LifeHiscost Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Quote: All need to see that this second death is an much an act of love as anything else God has done. Dave M Exactly! [:"red"]"...God is love." [/]the (Holy) Bible There are some who believe that God is somewhat like a chameleon, becoming whatever evil characteristic is needed to deal with the evil. And conversely, reverting to goodness in dealing with His beloved chosen. That is a fallacy totally inconsistent with the Word and His reliability. [:"red"]"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. [/]Heb 13:8 [:"red"]"I and the Father are One! [/]John 10:30 Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Quote: Without this phase of the judgment, would there not be questions in everyone's mind as to the fairness of God in doing His unnatural act? All need to see that this second death is an much an act of love as anything else God has done. This is a difficult sell. Let me list a few questions. What purpose is served to punish beings who are going to be dead for all eternity? Is it for the benefit of the saved? Do they need to see the lost suffer for their sins? Does God need to balance some debt of suffering? What happened to principles of forgiveness? If God asks us to turn the other cheek, why doesn't He? Can't we forgive even the unrepentant? Do we need our pound of flesh to be satisfied? Didn't Jesus already demonstrate the results of sin on the cross for everyone, even the unrepentant? This idea that people have to burn for a time equal to their offenses seems rather infantile on the part of God and the saved. It seems far below the principles of forgiveness that Jesus outlined in His description of the kingdom of God. If any of you have read Les Miserable it is an incredible exploration of the principles of forgiveness. The priest at the beginning demonstrates an understanding of the desparation of the victimized. Even though, during the theft of his silverware, he receives a blow to the head, he offers all the silverware to the thief, saying, "You must need this more than I." He demonstrates his freedom from greed and needing things to feel secure. He also recognizes need and that crime does not come from evil beings, it comes from fear and isolation and lack of love. He is not concerned with justice, but with love. Burning people for their sins is concerned with justice and reveals a spiritual development that has little empathy and little understanding of forgiveness. If the price has been paid by Jesus then only the request of the lost to die need be fulfilled. I see no purpose in a forgiving and compassionate heart for torture. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 22, 2004 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2004 Quote: Sorry, you cannot convince me that God kills.... [:"blue"]You are stuck not in denominationalism, Robert, but in wrong premises & wrong conclusions. Set your mind free! Free to think God's thoughts. Free think God is the same yesterday, today, & forever. Free your mind from serpentine hermeneutics before you tie yourself up in a Gordian knot. Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 Quote: Quote: Sorry, you cannot convince me that God kills.... [:"blue"]You are stuck not in denominationalism, Robert, but in wrong premises & wrong conclusions. [/] Ah, but Gerry - your thoughts are based on human reasoning; human logic and human attributes. I'm not trying to reason on the human level. Why? God says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." [is 55:8,9] It's this simple: Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from [:"red"]the curse of the Law[/], having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”.... Note: Christ didn't come to save us from "hell" - no! He came to save us from, "the curse of the law" - "For it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'” [Gal 3:10] The question then is what "the curse of the law"? Answer: “...if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God)." Deut 21:22,23 Did God put Jesus on that "tree"? No! Evil put Jesus on that tree....Proof: "When I [Jesus] was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." Luke 22:53 Who did evil to Jesus? Sinful men backed by Satan. They tortured Him and nailed him to a "tree". Now that plays absolutely nothing to your salvation because Satan and evil men do not constitute "the curse of the law". What constitutes "the curse" is what God did....He abandoned Jesus...He withdrew...He retreated! Proof: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matt 27:46 Now for Ellen (since you need her confirmation): -BC- DA -TI- The Desire of Ages -CN- 78 -CT- Calvary -PR- 01 -PG- 753 Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. [:"red"]The withdrawal of the divine countenance[/] from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish [caused by what Satan did] pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.[:"red"] So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race.[:"black"] Okay...since we now know how God deals with sin (He abandons), then we know how the sinner will die and what makes him die: THE SEPARATION As Ellen says, "Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race" Free your mind now! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 Excellent questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Quote: What purpose is served to punish beings who are going to be dead for all eternity? Is it for the benefit of the saved? Do they need to see the lost suffer for their sins? Does God need to balance some debt of suffering? What happened to principles of forgiveness? If God asks us to turn the other cheek, why doesn't He? Can't we forgive even the unrepentant? Do we need our pound of flesh to be satisfied? Didn't Jesus already demonstrate the results of sin on the cross for everyone, even the unrepentant? What purpose is served to punish beings who are going to be dead for all eternity? None. They are not being punished. The court has sat and reached a verdict on their quilt. I am not sure how you mean "punish". If you mean in a vendictive way, they are not. If you mean in a legal sense, then they are. Carrying out of the sentence would be a better way of putting it. Is it for the benefit of the saved? Yes. And for the rest of the universe as well. How can all of them know if God is fair? Do they need to see the lost suffer for their sins? Yes. Again your question assumes something other than a court picture. They have