

These "carnal men" - by whose authority did they use quotations from the Old Testament in their writings...from God? or man?

Based upon the testimony of these men to those who would later read these words, by whose authority does a child in Christ today have to quote contextual passages according to God's providence and instruction...God's? or man's?

Answer these in truth, and you will have my answer as you have requested...even before you hit the "submit" button on your reply.

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God needs people of Love who remember His Mercy to them, and are still interested in His Words of Love in the Bible.

I think I was indeed correct...a misuse of the word love in reference to God's character. This I know, from the authority of God's Word, is a theological idol, and is not in harmony with the testimony of Christ about the Father (cf. John 14), the testimony of His Law (cf. Exodus 20:5), the Testimony of His Prophets (Ezekiel 18),nor in keeping with the fruit of Spirit (cf. Galatians 5).

What you've presented here is hardly doctrine of God, nor is it Sworn Testimony of God, for you have taken and skewed the words of God to fit you own beliefs. This neither Christ nor any of the faithful did.

My love for you is indeed Godly, and I would not post these things to needlessly hurt, yet you consistently turn away from plain testimony of the Word of the Living God. In time, it becomes obvious whether a man for whom Christ has died will listen or not. It is becoming apparent you will not listen, but only preach and accuse - just as any Pharisee of old would do.

It greatly appears that you are indeed treading close to the point where I must leave you alone, and leave you to the theological idols you apparently wish to cling to (Hosea 4:17)

In Christ Jesus,

[Ted Oplinger]

Robert,

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You are reading this incorrectly. Paul, in unquestionable language, tells us we are justified before God "in Jesus Christ" apart from our goodness - our law keeping.

Please don't make assumptions of how I am using the Scriptures nor reading them, Robert.

I know full well that this passage must be read in the context of chapter 5, same book, to get a better understanding of what Paul means.

Furthermore, it must also be tied to Christ's own declaration of what faith is in Matthew 8.

Anything less is either legal fiction or justification by works.

What I put there was enough to answer Casey's posits, and it should be understood as such.

[Robert]

I know full well that this passage must be read in the context of chapter 5, same book, to get a better understanding of what Paul means.

The immediate context is chapter 3.

Thank you,

Rob

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Why do you lie about God's Will and Christ's Will to save the entire earth?

God has (past tense) saved "the world" - the human race - "all men" - in Jesus Christ. The deed is done! Jesus has done it all. The gift is complete, but like any gift God cannot and will not force it on His children.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Casey, I decided to look into this thread.

You have asked if the Pharisees were the saints of Jesus time. Saints as in the Catholic tradition, maybe, but saints as used by the Bible, no.

Jesus told the disciples to do as they said, but not as they do. He also said, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

Here Jesus is referring to 2 types of righteousness. The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which was as Paul put it by works, "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:31-32

Then Jesus referred to the righteousness of the disciples (Theirs was to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees)which would be righteousness by faith. Righteousness by faith exceeds the righteousness that the scribes and Pharisees had. This is what He was telling them.

In this world of sin that we are in there are only two way to be justified. One is by faith and the other is by keeping the all law perfectly from birth. This is what the scribes and Pharisees were attempting to do. It is impossible and those who try this have fallen from grace.

Paul knew this well because he was a Pharisee. "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.Phi 3:4-7

Norman

[CaseyButler]

Hi Jeanne,

Are you trying to suggest that at the end of the world no one will be lost and no one will be burned in fire?

[CaseyButler]

Hi Casey, I decided to look into this thread.

Hi Norman, it's good to see you here.

As you can see, I woke up this morning to a lot of messages claiming that God is not as Jesus Christ witnessed Him to us by Jesus' Life lived among us. This, coincedently is also how the Pharisees felt - that God intended to kill all but them at the Last Day.

I have pointed out that this view does not pass the test of Light from God, because it contradicts both God's Law and His Testimony - including His sworn Testimony to the entire earth contained in the Covenant of Promise.

Now we know that Satan knows the Bible inside and out, better than any human being except Jesus. We know that Satan uses all kinds of devices and subtleties to mislead the minds of God's servants into error and rebellious condemnation of God's Character.

The entire Old Testament is witness to this fact. After all, the Pharisees simply believed in the Law of Moses, as ALL saints before Jesus came did.

