Examining God’s character – His attributes....

[Robert]

I often say that God is not above His own law. For example, how can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

With this in mind, let's look at some Bible qoutes that make God's character questionable:

Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Is 45:6 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

These are just a few....

Rob

[Nicodema]

That is why I think the revelation of God in Jesus Christ is so important. In Jesus we have a living manifestation of exactly Who God is and how He thinks, acts, treats others, operates, etc. The resurrection is equally important because without it, Jesus might just be another wise teacher or adept magickian or guru. Only by the resurrection is He established as The One who has power over death itself, something no wise man, guru, priest, teacher, or magickian has ever proven or demonstrated in all the history of the world.

For example, really advanced yogis can live indefinitely on prayer, sunlight, meditation, fresh air and water, but they cannot defy death itself which comes for them in the end. Awakened magickians can recall previous existences, but there is no proof of what is termed "the consciousness of the continuity of existence" in that, it could all be a delusion. (I recalled three of mine when I was on that path, and none of them were as human beings or even what we would consider life-forms -- go figure -- they all involved being sentient objects instead!)

I digress -- anyway, the point is, the resurrection establishes His divinity -- His "God-ness" -- while the incarnation establishes His character, defines for us the character of God. I like what someone else said on another thread, how very important it is, to recognize that in essence, Truth is a "Person", not merely a set of definitions, facts or propositions, not even those definitions, facts or propositions which speak ABOUT that "Person"!

Thus even with scripture (words) we may stumble, but with Christ we have surety. We can be wrong when we interpret or try to understand scripture, but pointing to Him is never wrong.

[Robert]

Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" [John 14:9]....

Some would argue that Jesus came to show God's good side, yet Jesus also came to show God's wrath. Here's where they quote the following:

John 2:13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the moneychangers at their business. 15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

Jesus, they say, took a whip to the people and drove them out. This is God's wrath....

Then there are other Bible statements:

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 “And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

[LifeHiscost]

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Thus even with scripture (words) we may stumble, but with Christ we have surety. We can be wrong when we interpret or try to understand scripture, but pointing to Him is never wrong.

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I'm with you, Nico, especially when we recognize that,

[:"red"]"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." [/]1 John 4:8

Knowing God to always be consistent with His previous pronouncements, not having any [:"red"]"shadow of turning", [/](James 1:17) we can correctly assume that even when He admits to the killing of something or someone, it was and is out of love and would have been less than love to do it differently.

A case in point is a seemingly innocent baby child, too young yet to develop meanspirited behaviour, yet taken in death.

We might look at it as tragedy, but God being able to see the end from the beginning, knows which poor irremedial choices that child would make if allowed longer life.

While our sorrow is not ignored by God, He would rather we sorrow briefly at this moment, than to have ultimate destruction of the adult, the circumstance to sorrow over.

Lift Jesus up!!

[DaveM1936]

Sometimes I like to cause trouble. In Sabbath School class this morning, I brought up the topic about the anger of God. I insisted that God never gets angry. I like to do this sometimes to get people to discuss issues that most of the time we avoid.

I quoted the following text:

Isa 27:2-5: In that day-- "Sing about a fruitful vineyard: I, the LORD, watch over it; I water it continually. I guard it day and night so that no one may harm it. [:"red"] I am not angry.[/] If only there were briers and thorns confronting me! I would march against them in battle; I would set them all on fire. Or else let them come to me for refuge; let them make peace with me, yes, let them make peace with me." (NIV)

"God never get angry with us; it says so here!" I said.

Of course some brought up such episodes as the flood, the slaying of the 185,000 Assyrians, the final lake of fire.

"Of course God did it. But He did not do it because He was angry with anyone. He did it to protect the human race from being totally taken over by Satan." These were emergency measures. In this life, people generally suffer from the natural consequences of their own actions. In fact, if God was not constantly intervening, we would all die at our own hands.

As a repentent sinner, who still struggles with temptations (as we all do as long as we live), I know that if I stumble again and again, I know that I can come to my Father. He will not be angry with me. He will be delighted that I decided to come back for help.

Someone said: "But He will be disappointed."

"Yes," I answered. "But disapointment is not the same as angry. I imaged that God had tears in His eyes as He felt the necessity of slaying 185,000 of His children in order to save the lives of some of His other children."

