Examining God’s character – His attributes....

[Robert]

The wisdom you express does not recognize all of the Word as agreeing with itself.

So you have no explanation? The truth is God doesn't kill/murder or whatever evil anyone might attribute to Him. I like what EGW said concerning the advancement of truth:

• "The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what."

[LifeHiscost]

So you have no explanation?

I have an explanation that I understand from the Word. However that alone does not make it true.

To give an illustration that I find acceptable for me to see the reasonableness of God, I would like to suggest the point where President Harry Truman made the decision to drop the "bomb" on Japan.

Did he actually drop it in person? The answer being obvious, he did have a placard on his desk that read, "The Buck Stops Here".

There were probably many people that day, who yielded up their lives though innocent of any complicity in either Hirohito's or Truman's politics. Was murder or killing justified or perpetrated that day by either Truman or Hirohito? You judge! The nation you lived in would probably give you the answer you wished to believe. Nevertheless, Truman said, "The Buck Stops Here".

So it is with God. He's Sovereign. He's in charge. And He repeats in principle, "The Buck Stops Here".

If we deny the loss of life as a result of that fact, we deny God's Sovereignty. While I do not understand the secret things of God, such as, "Why did He create satan when He knew satan would eventually cause the death of billions"?, I do believe God is Love and I find no fault in Him. And I also believe that He permits nothing to enter His universe without a need for it, though He could have many years ago, put an end to the constant misery of this sick and dying planet.

The only reason I need to place my full confidence in Him is based on what He has provided for me and those I love who are willing to accept His provision.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:14-17 KJV

Regards!

[Nicodema]

I have an explanation that I understand from the Word. However that alone does not make it true.

Would that every Christian could be this humble and real about his faith and understanding of God -- instead of selfishly browbeating others with it and equating one's own conclusions on a matter with God's absolute and perfect truth.

[Robert]

To give an illustration that I find acceptable for me to see the reasonableness of God, I would like to suggest the point where President Harry Truman made the decision to drop the "bomb" on Japan. Did he actually drop it in person? The answer being obvious, he did have a placard on his desk that read, "The Buck Stops Here".

As you said, "Harry Truman made the decision" to bomb Japan. To compare how sinful human beings react with how God reacts, borders on blasphemy. Placing human attributes onto God is to degrade God to our level.

Rob

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Placing human attributes onto God is to degrade God to our level.

And that is what the old testment authors did. They made God out to be angry, vengeful, murderous, etc. The New Testament paints a different picture. Humans conceptions of God change.

Some try to put Him in a box, tie it up and set down on the lid. Our conception of God (as 21st century Christians) may be just as off-track as that of any "heathen's" conception of God.

He is so far beyond us that we cannot describe Him. He is the ONE. He is the All. He is pure Being. Beyond that one what can one say?

[LifeHiscost]

Placing human attributes onto God is to degrade God to our level.

Rob

Having avoided the issue of whether God takes life away from some of those of His creation, I would like to pursue your tack.

Truman knew that an assault against the island of Japan with "boots on the ground" would take millions of American lives, not to mention the slaughter of a vast majority of the Japanese population, many of them innocent of any of the politics of WWII. Truman chose the path of a few hundred thousand lives of the then enemies of the USA, with minimal loss of American lives, thereby saving millions of lives in both countries. Was this a decision made in heaven?

"...Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,

nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish."

Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,

and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." John 11:49-52 NASB

It is common to believe that God only uses the "Holy ones" to tell the truth. However I find that He uses whomsoever He wishes, to honor

His holy name.

"For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth.

"For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth.

"But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

Ex 9:14-17 NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Placing human attributes onto God is to degrade God to our level.

##And that is what the old testment authors did.

He is the ONE. He is the All. He is pure Being. ###Beyond that one what can one say?

As to ##___ "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope."

Romans 15:4 ASV

As to###___ "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." 1 John 4:8 ASV

"...keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are."

John 17:11 ASV

"For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

and did all eat the same spiritual food;

and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ."

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 ASV

Keep the Word!