Now I see you condemning not only the Pharisees, but all people on earth before the Pharisees, including Moses, as unworthy of eternal life through God's Mercy and Love.

I have a proposal for you, Robert, David, Ted, and any others who wish to post contrary to the test of doctrinal Light from God:

In all fairness, please form a "council" and select a spokesperson to question me or to address your concerns to me.

I freely confess that I am human, and a sinner.

And I am facing a "flood" of messages to answer from people who are questioning my character, questioning my message from God, and questioning my authority as being sent from God.

I would appreciate it greatly, and our discussion would be much more coherant, if you all could communicate with me through one spokesperson, prepare challenges from scripture and questions, send them to that person, and he or she could then compile them and post them to me in this thread.

Then I would post back to the spokesperson once, rather than need to post basically much the same information to five or six people or more.

God bless all, the Kingdom of God is night unto us! :-)

Casey

[Robert]

"And so all Israel shall be saved"

Who are Israel?

Romans 9:6 "It is not as though God’s word had failed."

What does Paul have in mind? "All Israel will be saved"! Now has God broken His promise? No! Read:

"For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Romans 4:13 The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void....16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law [the Jews] but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham [the Gentiles]. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”

Gal 3:29 "...if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Casey,

You said,

Quote:

Now I see you condemning not only the Pharisees, but all people on earth before the Pharisees, including Moses, as unworthy of eternal life through God's Mercy and Love.

Casey, you are either not reading my posts or you are incapable of understanding spiritual matters.

Quote:

I would appreciate it greatly, and our discussion would be much more coherant, if you all could communicate with me through one spokesperson

Casey, that's not going to happen. I asked you before if we could shorten our replies, do you see now why it's a wise idea?

Put out only what you can handle and it will be better for you.

Norman

[David Koot]

I have a proposal for you, Robert, David, Ted, and any others who wish to post contrary to the test of doctrinal Light from God:

In all fairness, please form a "council" and select a spokesperson to question me or to address your concerns to me.

I freely confess that I am human, and a sinner.

And I am facing a "flood" of messages to answer from people who are questioning my character, questioning my message from God, and questioning my authority as being sent from God.

My dear fellow:

As I have read some of the things you have posted, and some of the claims you have made, I have been reminded of words spoken by Cordell Hull after he read the Declaration of War of the Empire of Japan against this country. I will borrow a few words, and paraphrase the rest: "In fifty years of public service, I have never seen a document more filled with" the most astounding claims and pronouncements. Summing up your position, you have quite literally claimed that your 'revelation' trumps the Bible!!! That the Bible is needed for those who are carnal, but that you speak by direct authority of God the Father and Jesus Christ. I will venture to describe that position as blasphemous.

You have also done to us, the very thing which you seem to be complaining about--questioning one's character, one's motives, telling some of us that we are unloving, that we are carnal, and so forth.

And now, you would have us appoint a spokesman to inquire of you? I wot not!

But I personally see no point in actively participating in this discussion. I believe in the Bible as the ultimate authority, and that any purported messages from God must be tested according to Scripture. I think it quite unsafe to rely on what is claimed to be God speaking to a person, because we all are sinners, and so often confuse truth with error. You have acknowledge that you are a sinner. Well and good. Then, recognize that as a sinner, you, too, may be prone to misinterpreting 'voices' and impressions. But, so long as you claim supremacy over Scripture, and the Divine authority of thought inspiration--if not verbal inspiration, then what is to be accomplished by continuing to dialogue. We simply are not on the same page.

Cordially, Dave

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: Casey

I would appreciate it greatly, and our discussion would be much more coherant, if you all could communicate with me through one spokesperson

Casey, that's not going to happen. I asked you before if we could shorten our replies, do you see now why it's a wise idea?

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

As you can see, I woke up this morning to a lot of messages claiming that God is not as Jesus Christ witnessed Him to us by Jesus' Life lived among us. This, coincedently is also how the Pharisees felt - that God intended to kill all but them at the Last Day.

Casey, Casey, Casey!

Do tell where I said God is not as Christ witnessed Him to be...

I do remember posting quite a bit that Christ's testimony and witness of His Father's character contradicts your testimony.

Are you going to tell me now that Christ did not witness of God as you thought He should have???

Quote:

I have pointed out that this view does not pass the test of Light from God, because it contradicts both God's Law and His Testimony - including His sworn Testimony to the entire earth contained in the Covenant of Promise.

