LifeHiscost Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Quote: [:"blue"]Nico, that is beautiful & profound. That the negative consequences of violating God's laws are also a product of His mercy, I have not thought of them in that way before. Gerry [/] Could that be analogous to pain being a blessing from God for the preservation of the body? Likewise spiritual pain for the preservation of the body of Christ? [:"red"]"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." [/]Rom 8:28 Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Quote: [:"blue"]Nico, that is beautiful & profound. That the negative consequences of violating God's laws are also a product of His mercy, I have not thought of them in that way before. [/] Spread the word ... Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 13, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 13, 2004 Quote: Quote: [:"blue"]Nico, that is beautiful & profound. That the negative consequences of violating God's laws are also a product of His mercy, I have not thought of them in that way before. Gerry [/] Could that be analogous to pain being a blessing from God for the preservation of the body? Likewise spiritual pain for the preservation of the body of Christ? [:"red"]"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." [/]Rom 8:28 Lift Jesus up!! [:"blue"]Phillip Yancey in his collaborated book with Dr. Brand brings this out, that though we don't normally think of it (pain) as such, it is nevertheless a blessing from God. Yes, pain definitely is a warning, telling us to reexamine where we are and to change our course. Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 This is why it can be so "crazymaking" to be under attack from Satan. The enemy wreaks havoc with our perceptions of reality, particularly in the realm of cause and effect and the meaning thereof. From meaninglessness to warped and inverted false meanings taken as truth, he manufactures a multitude of devices designed to try to rip to shreds the usefulness of two of Father's most accessible and universal appointed teachers: Time and Experience. God has ordained that Time and Experience testify to His glory in our lives, and Satan seeks to manipulate and warp things precisely to thwart their witness. I have seen the enemy have us to cast blame on others so we cannot learn from our own mistakes AND just as often, suffocate ourselves with blame and self-recrimination when we have been hurt by others or when misfortune befalls us which is not our fault or doing, so that we alienate and remove ourselves from our Divine Healer who is ready to minister to us in our infirmities, trials and sufferings. Anything, anything to keep us from reading the patterns of life aright so as to discern the weave of the Everlasting Covenant and be drawn to our Maker. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 18, 2005 Author Share Posted March 18, 2005 Sin decides....The wages of sin is death, not God's going to kill.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 Man alive, this post gets read a bunch....I love it! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 I am going to post parts of the book, "Light on the Dark Side of God" for all to read. I suggest that you buy this book: Purchase Copyright ©1989-2005 by M. M. Campbell Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 89-90676 ISBN 0-927022-00-1 Edited by Janice Longpre Design by Ed Guthero Cover art by Darrel Tank "The anger of the Lord will not turn back until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly." OUR MISUNDERSTOOD GOD "The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). Years ago a realtor showed me a house as a possible purchase. It was a "fixer-upper," modestly priced, boasting a glorious eastern view from the large living room window. Rich dark grass and the thick hanging foliage of shade trees and ornamental bushes stretched out toward a patchwork valley floor, which faded into blue hills far in the distance. The view was everything the realtor said, from that direction. But he didn't say much about the back yard, set up against a rail fence that surrounded the local stockyards. Only a salesman could evaluate that house without reference to the back yard. When my thoughts turn to the Being we call "God," I remember that house, for there is also a wondrously strange side to our traditional view of Goda side that seems dark to us at timesa perplexing side rarely mentioned from the pulpit today, even though it has puzzled thoughtful men and women for centuries, perhaps millennia. Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God In colonial America a Massachusetts minister named Jonathan Edwards, appalled at the worldliness creeping into his church, warned his parishioners of this "dark side" of God and the fate awaiting them if they continued in their unrepentant ways. No one since has described it better than he in his historic sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, as the most hateful and venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment: it is ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was [sic] suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep; and there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up: there is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not at this very moment drop down into hell. Edwards so moved his congregation with his description of God's character and the tortures of the damned, he sparked a revival known to history as the Great Awakening. Such is the power of a sermon well prepared. But his style has gone out of fashion among the clergy, and they, like my real estate salesman, generally consider it inappropriate