[Robert]

Truman knew that an assault against the island of Japan with "boots on the ground" would take millions of American lives, not to mention the slaughter of a vast majority of the Japanese population, many of them innocent of any of the politics of WWII. Truman chose the path of a few hundred thousand lives of the then enemies of the USA, with minimal loss of American lives, thereby saving millions of lives in both countries. Was this a decision made in heaven?

The underlined is an assumption to justify the bombing of innocent lives. Again, human reasoning that justifies murder.

[LifeHiscost]

Again, human reasoning that justifies murder.

Once again you avoid the issue of the highest Authority in the universe taking responsibility for correcting His creation's purposeful rebellion by removing them from destroying the remaining who determine allegiance to their Creator.

Please give your assessment of who you think allowed the sea to return unto its' place after the Israelites had passed over, thereby drowning the larger portion of Pharaoh's army in hot pursuit, desiring to destroy at the least the freedom of the Lord's chosen. And was it murder or killing, and by whom?

[Robert]

Once again you avoid the issue of the highest Authority in the universe taking responsibility for correcting His creation's purposeful rebellion by removing them from destroying the remaining who determine allegiance to their Creator.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Once again you avoid the issue of the highest Authority in the universe taking responsibility for correcting His creation's purposeful rebellion by removing them from destroying the remaining who determine allegiance to their Creator.

Huh? Last time that I checked there are about 50 plus serial killers at in given time. They rape, torture and murder thousands of innocent women, yet God doesn't stop them....Why?

Here's what I think:

1] If God is in your life then no harm can come your way unless your time has come - meaning God (for righteous reasons) has removed Himself. Not in the sense you have forsaken Him, but because in His foreknowledge it's best if you take a nap. Only God knows.

2] If God is out of your life because you have persistently hardened your heart then you are in the hands of the evil one. If he can use you to advance his cause he'll keep you around. If not, bye-bye. Why? Because, as Paul tells us, Satan is the "god of this world"!

Beyond these vague answers I have no idea. God is love and I rest in that knowledge. God is good.

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

As Christ was delivered up, so Egypt was given over to destruction. The evidence mounts that the so called judgments of God are very different from the way in which Satan or humans destroy. It suggests He withdraws, simply and reluctantly, leaving off His protecting duties in compliance with human free moral choice.

Then you are saying that when God told Moses, a servant of the Lord, to raise his rod over the water that the sea might part, it was actually satan that obeyed the command of God, parted the sea, let the Israelites cross in safety saving God's children, then allowed his servants who had disavowed allegiance to God, to perish as he allowed the water to come back down over the Eygyptians?

"Then the anger of the LORD burned against Moses, and He said, "Is there not your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he speaks fluently. And moreover, behold, he is coming out to meet you; when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.

"You are to speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I, even I, will be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach you what you are to do.

"Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him.

"You shall take in your hand this staff, with which you shall perform the signs." " Exodus 4:14-17 NASB

"And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Mark 3:24 ASV

"But Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and besides, I will not let Israel go." Exodus 5:2 NASB

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Beyond these vague answers I have no idea.

And that is the best answer. That's the answer God wrung out of Job.

It is wonderful, however, that we don't have to understand Him to have a relationship with Him. And if we do, then we will know that He is Love.

[Robert]

Then you are saying that when God told Moses, a servant of the Lord, to raise his rod over the water that the sea might part, it was actually satan that obeyed the command of God, parted the sea, let the Israelites cross in safety saving God's children, then allowed his servants who had disavowed allegiance to God, to perish as he allowed the water to come back down over the Eygyptians?

No...I am not saying it was Satan. Look, the OT is riddled with ethical problems when it comes to God. Some can be explained, some cannot.

According to the traditional view God kills not only the Egyptians, but also all their firstborn. Why kill innocent infants? But that's not all. Then God seems to turn on Israel:

Ex 32:11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “O LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that He [God] brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets. 17 When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, “There is the sound of war in the camp.” 18 Moses replied: “It is not the sound of victory, it is not the sound of defeat; it is the sound of singing that I hear.” 19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?” 22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

31 So Moses went back to the LORD and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”

33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.” 35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

[LifeHiscost]

let's look at some Bible qoutes that make God's character questionable:

" Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker--An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?" NASB

"Now gird up your loins like a man,

And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding,

Who set its measurements? Since you know.Or who stretched the line on it?