Far from it, Casey. But it has been pointed out and demonstrated that your perspective of this matter has contradicted God's Law, Christ's Testimony, the fruit of the Spirit, and the Testimony of the Prophets, simply because you have dared to lift up your "revelations" as superior to Scriptural authority.

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Now we know that Satan knows the Bible inside and out, better than any human being except Jesus. We know that Satan uses all kinds of devices and subtleties to mislead the minds of God's servants into error and rebellious condemnation of God's Character.

Oh, so now everyone who disagrees with your positions on matters of biblical instruction are followers of Satan. You are indeed showing yourself to be so wedded to fancies of the flesh.

Well, My Lord and Redeemer was called Satan himself, casting out demons by the power of beelzebub...by the Pharisees.

Get a clue, Casey: the further you continue that kind of diatribe, the further you erode your credibility as any kind of "messenger" from God. Simply put, Casey, your message has been destroyed by your own elitism. Such is the result for every message coming from the spirit of man, rather than the Spirit of God; your message doesn't pass the Scriptural muster.

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Now I see you condemning not only the Pharisees, but all people on earth before the Pharisees, including Moses, as unworthy of eternal life through God's Mercy and Love.

Sorry, Casey. Again, you make straw extrapolations where nothing was said. No one here condemned Moses or the Old Testament saints as unworthy of God's love. Again, another statement without facts to back them up.

Quote:

I have a proposal for you, Robert, David, Ted, and any others who wish to post contrary to the test of doctrinal Light from God:

In all fairness, please form a "council" and select a spokesperson to question me or to address your concerns to me.

What, a bit of information overload there, my friend? Posting contrary to what....your personal perspectives and pet theories? Oh, yes...you did sweep aside Isaiah 8:20 as unnecessary for your own personal presentation, yet that is the Testimony of God through the Prophet Isaiah concerning the test of doctrinal light!

One cannot have it both ways, Casey. Either your message is subject to that test, or it's not. If so, why did you sweep this declaration from God through His prophet as if it had no bearing upon you?

You really are making far more of yourself that you really are.

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And I am facing a "flood" of messages to answer from people who are questioning my character, questioning my message from God, and questioning my authority as being sent from God.

Casey, PLEASE!!

Do you want some cheese to go with that whine?

Perhaps you should look upon your own usage of words, your own condescensions, your own elite attitude. Yes, we questioned your message, and got back nothing but ramblings. We asked for consistency with the Holy Writ of God. You replied your message was above such need.

You question people's characters here, and wonder why yours is in question?

These things, Casey, are indeed large red warning flags that neither the message...nor the messenger...is sent from God.

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I would appreciate it greatly, and our discussion would be much more coherant, if you all could communicate with me through one spokesperson, prepare challenges from scripture and questions, send them to that person, and he or she could then compile them and post them to me in this thread.

I would appreciate a little coherence to your posits as well as your replies. I would appreciate a lack of accusings for every hint of mere questioning the veracity of whatever "message" you wish to post. I would appreciate a little more humility from one deeming himself to be so exalted.

But just you aren't going to get a council and a personally appointed spokesperson to deal with, so, too, am I not going to get what I desire to see from you.

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God bless all, the Kingdom of God is night unto us!

A little Freudian slip there, Casey?

My apologies if this post steps too hard on toes tonight - I don't suffer pity parties too well; and tonight, my love for Christ and man suffers this particular pity party not at all.

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Have you read Jesus' teachings concerning the Will of our Father?

Read Matthew chapters 5 thru 7 for example.

Are the commandments and teachings contained in the Sermon on the Mount kept by anyone at all in our church today?

Hmmm...a change in the subject at hand. No matter.

[CaseyButler]

But, so long as you claim supremacy over Scripture....

I am using only scripture, I do not claim supremacy over it.

Those who say "Thou shalt not kill" REALLY means "Thou shalt not murder" are claiming supremacy over scripture!

The Hebrew word "ratsach" used in the fifth commandment is also the word used for "killing" done by those whose victims suffered accidental deaths, those who could avoid the "Avenger" by retreating to one of the cities of refuge.

Jesus rips through the hypocricy of those who would pretend killing can exist anywhere near God by teaching:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 5:21-22]

God bless you, David... I apoligize for having offended you.