My Father loves me with a steadfast, unchanging love. Nothing I can do makes Him love me less. Nothing I can do makes Him love me more. The whole Christian world and many SDAs are hung up on an angry God who must be appeased. We often present the same type of hell and the same type of God as other churches do; only our hell is shorter in duration.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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...we can correctly assume that even when He admits to the killing of something or someone, it was and is out of love and would have been less than love to do it differently.

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That makes no sense....I love you, so I'm going kill you!

Do you realize the terror in the young child's mind when the great flood began? Do you realize that child slowly drowned - all the while trying to stay afloat? You call that love? I call that torture!

If God's going to kill out of love, then why do it in a torturous way? Take "stoning" for instance, don't you realize that’s an agonizing way to die? Most likely the first stone is not going to kill you....Terrible - and this is love???

I maintain that God doesn't kill. Take my quote of 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 for example:

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."

Did God kill him? NO, no, no, no!!!! Saul killed himself! Proof: Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . [:"red"]Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died “[/](1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

Saul killed Saul….he had rejected God…he hardened his heart, and because God’s love does not coerce – it does not force – God had to abandon Saul. Saul placed himself outside God’s protection (not that God believes in wars). Out of desperation Saul committed suicide.

Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. That’s the key to understanding God's so called dark-side.

[Robert]

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John 2:13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the moneychangers at their business. 15

And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

Jesus, they say, took a whip to the people and drove them out. This is God's wrath....

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This one isn't so difficult....Jesus made a whip for the purpose of driving out the animals....There's no record He actually whipped anyone. It's not within His nature to retaliate.

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Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Again, we see God (Jesus) taking responsibility for that which He does not prevent. Hell - the lake of fire - is no doubt caused because our sovereign God abandons this earth because "the wicked" have essentially told Him to get lost.

Because of sin, I believe this world would have self-destructed centuries ago….I believe God is literally holding this old world together. You need to realize that the flood placed the earth in an unnatural situation. We need God’s love and protection, without it this place is going to come unraveled.

You can see this “abandonment” issue in many places throughout the Bible. Let’s look at a couple:

So the anger of the Lord (i.e.,when He abandons/compare Roman 1:18,24) was aroused against them, and He departed. And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow (Numbers 12:9, 10).

How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

Note: Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God abandoned the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim.

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Matt 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 “And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

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Is Jesus serious or is He speaking tongue ‘n cheek? Who was Jesus speaking to? Matt 7:28 tell us it was “the crowds”. These people were heavily influenced by the Scribes and Pharisees. They had instructed the masses that heaven came by the keeping of the law. In an attempt to break their legalistic thinking, Christ gives them a deeper understanding of the spirituality of the law (see Matt 5:20-48)….He ends with what the law really demands: “You, therefore,must be perfect, [in comparison with what?] just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Then why the comment? Remember that the context is about adultery. Since adultery begins by eye-sight, then Jesus is saying that if you want to defeat this sin humanly - then you must gouge out your eyes. Again, He is showing the impossibility of gaining heaven by law. This, by the way, was the design of the Old Covenant.

[Robert]

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The whole Christian world and many SDAs are hung up on an angry God who must be appeased. We often present the same type of hell and the same type of God as other churches do; only our hell is shorter in duration.

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Good point....

[Robert]

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Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. That’s the key to understanding God's so called dark-side.

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"My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, [:"red"]and they shall be devoured.[/] And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the [evil] which they have done, in that [they have turned to other gods]" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, [:"red"]but you were not willing.[:"black"] 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

What happened in 70A.D.? Did Rome or God do that evil to Jerusalem?

Answer: Rome!

Why?

Israel rejected God - especially their need of Jesus Christ. They essentially told God to take a hike. Since God is not a God of force, He must remove Himself where He is not welcome. Legalism will cause God to retreat, just ask Job!

[Robert]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice, sin pays with death....God destroys no man!

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 02-17-91

-AT- The Measure of Light Given, Measures Our Responsibility

-PR- 02

What Pharaoh has done, will be done again and again by men until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown. As it was with Pharaoh, so it will be with him; when clearer light shines upon the truth [Jesus Christ], he will meet it with increased resistance, and the work of hardening the heart will go on with each rejection of the increasing light of heaven. In simplicity and truth we would speak to the impenitent in regard to the way in which men destroy their own souls. You are not to say that God is to blame, that he has made a decree against you. No, he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth, and to the haven of eternal bliss. No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation.