"On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,

When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

"Or who enclosed the sea with doorsWhen, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; When I made a cloud its garmentAnd thick darkness its swaddling band,

And I placed boundaries on it And set a bolt and doors,

And I said, 'Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop'?

God's Mighty Power

"Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place, That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?

"It is changed like clay under the seal;And they stand forth like a garment.

"From the wicked their light is withheld,And the uplifted arm is broken.

"Have you entered into the springs of the sea Or walked in the recesses of the deep?

"Have the gates of death been revealed to you, Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?

"Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this.

"Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place, That you may take it to its territory And that you may discern the paths to its home?

"You know, for you were born then, And the number of your days is great!

"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail, Which I have reserved for the time of distress, For the day of war and battle?

"Where is the way that the light is divided, Or the east wind scattered on the earth?

"Who has cleft a channel for the flood, Or a way for the thunderbolt,

To bring rain on a land without people,On a desert without a man in it, To satisfy the waste and desolate landAnd to make the seeds of grass to sprout?

"Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew? "From whose womb has come the ice? And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?

"Water becomes hard like stone, And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.

"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, Or loose the cords of Orion? "Can you lead forth a constellation in its season, And guide the Bear with her satellites?

"Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, Or fix their rule over the earth?

"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, So that an abundance of water will cover you?

"Can you send forth lightnings that they may go And say to you, 'Here we are'?

"Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?

"Who can count the clouds by wisdom, Or tip the water jars of the heavens, When the dust hardens into a mass And the clods stick together?

"Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, When they crouch in their dens And lie in wait in their lair?

"Who prepares for the raven its nourishment When its young cry to God

And wander about without food? " Job 38

[Robert]

Huh, you are not my maker and my quarrel is with your theology on God and not God Himself. Besides you’ve lifted quotes out of their immediate context.

Try again,

Robert

[LifeHiscost]

Huh, you are not my maker,

[Robert]

Back to the subject:

So...you actually believe that the kind and gentle Jesus had the sinners of the Old Testament murder & destroy men, women and children?

[LifeHiscost]

Back to the subject:

So...you actually believe that the kind and gentle Jesus had the sinners of the Old Testament murder & destroy men, women and children?

Good dodge.

Murder: 1. the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought. 2. to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice.

Kill: to deprive of life. Kill merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner.

Did Jesus or does Jesus do anything unlawful. No! When He exercises the right to withdraw life from those He has given life to, it is never out of malice.

Even when we see the death of the "innocent" such as the young, too immature to knowingly rebel against God, we only see the sure result of having been born into sin. It is the second death that the servants of the Most High will not experience.

"And...it is appointed unto men once to die" Hebrews 9:27 ASV

"Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Rev 20 6,12,15 NASB

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:9 ASV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:7 NASB

"And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth." Rev 11:18 ASV

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11 KJV

[Robert]

Good dodge.

Murder: 1. the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought. 2. to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice.

Kill: to deprive of life. Kill merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner.

[Robert]

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20 6,12,15 NASB

Quoting from a highly symbolic book of the Bible doesn't help your argument.

[Robert]

Anyone interested in resurrecting this post?

Rob

[Woody]

OK Robert. I haven't read this topic but it does bring one question to my mind after reading this ...

Quote:

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Rev 20 6,12,15 NASB

Are there two books or one. I know there is a book of life. But is there a book of death?

[Robert]

OK Robert. I haven't read this topic but it does bring one question to my mind after reading this ...

Quote:

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Rev 20 6,12,15 NASB

Are there two books or one. I know there is a book of life. But is there a book of death?

You are either under law or you are not. As to books...I don't know. Does it really matter?

If you have Christ you have life. "He who has the Son (by faith of course) has life." Either you are righteous before the law in yourself...or you are righteous "in Christ" by faith.

Rob

[Ellen]

There is a book of Life and a Book of Remembrance Mal 4:16

Now it doesn't exactly say what is in that one, possibly deeds of the entrants.

The saved will have to have something to examine the wicked from - their deeds are all recorded somewhere.