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

As you can see, I woke up this morning to a lot of messages claiming that God is not as Jesus Christ witnessed Him to us by Jesus' Life lived among us. This, coincedently is also how the Pharisees felt - that God intended to kill all but them at the Last Day.

Casey, Casey, Casey!

Do tell where I said God is not as Christ witnessed Him to be...

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Casey,

take my advice and shorten your post. condense them you'll find it easier.

I'll explain so you can understand. When you have a long post you will inevitably touch a nerve in the many who read. If you have a short post you may not have such a great reaction.

If you won't listen to reason then don't expect things to change.

Norman

[CaseyButler]

HI Casey,

take my advice and shorten your post. condense them you'll find it easier.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Quote:

Where did you get your ideas from?

Directly from my Father who sent me here, my Father to whom Jesus Christ led me by His Life and the Holy Spirit.

He also led me His "ideas" (they are not mine) throughout the Bible, revealed by His Spirit, though they are plainly written there.

And they have been plainly written there since the foundation of the world.

My Bible tells me your doctrine is neither from the Father of Light nor from the Spirit of truth. If it is the Spirit of truth that is speaking to you, He will not contradict the Words He Himself had inspired.

"The soul who sins shall die." Ez 18:20 NKJ

"The wages of sin is death." Rom 6:23

"For behold, the day is coming,

Burning like an oven,

And ALL the proud, yes, ALL who do wickedly will be stubble.

And the day which is coming shall burn them up,

Says the LORD of hosts,

That will leavem neither root nor branch." Mal 4:1 NKJ.

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Heb 3:18,19 NKJ.

"Come now, let us reason together,

Says the LORD,

Though your sins are like scarlet,

They shall be as white as snow,

Though they are red like crimson,

They shall be as wool.

If you are willing and obedient,

You shall eat the good of the land;

But IF you REFUSE & REBEL,

You shall be devoured by the sword;

For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." Isa 1:18-20 NKJ.

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn 5:12 NKJ.

"At that time Michael shall stand up,

The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;...

And at that time your people shall be delivered,

Everyone who is found written in the book.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,

Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:1,2 NKJ.

The claim that all will be saved in the end strikes at the very foundation of God's law, holiness, & righteousness. Law without consequences is chaos. And admission of both good & evil alike into His presence makes a mockery of His holiness & righteousness. Think about it.

Gerry

[Mark Shipowick]

Casey, do you and Graham Maxwell share the same views - God does not punish directly, sin is what causes pain and sin doen't need to be punished by God because it results in its own punishments and consequences and that Christ didn't die as our legal substitute? On the last point Maxwell may believe in a Christ's death as a substitute by example, but I think it's accurate to say that he teaches that God can forgive legally by simply forgiving, like a president who pardons a criminal. I've only scanned some of the thread. I have the impression that this is where the thread is headed but correct me if I'm off topic.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[color:red]"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; ... That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." Rom 9:8,9 NKJ.

"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,

The remnant will be saved." Rom 9:27 NKJ.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcion is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God." Rom 3:28,29 NKJ.

Gerry

[CaseyButler]

Jerry, keep thinking. These are very good verses.

Let's look at them, but first, please consider the following prophecy of the Messiah from Hosea:

"Therefore have I hewed (them) by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments (are as) the light (that) goeth forth.

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

"But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me." [KJV-Bible: Hosea 6:5-7]

God has not "hewed by the prophets" sinners, rather He has "hewed" His saints who read the prophets. Sinners don't read the Bible.

So we are "hewed", "slain" by the Words of His mouth, because His servants are blind.

My Bible tells me your doctrine is neither from the Father of Light nor from the Spirit of truth. If it is the Spirit of truth that is speaking to you, He will not contradict the Words He Himself had inspired.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Who have you encouraged many lately with this doctrine of a God that kills, Robert? You certainly aren't encouraging me. I'm reminded of the Pharisees who called Jesus of Satan.

But how can Satan point out Satan's deceptions, His mischaracterization and lies about God?

How could Satan teach love for God and all of His Creation?

It would be impossible.

Yet I am here to encourage you, and all others in our church.

Encourage? Yeah, encourage the wicked to persist in their wickedness because according to you they will be saved anyway. Discourage the believers because faith, perseverance/patience, obedience, and love won't amount to anything since both good & evil will in the end be all saved anyway!

Gerry