[Nicodema]

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That makes no sense....I love you, so I'm going kill you!

Do you realize the terror in the young child's mind when the great flood began? Do you realize that child slowly drowned - all the while trying to stay afloat? You call that love? I call that torture!

If God's going to kill out of love, then why do it in a torturous way? Take "stoning" for instance, don't you realize that’s an agonizing way to die? Most likely the first stone is not going to kill you....Terrible - and this is love???

I maintain that God doesn't kill.

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OK, I hear you, and I basically agree with (at least) where I think you are coming from on this, but I have a serious problem with some of the logistics and mental gymnastics involved here.

First and foremost, simply saying "God isn't the one doing the killing" is not enough for me. Not when we are talking about Someone who is omnipotent and Whose will ultimately overrides and controls the entire universe and all events within it.

Which is worst, cruelest -- to BE a killer yourself? OR ... to have ALL the power to STOP a killer or a killing, yet stand by hands-off as if you were powerless to affect anything and simply watch and LET it happen? Particularly in such cases where those suffering are literally screaming out your name BEGGING you to intervene, to step in, to show yourself, to rescue them, to deliver them? You know, I'm only one sentient creature, and a fairly (physically) weak and ineffectual one at that, but I think if someone was literally looking into my eyes begging and PLEADING with me to do SOMETHING, I would have to at least try, even if it meant I'd get killed. I don't think I could just turn my back and walk away and let them be tortured or killed without at least TRYING to create enough of a diversion so that they could escape! And that's knowing (a) I have no power to stop it; ( I have a greater chance of failing; and © even if I succeed, I am likely to die for my effort.

Now granted, I might be flattering myself. I've never had a situation like that. If I ever did, I might just totally chicken out and save my own hide. We never know until we are actually placed in that kind of setting what we will do, you know? But let's say for sake of argument that I'm assessing myself accurately here. How much MORE, then, would I be inclined to intervene and stop someone from killing or torturing or abusing another if I were an Omnipotent Being whose view of things was absolutely perfect!! Whether they were crying out to me to save them OR NOT!! And yet God doesn't. He sets up the game so that we aren't even "allowed" to "expect" Him to. We're supposed to be like Daniel and the 3 Hebrews in the Lion's Den, obedient to empty commands on the pure "because I say so" basis of His authority, whether He honors that obedience or lets us rot. We're supposed to assume ALL the responsibility -- who are the weakest of the weak -- while He who has power to do whatever He pleases can get away with letting us down when we are the poor and needy who depend entirely upon Him. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

Jesus Himself said that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without God's notice and care. But at the same time, Jesus never bothered to explain HOW a sparrow could STILL fall to the ground IF the Father actually noticed, or cared. Do you see my point here?

[Robert]

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First and foremost, simply saying, "God isn't the one doing the killing" is not enough for me. Not when we are talking about Someone who is omnipotent and Whose will ultimately overrides and controls the entire universe and all events within it.

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I disagree with your statement that, "His will ultimately overrides...the entire universe...."

It was never God's will that Adam would hand over dominion of this world to Satan. In fact it was never God's will for Lucifer to invent the principle of "self" and start the rebellion. That's just a few things....

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Which is worst, cruelest -- to BE a killer yourself? OR ... to have ALL the power to STOP a killer or a killing, yet stand by hands-off as if you were powerless to affect anything and simply watch and LET it happen?

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Power?.... Remember that you are talking of the power born of love....This love cannot and will not dictate to its creatures how to live their lives. God fully recognizes "free-will" - choice!

Take the Old Covenant - it was never His idea rather Israel's....He entered it hoping they would learn from it, but they hardened their hearts. They said, "No, God...you give us your rules and in return will keep them and you'll owe us heaven." So God said, "Okay, but if you fail then according to My law you must die"!