to mention "the back yard" any more. Ethical Problems Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic? How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like? How can a God who kills command His people not to killand yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity. The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of an eternally burning hell in these words: "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . . "Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." Those who believe hell eventually burns out still have the problem that an all-wise God, who is more loving than any human, could think of no better way to dispose of sin than to burn sinners, even though they are His children stillthe creation of His own hand. If burning humans alive is inherently evil, then would it not be as evil an act for God as it would be for humans? And God, as Christianity wishes to present Him, is not evil. Yet, evil is evil because it is evil. God's alleged participation in it does not sanctify it. The idea of hell fire, to many, constitutes another puzzling piece in Christianity's picture of God. Is There Any Word From the Lord? The past 100 years have seen almost miraculous advances in knowledge (see Daniel 12:4). The fields of science, medicine, technology have introduced amazing innovations, many now several generations deep. But until recently that growth in knowledge has not extended to a heightened understanding of the word of God. Christianity has slumbered along, content with its own generally unchallenged orthodoxy. But as the world enters the 21st century, God's invisible church has reason to gaze heavenward and ask, "Is there any word from the Lord" (Jeremiah 37:17). The questions posed above have weighed down God's church from eons of ages past. As archeology slowly but steadily confirms the Bible, should we not also see an increase in our knowledge of the God of the Bible? Should not these questions find answers within the word itself, through the determined, prayerful efforts of Biblical scholars? Thus says the Lord: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, Let not the mighty man glory in his might, Nor let the rich man glory in his riches; But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I am the Lord, exercising Lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight." (Jeremiah 9:23, 24, emphasis supplied)) Our Misunderstood God Some humans tremble to question God; they claim the Bible picture is too clear to doubt, that God punishes because He must. Only as the hand of God personally strikes, they say, can harmony reign in the social order. Who wants to live in a world overrun with crime and evil, where no barriers of coming judgment impede sin's onward march? Without question, Scripture speaks of judgment. "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), and no place in the pages of this work will you read otherwise. But just as clearly, a close view of Scripture reveals God, in essence, crying out to be known and understood. If the surface view is all-sufficient, why would He plead, "Behold Me, behold Me" (Isaiah 65:1)? Why would He direct His people to "Lift up your voice with strength/Lift it up, be not afraid/Say to the cities of Judah/Behold your God!" (Isaiah 40:9). A terrible situation existed in ancient Israel in the time of the prophets. The writings of the contemporaries Hosea, Isaiah, Amos and Micah, reflect the religious intensity of the times, yet God declared through Hosea, "The Lord brings a charge against the inhabitants of the land: 'There is no truth or mercy or knowledge of God in the land" (4:1). The people were "destroyed for lack" of it (4:6). With all their religious fervor, they failed to pursue an accurate understanding of the God they claimed to worship, and their ignorance unfolded into wholesale sin and consequent vulnerability to surrounding nations. There is something about accuracy in our knowledge of God that brings right-doing, protection, power and blessings. This is not God's arbitrary decree, as we shall see; rather, it is a fail-safe default built into the realities of daily living on this planet. We see ancient Israel's failure so clearly, but could we have the same need today and not see it? Might our own picture of God be suspect? Every element of our theologyour religious belief systemultimately expresses how we see God. Life after death, the rapture/second coming, prophecy, eternal reward and punishment, the meaning of faiththe list goes on and on. Try this exercise: List the various points of your religious belief system and analyze them in terms of what they say about God. Do you find Him reasonable? If we find ourselves asking, Why would He do that? Why would He think that way, perhaps our view of God is faulty. In actual fact, God is consummately reasonable, as Bible prophets present Him, and He pleads for humans to relate to Him at that level (Isaiah 1:18). In its frequent Scriptural admonitions to study God, heaven is trying to tell us something. Let's not be too swift to conclude we already understand. The New Testament asserts perhaps even more strongly our need to pursue a better understanding of our Creator. God has given us powerful weapons to enhance our spiritual journey. In a text familiar to most Christians is a relevant and illuminating phrase. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God" (2 Corinthians 10: 4,5, KJV; emphasis supplied). What do our spiritual weapons cast down? Strongholds. Imaginations. High things. All things, in fact that interfere with our knowledge of God. Does this text say that an accurate knowledge of God is among the last things His enemy would have us know? Perhaps we should ask ourselves why. Ephesians 4:13 predicts a time when God's invisible church will come together "in unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God" (emphasis supplied). Does this hint of a misunderstanding regarding the character of Deity, a misunderstanding soon to be clarified? Isaiah 5:12 and 13 speaks of humans who "do not regard the work of the Lord, nor consider the operation of His hands [they don't understand Him?]. Therefore my people have gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge" [of God's character and purposes?]. Hebrews says, God's chosen "always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways" (3:10,11; emphasis supplied). This thought pops up over and over in Scripture. "Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord"; "Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord" (Isaiah 1:18; Hosea 6:3). He invites discussion. He wants humans to take Him seriously, and He is willing to meet with us at any point of confusion, placing on record that He will not reject our sincere questions. "This is eternal life," Jesus prayed, "that they may know You [God the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17:3). Do we truly know God, as it is our privilege to know Him? as, in fact, we must know Him, if we would enter into life. For when sin fades into history at last, God's people "shall not hurt nor destroy" in the kingdom made new. Why? "For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9, emphasis supplied). I have counted no less than 23 Biblical entries specifically directing us to come to a "knowledge" of God, and likely many more exist. Scripture is clear; we have misunderstood God; He desires to be known and has instructed us to make His character our study. God's Character In His People It was so important to God to be accurately understood that He sent His own Son to reveal Him. We usually think of Christ as coming to save humans by offering Himself as a ransom for sin. While that is true, it is equally important and sometimes overlooked that He also came to reveal His Father's character to a fallen human race (John 10:30; 12:45:14:9; Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 4:6), thus underscoring Scripture's emphasis on the need of humans to know God accurately. Why would that need exist, if the world already understood? The majority rejected Him, largely because they did not recognize His Father in Him. They wanted a replica of their view of the Old Testament God of war, who would free the nation from its humiliating bondage to the empire of Rome. What they got was an invitation to a Kingdom that dwelt in a converted heart, an opportunity to be better people, and the Judeo-Christian tradition has not yet reconciled the contrast between God as the Old Testament presents Him and as Christ presents Him in the New. Thus Christ was vilified and crucified as an imposter. Do we not deal with the same questions today regarding the contrast in character between Jesus and the sometimes brutal Old Testament God He came to reveal? Would we recognize our Lord today? Scripture further says God intends to reproduce His character in humans who agree to be so molded. Yet that transformation cannot take place where humans have any uncertainties or misunderstandings as to what constitutes God's character. Whether we acknowledge it or not, we are all shaped by our belief regarding God. In fact, that may be the single most powerful factor in making us who we are. From the atheist or agnostic who gives free rein to sin, because he has no hope beyond this life, to one who becomes a model citizen because he acknowledges that even a godless quasi-righteousness exalts a nation. From the religionist who refuses to carry arms in times of war to the genocidal maniac serving his concept of truth by stamping out God's "enemies". From everyday people going about the business of life to committed Christians pursuing a better understanding of the will of God. All are shaped to a greater or lesser degree by their own thoughts regarding God and eternity. Without an accurate understanding of who God is, humanity serves a false god. Without an accurate understanding of God's character, human character declines. Given our traditional view of God, Christians (like their concept of Him) are gentle and kind much of the time, except when the situation seems to call for gossip or destructive criticism or indifference to human woe or venting destructive emotions or taking human life. Isn't this how we see God's ways? The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for kindness, except toward those "demonized" humans we believe God abhors. If we cause those to suffer, it's okay, we think. Doesn't God do the same? Historically, the "church" has carried the traditional view of God to its logical conclusion, by itself burning the opposition. Religious bigots have bloodied the pages of history with unspeakable crimes, which surely flowed out of their picture of God. Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, "because they have not known the Father nor Me (v. 3). Because Scripture gives so many examples of God's wiping out His enemies, Christians have become confused regarding the interpretation of Jesus' words. They have concluded that when we destroy them, we're doing so as God's agents, but when they destroy us, they are fulfilling this prediction. We see our enemy as God's enemy and ourselves as His sword of justice, because for war to occur in the first place the warriors must be made to see their cause as righteous and the enemy's as evil. Yet is it not possible that Jesus meant that wherever people kill each other in the name of religion, neither side bears the signet of the living God? It takes little imagination to see that the traditional view of God as One who can reach a point where He employs deadly force could lead to deplorable conditionswhere political power could be seen as a divine mandate to force the conscience of the politically weak. In czarist Russia, as well as pre-revolutionary France, for example, the church's connection with civil power engendered terrible abuses, causing an over-correction, which ended in atheistic regimes. Communism itself began as a protest against religious cruelty. The Holocaust is a modern case in point, where a strong tradition of Judeo-Christian ethics didn't stop good and civilized people from supporting a regime which derived its power from the spilled blood of the governed and which attempted to exterminate an entire race perceived as undeserving of mercy. Where was the outrage, the conviction that causing the death of humans was intrinsically wrong? Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Bosnia, Kosovo further illustrate the passion with which each side, believing it carries the flag of God in a righteous cause, kills and maims innocent civilians and destroys its own homeland in a seemingly endless bloodletting, presumably praying for the blessing of their fierce, nationalistic God before sallying forth on their missions of destruction. There are no wars bloodier than religious wars. Efforts to bring stability to such regions find religious fervor an almost impossible hurdle to overcome, politically generated peace accords notwithstanding. And who can say if our traditional view of God as a destroyer has not in many ways encouraged the widespread secularization of our world, as thoughtful men and women see all this and note its inconsistency with mercy and justicehallmark attributes of the Christian God of whom they have been told. History offers an inexhaustible supply of illustrations of the subtle and pernicious effects the traditional view of a destroying God has had on civilization. It has opened the door to injustice and persecution throughout time; paved the way for intolerance, bigotry and the imposing of religious laws and duties upon an unconvinced people. If God can use force to get attention, the logic runs, then believers may use similar tactics to do his work. Civilizations do not rise higher morally than their concept of Deity. "Ye are of your father . . . ," Said Jesus, "and the works of your father ye will do" (John 8:44, KJV). And history confirms it. Without a settled conviction that hurting and destroying others is inherently wrong, society positions itself over an ethical bottomless pit, with no protective absolutes to break its moral fall. Where shall we find a model for such settled conviction, if we cannot find it in God? Coming To God But aside from the profound affect our view of God has upon character, both individual and national, for the Christian, other compelling reasons exist to study God. The quality of our prayer life, for example, depends largely upon the concept of God we bring to our communion with him. If we believe his justice never preempts his love, with what confidence we may come before him! From our prayer closet we emerge prepared to enter into all of life's experiences, assured that nothing can happen over which the God of love does not exercise absolute control. How easy we find it then to praise Him in all things, knowing "all things work together" for our good, because God really is Love, after all. And, finally, there is this from the apostle John. "Beloved, now are we children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure" (1 John 3:2,3). And this purity, the character transformation enjoined in Scripture, occurs only as the result of knowing and loving a God who is Himself love personified and therefore worthy of our love and imitation. Calvary argues eloquently in favor of His being such a God, but what do we do with that Biblical eternal fire? While both history and surface Scripture represent God as a destroyer, the nagging questions suggest there is more to understand. Could He be talking "apples" while we're talking "oranges"? Scripture tells of a time when "darkness shall cover the earth, and deep darkness the people" (Isaiah 60:2). Surely our world today is dark through misunderstanding God. His ways have appeared dark to us. For all the love attributed to Him in Scripture, how are we to understand those moments when agape gives way to unspeakable wrath? Could love find no better way to pay the wages of sin? God must deal with it, and He will. But how? The surprising Bible answer frees God from any blame whatever in the death of the unsaved and reveals him exactly like our perfect and perfectly harmless Lord Jesus (Hebrews 7:26). Come with me now, on a journey through God's word, as we revisit the scenes of so many of the ages-old, mysterious judgments of God. As we push back the clouds of confusion that surround what appears to be His destructive side, we will know as never before that "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). In the days of Christ those who opposed Him exhibited the spirit of intolerance and tried to silence Him. That same spirit often lives today wherever new thoughts threaten long-established views. Some bitterly condemn that which disturbs their preconceived ideas. But those with open minds, who persevere, who evaluate the consistency and Scriptural basis of this new model before allowing such prejudice to close their mind will be rewarded and, as others before them, will surely receive it with joy. And beyond the joy of a clearer picture of God lies another revelation, charged with solemn implications for our world today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 This is a good exploration of the problems with fundamental belief systems today. Unfortunately the idea that the Bible has reasonable answers to these problems is misguided. There very problems noted in this article are caused by rationales from the Bible itself. If we can see the Bible for what it is; men's ideas of what God is, and not God's idea of what God is, we would go much farther in the exploration of spirituality and who God is. If we really believe that truth is determined by one's fruits, not one's doctrines, books they believe in, or any other distraction, we can place written words in their proper perspective. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 30, 2005 Author Share Posted July 30, 2005 Here's more: "In order to understand how God intends to deal with sin, we must look at how He dealt with His own Son, Jesus Christ, the great Sin-bearer. ....Since Jesus lived as one of us, He also died as one of us. He took my death and yours. Whereas He took the death penalty for the entire human race, most people (sadly and unnecessarily) will insist upon receiving their own penalty. Therefore, Christ's death holds insights into the nature of the final destruction of the lost. God could not allow the death of Christ to be one way and the death of everyone else to be another way and still apply Christ's death to the account of the saved. They must be equal, in nature rather than circumstances. God the Father's role must be the same in both cases. Christ's death was the sinner's death. But God did not come down to the cross and personally execute Him. Rather, when the sins of the world rolled on Jesus in Gethsemane, the sense of His Father's presence began to recede. God the Father now treated His Son as a lost sinner, deprived Him of the sense of His sustaining nearness, drawing forth from His wounded heart the anguished cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:47; Mark 15:34, KJV). ...God never touched Him [Christ] in cruel violence. Rather, He withdrew from His Son (now Sin Personified) and released Him into the hands of the destructive forces surrounding Him. Those forces had followed Christ from His earliest moments but always without success until now, when God "made Him to be sin for us" and let Him go. Who Delivered Christ to Die? Christ tried to share this prospect with His disciples and thus prepare them for the approaching crisis. "For He taught His disciples and said to them, 'The Son of Man is being delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him.'" "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they will condemn Him to death" (Mark 9:31; 10:33). Who was "delivering" Him? Judas certainly planned to, but Jesus did not refer to him. The apostle Paul makes clear who "delivered" Him up: "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32, KJV; Romans 4:24, 25). It was the Father who delivered Him (or released Him) to the destructive forces around Him. (See also Matthew 26:2, 14, 15; 27:18; Mark 10:33, 34; 14:10; 15:1, 11; Luke 22:4; Acts 2:23.) Significantly, Pilate also "delivered" Christ to be crucified. But not before our Lord informed the proud ruler he would have no power to do this if God did not allow it (John 19:11). There can be no question that God's role in the punishment of the Sin-bearer was to withdraw and hand him over or release him to the power of destruction, but not to perform the execution itself. . . . Even though He says He did! ....In Isaiah 53, universally accepted within Christendom as a Messianic prophecy, Scripture says, "Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted" (v. 4). Does God consider the removal of Himself from humans as an act of aggression against them? Christ, the corporate human, died when God withdrew from Him and released Him to destruction. Yet God insists He "struck" His Son. Is this how God strikes? By withdrawing and releasing humans to the destructive forces around them? Would this model fit other situations? And if it would, why would God choose to describe Himself as the agent of execution? Jerusalem Destroyed In searching Christ's life for clues of God's role in the punishment of sinners, we find one incident particularly meaningful. For centuries God had sent prophets to Israel to warn them of the consequences of their entrenched rebellion against heaven and to plead with them to repent. But, as Christ sat upon a colt on Olivet's brow one of the last evenings before His death, He looked out over the beautiful city of Jerusalem and wept, because He knew the people would shortly seal their centuries-long rejection of heaven through His own crucifixion. He saw the armies of Titus besiege the city some forty years hence, saw indescribable woe descend upon the people, saw the temple of God in flames unquenchable through any human effort. And He saw more. He knew the interplay of invisible forces that would finally open the door to this catastrophe, and He wept. His thoughts found expression soon in a confrontation with the nation's religious leaders. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks, under her wings, but you were not willing" (Matthew 23:37). Jerusalem perished when she, through Christ's crucifixion, abandoned connection with God. The symbol of a protecting parent bird, usually an eagle, spreading wings over its young, abounds in Scripture, denoting the relationship between God and His people and their dependence upon the heavenly provision available only in that connection. It is perhaps the nearest heaven can come to describing invisible realities in human language. But it is by no means the only symbol in Scripture clearly representing this same truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 6, 2006 Author Share Posted May 6, 2006 Forsaken of God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Even when He [God] is burning sinners to leave them neither root or branch it will be His love at it's best. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Until the Christian church stops perverting God's agape love with human ideas of love it will never experience genuine love within its community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, [:"Red"]"because they have not known the Father nor Me [/](v. 3). Because Scripture gives so many examples of God's wiping out His enemies, Christians have become confused regarding the interpretation of Jesus' words. They have concluded that when we destroy them, we're doing so as God's agents, but when they destroy us, they are fulfilling this prediction. We see our enemy as God's enemy and ourselves as His sword of justice, because for war to occur in the first place the warriors must be made to see their cause as righteous and the enemy's as evil. Yet is it not possible that Jesus meant that wherever people kill each other in the name of religion, neither side bears the signet of the living God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Hi Rob I only have a minute and this may have been brought up but I don't know since I haven't read all repsonses. You said, </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> To keep it simple, God has never destroyed anyone nor will He destroy anyone without having pleaded with them and warned them. If He were cruel He would have destroyed Satan and his followers immediatly without warning. Likewise the same for those who cling to Satan and do not want to be saved. But He is long suffering not willing for any to perish. God has made a statement and that is; He will destroy Satan and his angels, sin. All who will cling to sin will be destroyed with it(sin leads to death anyway, He has slowed the process for our sakes) He has said this in no uncertain terms. If I advertise for 1 month no let's say 10 years, to people that I am going to burn my fields in order to clear it and build houses for my children and someone parks their car or tractor on my property and I set it on fire who fault is it when they loose their stuff? Certainly not mine, they had ample warning to move their stuff and I would have helped them. There comes a time when the actions of the promise must take place else God's word is of no effect. Got to run I'll try to pick up later Have a great Sabbath, Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Norman said:God has made a statement and that is; He will destroy Satan and his angels, sin. All who will cling to sin will be destroyed with it (sin leads to death anyway, He has slowed the process for our sakes) He has said this in no uncertain terms. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Okay...this leads to serving God out of fear; something EGW said was a worthless religion. The Bible states that "the wages of sin is death." It doesn't say that God brings death. Sin brings death, that is why you and I are dying...we are sinners even while we are maturing. Yes, one day this earth will become a sphere of fire, but to say God does it is sickening (I'm not calling you sick). We need God...we need His righteousness...we need His protection...we need His Spirit to progress in our Christian walk, but when one persistently tells God to get out of his life, God - being love - will leave that person. The results? Death, but not by God. This planet is ravaged because mankind, out of his greed, is destroying it. The seven last plagues will be caused by mankind's sins upon mother earth. Nature itself is rebelling. Yes, there'll be a lake of fire, but who causes it? Yes, God assumes the responsibility since He is sovereign, but in the Day of Atonement God will place the blame where it really belongs: On Satan and his brand of "self." Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleverdics Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 The Mind of God, who am I to even discuss it. I used to delve so deep into these theological themes that I literally became an atheist. I would have gone as far as saying that God was responsible for sin, from logic (God created Lucifer knowing that He would fall and would bring mankind into sin). I than had to console myself that God had a reason, a purpose for this whole scenario. But truely, going down the road of theology, man trying to fathom the mind of God, can lead to shear dispare. I have learnt that the simple path, sitting at Jesus feet, is the safest and the strongest place to live. I dare not venture down these paths any longer. Quote Being Christian is really simple. Look after your family and your mates, feel sorry for the idiots and leave the rest up to God. She'll be right mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> everyday said:The Mind of God, who am I to even discuss it. I used to delve so deep into these theological themes that I literally became an atheist. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Then why does the Bible say? Phil 2:5 Let this mind [His mindset] be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a slave, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Jesus came to represent the Father's love. At the cross we see God's true love: We see a man [Jesus] willing to be eternally separated from His Father in order that His enemies might take His place. How could a God whom exhibits no self-interests and self-love - a God whose overwhelming ambition is for your welfare - kill/murder His stiff-necked children? He doesn't! They bring disaster upon themselves from a world saturated in self-seeking and its natural consequences. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> But truly, going down the road of theology, man trying to fathom the mind of God, can lead to shear despair. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No, believing God is anything like sinful human beings leads to utter, despair and depression! </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> I have learnt that the simple path, sitting at Jesus feet, is the safest and the strongest place to live. I dare not venture down these paths any longer. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Who is Jesus? Look at His life [from the Bible] and you will come to the same conclusion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Hi Rob, You said </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Okay...this leads to serving God out of fear; <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Not really and here's why. You can't have two masters, in other words a person cannot serve God out of fear and faith at the same time it is not possible. here's John for proof 1Jo 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear : because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.19 We love him, because he first loved us." Just because you have a warning or a threat from it doesn't lead us to serve God from fear. Why? Because when you have chosen to believe the love of God towards you, you cannot live in fear of Him because you know He has a place for you and is coming to get you. If you are afraid of Him destroying you and serve Him out of fear then His love for you, displayed at the cross, has not reached your heart or you have chosen to not believe it. Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." With that as the motivating factor, the love of Christ compels us to serve Him, worship and love Him. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. We should have no fear of death or the judgement because, Jam 2:13 "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." God's children will have mercy and as a result we look forward to the judgment and will rejoice in it. The point I am trying to make is that a God who gave His Son to reveal His love towards us can also be the same God who will destroy the wicked and pour out the last plagues on the rejectors of His mercy. But this is the key to understanding that. He has given a warning and has told us that He will destroy the earth Satan and those who cling to sin. When anyone has a warning and ignores it then all the responsiblity falls on them not God. Therefore this makes Him just and loving. He is waiting for all to come to repentance but knows that not all will. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> The Bible states that "the wages of sin is death." It doesn't say that God brings death. Sin brings death, that is why you and I are dying...we are sinners even while we are maturing. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This is correct but this is not what I am talking about. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The destruction (lake of fire) comes to those who reject Christ, not those who sin and have to receive the wages of sin. (Although unless they accept Christ they will be there as well because this is what happens to those who reject life eternal) They receive death and not life, that is their wages or payment. God is the only one who can destroy them because He holds their souls (life force) and they must die the 2nd death. And apparently fire is God's method of doing this. Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. God can kill and still be within His law. Why do I say this? It is because of mercy and justice. Mercy in that the wicked would actually rather die than to live with God (There by God gives them what they want) and justice in that they are taking on the just punishment rejecting Jesus and refused to let Jesus be their life. 1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. God cannot let them live as sin would be introduced into His kingdom at some place and at some time. God must therefore destroy them because He can only perfectly remove this from the universe. Angels cannot do this nor can man only God and He must in order for sin and sinner to be no more. The destruction of the wicked is a delibirate act of God for the good of all. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> This planet is ravaged because mankind, out of his greed, is destroying it. The seven last plagues will be caused by mankind's sins upon mother earth. Nature itself is rebelling. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This is not what the Bible says. Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Think this through and let me know what you think. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 3, 2006 Author Share Posted June 3, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Norman said:Think this through and let me know what you think. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I have and I must reject your view [not you] because it is inconsistent with God's love revealed at the cross in Jesus Christ. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> We have to understand this statement within the framework of the gospel (as we should all Scripture). Here are two powerful hints: Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son,born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. To be "under law" is to be under God's wrath. The minute we place human attributes on God's divinity we make Him all too much like one of us. Then what is God's wrath? Go to Romans 1:21 For although they [the Gentiles] knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up... If you read on you will see that God abandoned the unbelieving Gentiles. Why? Again, He cannot force Himself on those who persistently reject their need of Him. That includes His protection. Now back to the two quotes from Galatians. Paul tells us that Christ became a curse for us because, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." What does that mean? Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) What does that mean? Under the law (the terms of the law) if a man committed adultery he could go to his knees and say, "Father forgive me"! But if He committed a sin worthy of the 2nd death he had no hope of being resurrected. He was abandoned (accursed) of God. Now what happened at the cross? Right, Jesus as man took God's curse! Did God smack Jesus around? No! Did God have Jesus nailed to a tree? No! Did Jesus get the Romans to abuse Christ? No! Then what did God do that constitutes God's wrath? Go to Matt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”....50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His life. What did God do? He "gave up" Christ...He abandoned Him. When God left Him the hope of the resurrection forsook Christ. That's God's wrath...He leaves you because you have persistently rejected Him. So I have established that the 2nd death is the curse of the law or God's wrath. He gives you up...He gives you over to destruction. Now, what about those who persistently reject their need of Christ? Right, they remain "under the law" - under it's curse. And the curse of the law is goodbye to life forever. In other words God has abandoned you forever and you can forget any hope of a resurrection. Since Christ took our curse...and since God didn't touch Him, then legally speaking (i.e., to be just/fair) God must do the same to those who have rejected Him. Go to Revelation 20:14 -- "This is the second death, the lake of fire." What kills the unbelievers? Right, "the lake of fire"! Why is it "the 2nd death"? No resurrection! People have been burnt to death, but that's not the 2nd death. Why? There's the promise of the resurrection to those who believe. How does this death occur? To answer this we must look at God's dealings with Christ, who became sin for us. Did God beat Christ...did God crucify Christ...did He spit on Him? No. He abandoned Him! Justice demands that God be consistent. If God's wrath against sin [Christ as man] was abandoning Him, then the same must be true of the unbeliever. As EGW states God kills no man...man destroys himself. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 4, 2006 Author Share Posted June 4, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> What did God do? He "gave up" Christ...He abandoned Him. When God left Him the hope of the resurrection forsook Christ. That's God's wrath...He leaves you because you have persistently rejected Him. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Here are some examples of God abandonment because of unbelief: Miriam So the anger of the Lord [His wrath] was aroused against them, [and He made Miriam leprous. No,] and He departed. And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow (Numbers 12:9,10). Sodom and Gomorrah "Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves " (Isaiah 3:8,9). Most revealing, however, is a familiar reference often quoted to depict the pain God feels at the death of sinners. How can [:"blue"]I give you up[/] Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? [compare Mtt 23:37,38] How can I make you like [:"red"]Admah[/]? How can I set you like [:"red"]Zeboiim[/]? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8) Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God abandoned the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, [:"red"]Admah, and Zeboiim[/]. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction. I also see this in EGW's writing: "Already the restraining Spirit of God [His love & protection] is being withdrawn from the world." The results? "Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 4, 2006 Share Posted June 4, 2006 Hi Rob, I want to reply but don't have time now. I'll try to later today, Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 5, 2006 Author Share Posted June 5, 2006 My view is that God's wrath is passive. We can't think of "wrath" in human terms. God retreats from those who persistently reject Him. The terrible things that happen are because God is not present. Natural catastrophes; wars and bloodshed; diseases; famines, etc...Sometimes are the results of ungodliness. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 What do you think, Norman? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 23, 2006 Author Share Posted July 23, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Robert said:Until the Christian church stops perverting God's agape love with human ideas of love it will never experience genuine love within its community. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I'm Waiting on you Shane....Let's go with your idea that God kills. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 9, 2006 Author Share Posted September 9, 2006 To all: Have you noticed how many have read and/or participated in this discussion? So far 6142! Apparently (and I didn't realize it) this subject is very important! Makes sense to me! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted September 9, 2006 Share Posted September 9, 2006 Ahh, so that's what was going on in the summer of 2004. Makes sense now. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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