received the just and fair verdict of an impartial court. Does God need to balance some debt of suffering? NO. What happened to principles of forgiveness? Nothing. Forgiveness is only good for those who want it. It also implies a change of character. Again this is a court picture. A judge will be lenient when he beleives that the person can be rehabilitated. All sinners can be restored. Those who insist on their retaining their selfish, uncaring characters will not receive forgiveness because they are not interested in it. If God asks us to turn the other cheek, why doesn't He? He does it all the time. At least 490 for every sin. Again we are talking about whether to give immortality to people who would continue to kill, harm, and do whatever they pleased no matter who they harmed. What you want such people to receive eternal life? Can't we forgive even the unrepentant? No. Forgiveness is an exchange. I give for the righteousness of Christ my sinfulness. He has my sinfulness. I have His righteousness. Remaining unrepentant means that the person insists on retaining the faulty character that calls for repentance. If the person will not change, then the judge would never consider setting him feee to commit more crimes. Do we need our pound of flesh to be satisfied? What has this question got to do with the discussion? We are not the judge. God is. The question should be worded: Does God need His pound of flesh? NO. NO. NO. He needs justice done. He wants people saved who are safe to save. Forgiveness is only the start of the saving process. The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall. Didn't Jesus already demonstrate the results of sin on the cross for everyone, even the unrepentant? Of course. Then why would any sane person choose to die such a death when Jesus already has? Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall. Pure, unadulterated legalism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 Here's some more, "Who done it?" Who destroyed the firstborn of Egypt? “I [God] will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12). Ah, but there's some clarification: “For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood (which stood for justification by faith) on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23). Hmmm? Who is the "destroyer"? Is 14:14 I [satan] will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof.... Satan is the destroyer! God, because of free will, removed Himself from the households that rejected the only means of redemption - justification by faith! Our heavenly Father assures us He is in charge of His universe. As Creator of heavens and earth and Sustainer of life in the universe, He will never give Satan equal billing with Himself - He will never point a finger and say, "He did it!" Since God could have prevented an incident but, out of respect for His creatures' free will, chose not to do so, He sees and describes Himself as doing that which He does not prevent..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: At least 490 for every sin. Dave M Hopefully this will be seen for what its worth. [:"red"]"Then Peter came and said to Him, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.'" [/]Matt 18:21,22 The logic given, leads me to believe this figure was given to Peter first to recognize Peter's wisdom in choosing the number of perfection, and secondly to point out the unfathomable times one would forgive as a disciple of Christ, for what man could be expected in their fallible state, to remember the 490th time they had been transgressed against, then going on to exercise the hardness of heart that exists in the unforgiving mind? Blessings! Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Quote: The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall. Pure, unadulterated legalism! [:"red"]And I saw the holy city, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away..... and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life." [/] Revelation 21:2-4,27 And I would suppose that the voice from the throne would also be considered by some to be entirely too legalistic. Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Since God could have prevented an incident but, out of respect for His creatures' free will, chose not to do so, He sees and describes Himself as doing that which He does not prevent..... Either God is sovereign over all, or He is not sovereign at all. You've heard the idiom, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." Just rewards are visited upon all of God's created beings. The tool that is used is within God's sovereignty and subject to His wisdom. [:"red"]"Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness.' Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master..." [/]2 Tim 2:19-21 Logically it would follow if a person did not cleanse himself he might be used as a vessel of dishonor for the Lord's needs of discipline.. Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: What has this question got to do with the discussion? We are not the judge. God is. The question should be worded: Does God need His pound of flesh? NO. NO. NO. He needs justice done. These series of questions were in reference to the Ellen White quote which stated that people would burn for different time periods depending on their sinfulness. Does God need his pound of flesh? Or can these beings simply be as if they had never been? Why do we need the torture if Jesus bore the torture already? I am not even suggesting that they be forced to live, but I do question the need for torture in the name of justice. Does God and the saved need to see that to be satisfied? What satisfaction would be gained to watch someone burn for several days or even hours or minutes? Is not forgiveness useful even in the death of the wicked? Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Logically it would follow if a person did not cleanse himself he might be used as a vessel of dishonor for the Lord's needs of discipline.. More legalism & self-righteousness! Here's perfection [what the law requires]: As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Christ lived for others....There was no self-seeking in His life to the point of homelessness..... Therefore be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 23, 2004 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Here's some more, "Who done it?" Who destroyed the firstborn of Egypt? “ I [God] will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12). Ah, but there's some clarification: “For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood (which stood for justification by faith) on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23). Hmmm? Who is the "destroyer"? Is 14:14 I [satan] will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof.... Satan is the destroyer! God, because of free will, removed Himself from the households that rejected the only means of redemption - justification by faith! [:"blue"]I have no problem with your explanation of the death of the firstborn, but who will destroy Satan? Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 23, 2004 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Quote: The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall. Pure, unadulterated legalism! [:"blue"] "Try to live in peace with everyone, and seek to live a clean and holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord." Heb 12:14 NLT. "But God's truth stands firm like a foundation stone with this inscription: 'The Lord knows those who are his,' and [:"red"]'Those who claim they belong to the Lord must turn away from all wickedness.' [/] 2 Tim 2:19 NLT "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." 2 Cor 7:1 NIV [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: I have no problem with your explanation of the death of the firstborn, but who will destroy Satan? Our planet without God's presence, i.e., from natural disasters awaiting God's release - His retreat. "The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you." 2 Chronicles 15:2 The choice for separation is always, first, a human decision. But given this human decision, God has no choice but to honor it. "My people would not heed My voice, and Israel would have none of Me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels." Rather than feeling glee at His chance now to "get them" for their rebellion, He says, "Oh, that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would soon subdue their enemies, and turn My hand against their adversaries" (Psalm 81:11-14). No joy here in human waywardness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Quote: Quote: The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall. Pure, unadulterated legalism! [:"blue"] "Try to live in peace with everyone, and seek to live a clean and holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord." Heb 12:14 NLT. You must remember that "in Christ" our new humanity is holy, but as children of Adam we are sinful. "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification [growth] without which no one will see the Lord." [NASB] The evidence of faith is a change of direction - not perfection. So the statement, "The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall" is misleading...it is legalistic. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 23, 2004 Author Share Posted June 23, 2004 Quote: Either God is sovereign over all, or He is not sovereign at all. You are thinking in human terms....In God's kingdom the greatest is the servant of all.....Since God is the greatest, He is our servant, or God - but He does not have sinful, human attributes. In His sovereignty His love can do no other than to let free-will reign (not to mention its consequences). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: Pure, unadulterated legalism! Apparently you ignored my post to you and Gerry about the nasty, unkind way you two treated each other. It will not work when you try it on me. I am only interested in a discussion of ideas. You seem to be treating me like an enemey. Then God commands you to love me. Luke 6:35: But [:"red"] love your enemies,[/] do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. (NIV) Do I qualify as your neighbor? Then Jesus asks you to love me. Mark 12:33: To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to [:"red"] love your neighbor[/] as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." (NIV) Do you love Jesus? Then you must love me too. John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you [:"red"] must love one another.[/] (NIV) I do qualify as an "other". So you must love me. John 15:12: My command is this: [:"red"] Love each other [/] as I have loved you. (NIV) I know I am your friend. So you must love me. John 15:13: Greater love has no one than this, that he [:"red"] lay down his life for his friends. [/] (NIV) Do you have faith? Then you will love me. If you deny you love me, then you do not have faith. Gal 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is [:"red"] faith expressing itself through love. [/] (NIV) Are you working for Christ? Then you must treat me with love. 1Thes 1:3: We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, [:"red"] your labor prompted by love,[/] and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (NIV) I know I am a child of God. Since God commands you to love me, then I will know whether you love God or not by how you love me. I Jn 5:2: This is how we know that [:"red"] we love the children of God:[/] by loving God and carrying out his commands. (NIV) At 67, I, by now, know love when I see and hear it. Your loving me, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: These series of questions were in reference to the Ellen White quote which stated that people would burn for different time periods depending on their sinfulness. Just for the record, do you believe EGW to be God's prophet for the last day church? I don't care whether you do or not. I just want to know what you think so I will know how to answer you in the future. If you do not so beleive, then why not? Quote: I am not even suggesting that they be forced to live, but I do question the need for torture in the name of justice. Does God and the saved need to see that to be satisfied? What satisfaction would be gained to watch someone burn for several days or even hours or minutes? Is not forgiveness useful even in the death of the wicked? What then is your take on what we are doing in Iraq? Is this torture or just our way of getting information? Why do you ignore my point that God has a court system and that He is a fair Judge? Isn't the lake of fire a part of this court system? If not the lake of fire, how would you carry out the just sentence each person earned? Shouldn't the verdict fit the crime? Haven't we all earn a place of this lake of fire? Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2004 Author Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: Quote: Pure, unadulterated legalism! Apparently you ignored my post to you and Gerry about the nasty, unkind way you two treated each other. It will not work when you try it on me. I am only interested in a discussion of ideas. Unkind? No, truth....Just as Paul called the legalists of his day "dogs" (see Phil 3:2). Quote: You seem to be treating me like an enemy. Then God commands you to love me. You've quoted quite a few verses, but it's ironic that you left out the real good ones! God is setting a standard that He would like to see us move towards under grace. But you make it a command.... Okay, if you are going to go there then let's quote those "real good ones" that I hinted at above....Are you ready? Here goes: Luke 6:30 (NIV) Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. By the way, send me $10,000.... Wait, there's more: 32 “If [:"blue"]you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them.[/] 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. Did you get that? Even sinners love those who love them back. In other words - big deal! Now here's real love: 35 But love your enemies, do good to them... How? and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. What? Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. No wonder Jesus was homeless! (see Luke 9:58) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 24, 2004 Author Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: What then is your take on what we are doing in Iraq? "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth!" You kick my dog and I'll kick yours, etc, etc.... Quote: Why do you ignore my point that God has a court system and that He is a fair Judge? If God were fair you (and I) would be lost...abandoned! Why? We are not good enough for heaven.... Ah, but the good news is that "in Christ" we are actually righteous.....So "in Him" we do not enter into condemnation! Quote: Isn't the lake of fire a part of this court system? If not the lake of fire, how would you carry out the just sentence each person earned? Shouldn't the verdict fit the crime? Human speculation! Then Jesus, since He took ALL our sins, should be still burning....Ridiculous concepts of human justice corrupts God's love! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urijah7 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: Quote: I have no problem with your explanation of the death of the firstborn, but who will destroy Satan? Our planet without God's presence... Robert, I respectfully disagree. I believe that it is *in and through* God's presence that Satan is destroyed... The message to the 7 churches, the counterpart to the Beattitudes, tells us how to overcome every stronghold the world has on our minds, hearts, and souls. Culminating in Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death. Sometimes we take the above passage to assume it must refer to some instant moment of heroism. I suggest that may be an oversimplification. The context of Revelation suggests that this victory comes through a determined, engaged willingness to daily overcome and cast aside our desires, the lives we would live, for God's desires and how He would have us live. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: Just for the record, do you believe EGW to be God's prophet for the last day church? No Quote: I don't care whether you do or not. I just want to know what you think so I will know how to answer you in the future. If you do not so beleive, then why not? There are a number of problems, much too extensive to discuss in this thread, that cast serious doubt on her ability as a prophet. And there are a number of paradoxial problems with a number of her claims. And probably most influencial is my personal experience trying to follow the advice in her writings. Quote: What then is your take on what we are doing in Iraq? Is this torture or just our way of getting information? Are you saying that we are doing God's work in Iraq? Quote: Why do you ignore my point that God has a court system and that He is a fair Judge? Isn't the lake of fire a part of this court system? If not the lake of fire, how would you carry out the just sentence each person earned? Shouldn't the verdict fit the crime? I didn't ignore it. I thought it was obvious that burning people as a form of punishment would not be part of a loving God's program. I would think that eternal death would be sufficient. The only lesson to be learned by this display of God's justice would be fear. I would shudder to live with anyone who thought that torture brought some kind of balance and satisfaction. What would be the purpose of teaching Hitler a lesson in suffering if He were to be lost for all eternity? What would Hitler suffering the same thing that He inflicted on millions of Jews in a lake of fire for days and days do to the saved who would be observing his screams of pain? Would the saved be saying, yes now we see God's love for us demonstrated. What a wonderful demonstration of God's justice. This would be pretty sick stuff. It would be hard to tell the difference between the saved and the lost. This is God essentially doing worse things than Hitler. If my heart had been converted and softened to the point that I had forgiven my enemies, why would I want to observe their suffering if they happened to be part of the lost? And if my heart can reach out in love to my enemy with a desire to relieve their suffering, how much more could God's heart reach out to the very children He created? We don't even practice this form of punishment in our own justice system because we believe it will make us just like those we punish. And this has been demonstrated many times in the past. So there are some great difficulties in justifying torture as a method God would use. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 24, 2004 Moderators Share Posted June 24, 2004 Quote: The evidence of faith is a change of direction - not perfection. So the statement, "The Holy Spirit must completely restore us to what Adam was before the fall" is misleading...it is legalistic. Rob [:"blue"]While I believe that perfection of performance is not possible in this flesh, your statement that what Dave said is legalistic is pure baloney. Then you would have to charge God himself of legalism for He demands perfection. But the perfection He demands is not perfect performance for He knows we are made up of sinful flesh, but He demands a perfect heart which He promised to give as part of accepting His covenant. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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