How stubborn and idiotic they were to enter such an agreement! I believe I would have said, "NO WAY!" Yet we see that Israel entered that agreement. The results? Look, for example, at Numbers 15:32-36

32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. [huh?] 35 Then the LORD [not Moses, not those who found him] said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Sounds mean, huh? Was this God's will??? Absolutely not - it was Israel’s collective will....In fact the world in general is under the O.C.! They do not need that man called Jesus Christ - they are just fine, decent people who need no Savior. What will condemn them in the end? "The Law"....Why? Self-righteousness - legalism - pride - the essence of a harden heart. They bring destruction on themselves. God, in His love, has to give into to their stubborn will. He values choice!

[Robert]

This is not the best illustration, but here goes:

Let's say you ratted on some big drug lord, and the FBI has relocated you to safe location outside the city. The FBI assigns you your own private guard. He's there day and night....This man represents God's love and protection.

At first you love the country; there's much to do. But eventually you grow bored and talk of going into town. The agent reasons with you and this time you submit, but eventually you can't stand it and go into town. Someone notices you and before you know it, well, you're dead!

Who killed whom? Was it the agent (God) or was it your own "free-will" that got you into trouble? Now sure, the agent could have tackled you and locked you in your room. Would that be okay? Now he's going against your will....

[Nicodema]

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I disagree with your statement that, "His will ultimately overrides...the entire universe...."

It was never God's will that Adam would hand over dominion of this world to Satan. In fact it was never God's will for Lucifer to invent the principle of "self" and start the rebellion. That's just a few things....

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Yes, but He permitted it, and if He had not chosen to do so, He could have prevented or disallowed it. That was basically my point.

[Nicodema]

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Power?.... Remember that you are talking of the power born of love....This love cannot and will not dictate to its creatures how to live their lives. God fully recognizes "free-will" - choice!

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And in the end free-will means nothing, because He brings down the curtain of eternal destruction on anyone who has not made the choices He wants them to make. He could sustain their lives, He could produce the kinds of influences in their lives that would lead them to think about things differently from the same-old, same-old that has led them to their despair, futility and sin all those years, but instead He votes for a lake of fire and goodbye forever.

So much for FREE will. I don't even believe in free will anymore. I think our entire human take on that is just another level of hubris such as you described in the latter statements of your post. People want to believe they are so important and they are so much in control. No one wants to admit to being a product of his environment, upbringing, social conditioning, peer atmosphere, media programming, zeitgeist, whatever. Nope. Everyone wants to pretend they are in charge of themselves so they can point fingers at anyone who clearly cannot "take control of" themselves (whatever THAT means) and feel superior instead of recognizing the sameness of their own plight. It's the same reason mental illness is stigmatized -- because it exteriorizes the darker sides of our own very "normal" thought processes and unconscious urges and gives them voice and vehemence, and "we" want to believe "those people over there" who are "crazy" are the only ones who think and feel such things, good grief, lock them up so the rest of us can be safe. It's all hogwash -- human hubris and hogwash!

[Robert]

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I disagree with your statement that, "His will ultimately overrides...the entire universe...."

It was never God's will that Adam would hand over dominion of this world to Satan. In fact it was never God's will for Lucifer to invent the principle of "self" and start the rebellion. That's just a few things....

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Yes, but He permitted it, and if He had not chosen to do so, He could have prevented or disallowed it. That was basically my point.

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It's impossible for God to coerce - to force! If God were sinful He could have said, "No, Lucifer, here's how I want you to think".

[Robert]

My Father, who has given them [believers] to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. [John 10:29]

What do you do with this?

[Nicodema]

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It's impossible for God to coerce - to force! If God were sinful He could have said, "No, Lucifer, here's how I want you to think".

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Two questions:

(1) You say "impossible" -- impossible how? As in, this is the proverbial "rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it," so to speak? Or as in that is not the kind of decision He would make because it is inconsistent with His nature/character?

(2) What about the flip side -- a creature lost and drowning in sin, thoroughly infected with the Virus -- who desperately yearns to experience something other than what his natural state of mind, thoughts, feelings would be under this infected condition, who cries out for God to PUT something else into him? Does God still turn His back so that He will not violate His precious, precious commitment to never be misinterpreted before the watching universe as One who coerces???

[Nicodema]

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My Father, who has given them [believers] to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. [John 10:29]

What do you do with this?

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What do I do with this? I dispute it, for I am living proof that one can indeed be snatched out of the Father's hand. Of course, there is no way I can prove that to anyone else. Aye, there's the rub. There are already a dozen verses in scripture that people can use to wall themselves away from the veracity of what I experienced when, in 1983, despite continual prayers and pleas and crying out to God for deliverance, I was "kidnapped" by Satan to serve him instead. But let me try to tell that to another, and I will have every indignity and insult and lie and false accusation in the book thrown at me, from quoting "God cannot lie" to putting ME on trial and trying to find a zillion ways to hang ME and claim it was the result of something I did.

So in the end, what do I do with it? Nothing at all. I live in my own private hell over being a walking dispute of its veracity and to protect myself from human cruelties, I don't raise the issue with others because I know it will get me nowhere. No one will hear me if I testify to the "innocence" (relatively speaking) of that naive 18 year old girl back then who just desperately wanted to serve God and be on the straight and narrow. They will just hurl blame and fault upon me and shove me into the same theological Gordian knot that strangled me back then. I had no explanation for it then, and I have none to offer now. At least, none that will enable me to seek God or hope to be with Him. Satan was the only one who could make any sense out of it for me, but the sense that he made from it was, of course, according to his own logic and to serve his purposes. And we all know what that's about.

[DaveM1936]

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So in the end, what do I do with it? Nothing at all. I live in my own private hell over being a walking dispute of its veracity and to protect myself from human cruelties, I don't raise the issue with others because I know it will get me nowhere. No one will hear me if I testify to the "innocence" (relatively speaking) of that naive 18 year old girl back then who just desperately wanted to serve God and be on the straight and narrow. They will just hurl blame and fault upon me and shove me into the same theological Gordian knot that strangled me back then. I had no explanation for it then, and I have none to offer now. At least, none that will enable me to seek God or hope to be with Him. Satan was the only one who could make any sense out of it for me, but the sense that he made from it was, of course, according to his own logic and to serve his purposes. And we all know what that's about.

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What is a Gordian knot?

I am reading a book called "Disappointment with God." I think it might help you. You could probably find it in a Christian bookstore.

You sound as if you are still struggling with knowing whether God accepts you or not. Is this true?

Why doesn't God just step in and prevent us from making serious mistakes? Why doesn't He seem to answer our prayers for help?

I can only speak from my own experience. I had been trapped by Satan also. As a teenager I struggled with sin. I would pray for God's help. For a time, I seemed to be OK. But then I would slip again. Finally, after graduating from Andrews Univeristy in 1961, I gave up completely and decided that something was wrong with me. I gave up on God. Since I could never be saved, I might as well have this world. No use missing out on both.

Years later, the Lord broke through to me. I started attending church again. I went back to Andrews to obtain an MA degree. Then I went to Wisconsin to become an LE. Looking back on it now, I can see that I did not know myself or the depth of evil that exists in any human heart. I though I understood the gospel.

But then, like you, I feel back into my old habits. This time I really messed up my life. IF God knows everything, then He knew what my future history was when He called me.

As I look back on these years now, I can see that God led me in the only way that He could save me. Maybe saying that God led me is wrong. He permitted me to follow my own choices. But he monitored me and kept Satan from completely destroying me.

Every step that you or I took over the years was because of our own choices. All of us do have complete freedom of choice. In heaven, we will still have complete freedom of choice. What God is doing with each of us is training how to make healthy decisions. Because of Calvary, God can use the trial and error method.

I had to learn my own weaknesses of character that I did not know I had. I had to learn that I could trust God completely. Being quite self-reliant, I had to learn that I could not rely on myself.

This is a special text for me:

Joel 2:23-26:

Be glad then, you children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God; for He has given you the former rain faithfully, and He will cause the rain to come down for you-- the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil. " [:"red"] So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the crawling locust, the consuming locust, and the chewing locust, my great army which I sent among you.[/] You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, who has dealt wondrously with you; and My people shall never be put to shame. (NKJ)

The locust have eaten up many years of my life. God sent these "locust" in the sense that He allowed it because He know what it was going to take to save me. But when the lesson is finally learned, He promises to restore to us what He allowed to be taken away.

The Lord is leading you, protecting you. He is never angry with you. I also cannot tell people about the struggles. However, because of them, I can reach out to encourage others going through the same struggles. If you could have been saved in any other way, Jesus would have done it. He is your Best Friend.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Nicodema]

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What is a Gordian knot?

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Essentially it is a knot which can neither be loosened nor untied. A problem that has no resolution or undoing. A Gordian knot is an inextricable difficulty.

The reference comes from history. King Gordius of Phrygia tied an intricate knot. An oracle declared that he who should untie it should be master of Asia. Alexander the Great averted the ill omen of his inability to loosen it by cutting it with his sword.

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You sound as if you are still struggling with knowing whether God accepts you or not. Is this true?

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Perhaps. I really don't know. This feels like a tremendous oversimplification of something that is anything but simple and/or easily resolved for me.

[Robert]

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Two questions:

(1) You say "impossible" -- impossible how? As in, this is the proverbial "rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it," so to speak? Or as in that is not the kind of decision He would make because it is inconsistent with His nature/character?

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The latter....

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(2) What about the flip side -- a creature lost and drowning in sin, thoroughly infected with the Virus -- who desperately

yearns

to experience something other than what his natural state of mind, thoughts, feelings would be under this infected condition,

who cries out

for God to PUT something else into him? Does God still turn His back so that He will not violate His

precious, precious

commitment to never be misinterpreted before the watching universe as

One who coerces

???

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"Cries out" is an act of the will....This person is inviting God into his/her life.

[Robert]

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My Father, who has given them [believers] to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. [John 10:29]

What do you do with this?

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What do I do with this? I dispute it, for I am living proof that one can indeed be snatched out of the Father's hand. Of course, there is no way I can prove that to anyone else. Aye, there's the rub. There are already a dozen verses in scripture that people can use to wall themselves away from the veracity of what I experienced when, in 1983, despite continual prayers and pleas and crying out to God for deliverance, I was "kidnapped" by Satan to serve him instead. But let me try to tell that to another, and I will have every indignity and insult and lie and false accusation in the book thrown at me, from quoting "God cannot lie" to putting ME on trial and trying to find a zillion ways to hang ME and claim it was the result of something I did.

So in the end, what do I do with it? Nothing at all. I live in my own private hell over being a walking dispute of its veracity and to protect myself from human cruelties, I don't raise the issue with others because I know it will get me nowhere. No one will hear me if I testify to the "innocence" (relatively speaking) of that naive 18 year old girl back then who just desperately wanted to serve God and be on the straight and narrow. They will just hurl blame and fault upon me and shove me into the same theological Gordian knot that strangled me back then. I had no explanation for it then, and I have none to offer now. At least, none that will enable me to seek God or hope to be with Him. Satan was the only one who could make any sense out of it for me, but the sense that he made from it was, of course, according to his own logic and to serve his purposes. And we all know what that's about.

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My point is...if your faith is firmly in God, no one - the devil - your enemies, etc...no one can snatch you away from God and everlasting life. However, this "no one" doesn't include you, yourself....You can (free-will) say goodbye to God....

I mentioned this verse because many Christians believe this is evidence that God breaks the will. You know, no matter how hard you try to let go God's going to prevent it. That's all....

[Nicodema]

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Of course, there is

no way I can prove that to anyone

else

. Aye, there's the rub. There are already a dozen verses in scripture that people can use to wall themselves away from the veracity of what I experienced ...

let me try to tell that to another

, and I will have every indignity and insult and lie and

false accusation in the book thrown at me

, from quoting "God cannot lie" to putting ME on trial and trying to find a zillion ways to

hang ME and claim it was the result of something I did

.

[:"808080"]

(emphasis added)

[/]

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My point is...if your faith is firmly in God, no one - the devil - your enemies, etc...no one can snatch you away from God and everlasting life. However, this "no one" doesn't include you, yourself....You can (free-will) say goodbye to God....

[:"808080"](emphasis added)[/]

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Yes, thank you for illustrating my point and for showing me some things never change.

That's the problem with trying to find truth and/or answers in life. The ones you really need are never one-size-fits all, and in order to enquire you must disclose the dimensions of your own soul. Which is rather like parading naked in public -- a nuisance to others, an embarrassment to self.

[Robert]

Hope you find comfort in the following:

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, “FOR THY SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.” 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, [:"red"]shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/]