Examining God’s character – His attributes....

[Gerr]

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I often say that God is not above His own law. For example, how can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

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[:"red"]Sorry, but if the premise is wrong, the conclusions are bound to be wrong. Repeating a wrong premise often enough will not make it right.

God is not only the law personified, but He is ALSO THE JUDGE! Therefore, as THE Judge, He has the right, nay the duty to make sure His laws are obeyed, and to make sure that disobedience is also punished. [/]

Gerry

[urijah7]

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I often say that God is not above His own law. For example, how can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

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Sorry, but if the premise is wrong, the conclusions are bound to be wrong. Repeating a wrong premise often enough will not make it right.

God is not only the law personified, but He is ALSO THE JUDGE! Therefore, as THE Judge, He has the right, nay the duty to make sure His laws are obeyed, and to make sure that disobedience is also punished.

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I would perhaps put it this way. We do not have the right to kill - likely because our judgment is *not* righteous. We judge on outward assumptions, indicators, etc. which may or may not be valid.

His judgment, on the other hand, is righteous and true. The Lord judges the heart.

1 Sam 16:7

[Robert]

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I often say that God is not above His own law. For example, how can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

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[:"red"]Sorry, but if the premise is wrong, the conclusions are bound to be wrong. Repeating a wrong premise often enough will not make it right.

God is not only the law personified, but He is ALSO THE JUDGE! Therefore, as THE Judge, He has the right, nay the duty to make sure His laws are obeyed, and to make sure that disobedience is also punished. [/]

Gerry

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What's righteous about drowning those millions of innocent infants during the flood??? Does God delight in torture? If God kills (and He doesn't), then why couldn't He just withdraw one's life force?

Funny, legalism (of which I still charge you) goes hand 'n hand with a hell-fire type god! Your position is of no surprise to me....

[Robert]

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We do not have the right to kill - likely because our judgment is *not* righteous. We judge on outward assumptions, indicators, etc., which may or may not be valid.

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If it is sin for us to kill, then it is equally sin for God to kill! Otherwise God plays the hypocrite!

"The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9:56).

There was nothing in Jesus' life to correspond to a dark or destructive side in God. This no one can deny. Yet the life of Jesus holds insights into God's ultimate plans for dealing with the terrible problem of sin. When spurned or subjected to disrespect, He simply walked away. Where our carnal humanity would wreak a powerful kind of vengeance on our tormentors, He who healed the sick and raised the dead, who had infinite resources at His disposal to deal with any enemy, gave us the example of His gracious habit of departing from where He was unwanted.

It is when God removes Himself that natural calamities are prone to happen. It is when God withdraws that the "deceiver" comes in to paint his attributes on our loving, selfless non-aggressive God. This can be proven again and again.

In order to understand how God intends to deal with sin, we must look at how He dealt with His own Son, Jesus Christ, the great Sin-bearer. Here's the typical point of view:

"I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God" (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

But Jesus' own words give a glimpse of what really happened:

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Mark 15:34).

"He [God] that spared not his own Son, but delivered [abandoned] Him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32, KJV; Romans 4:24, 25). It was the Father who delivered Him (or released Him) to the destructive forces around Him. (See also Matthew 26:2, 14, 15; 27:18; Mark 10:33, 34; 14:10; 15:1, 11; Luke 22:4; Acts 2:23.)

This is how God works....He does not kill - He does not torture - He simply removes Himself from the scene after one's continual rejection. As I said, what kills is the results of sin - be it a world that is falling apart or Satan himself working through the unconverted.

[urijah7]

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If it is sin for us to kill, then it is equally sin for God to kill! Otherwise God plays the hypocrite!

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Actually Robert I disagree - although I respect your right to your opinion.

I see it like this - He's our Father, we're his children. We're a family, and He knows what's best for our safety and growth. Therefore the rules he establishes for us are for OUR benefit.... The curfews and other things apply to us, not to Him.

It is not our place, as the children, to define what rules the Father is to be held to - or to demand he jump through every hoop we do. He is above and beyond that.

I understand where you're coming from, and I see your point.

But if you'll receive it, I believe that in the spiritual realm, the premise you propose is disrespectful to the King of Heaven.

Isaiah 55:8-9

[DaveM1936]

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I see it like this - He's our Father, we're his children. We're a family, and He knows what's best for our safety and growth. Therefore the rules he establishes for us are for OUR benefit.... The curfews and other things apply to us, not to Him.

It is not our place, as the children, to define what rules the Father is to be held to - or to demand he jump through every hoop we do. He is above and beyond that.

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God's rules = God's laws = God's character = Christ's earthly life = love.

They are one and the same. Love is the basis of God's throne. Not only is He my Judge, He is also my defence attorney. God did not kill Jesus. Jesus chose to die. While the weight of OUR sins was on Him, He could have chosen to come down from the cross at any time.

God has a very large universe. Except for our planet, the entire universe is at peace. Everyone loves everyone. No one harms, destroyes, does damage to anyone or anything. All seek only the happiness of everyone else. No is self-centered.

This is the kind of people God is looking. He wants people He can trust to go to the further reaches of the universe unattended and not do any damage or harm. More than that, He wants people who will love everyone just the way He does.

It is not God who puts people in the lake of fire. They choose to be there. He merely honors their choices. They choose to separate themselves from God. Only those who are connected with God can live. Separation means death, naturallly.

Justice prompts God to shut out from eternal life anyone who does not love the way He does. They would be quite unhappy in a universe where no one was self-centered.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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If it is sin for us to kill, then it is equally sin for God to kill! Otherwise God plays the hypocrite!

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I see it like this - He's our Father, we're his children. We're a family, and He knows what's best for our safety and growth. Therefore the rules he establishes for us are for OUR benefit.... The curfews and other things apply to us, not to Him.

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Ex 20:1 Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

Okay - this doesn't apply to God because there are no others gods.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Ditto - there are no other gods.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

God is not going to take His own name in vain....This doesn't apply to God either.

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Now God did cease from His creation that Sabbath some 6000 yrs ago. His rest from His completed work proves that He was the creator of a perfect, sinless world. His rest was initially only after creation. So this doesn't apply to God.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

God doesn't have parents, so this doesn't apply to God.

13 “You shall not murder.

Jesus' whole life gives us a glimpse of His Father's love. Jesus never retaliated - Jesus loved His enemies (when we would justify killing them). He taught to respond to our enemies with a selfless love (see Luke 6:27-36).

The essence of the law is agape love. In fact "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love [agape] your neighbor as yourself.'” [Gal 5:14] Further more Paul tells us that, "love is the fulfillment of the law." He does this in the context of the last six commandments. If God is love (or God = love), and love is the fulfillment of the law (or love = the fulfillment of the law), then God = love = the fulfillment of the law! Therefore, God doesn't kill....The result of sin kills (see Rom 6:23)

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

God can't commit Adultery for He is neither male or female.

15 “You shall not steal.

God can't steal for all things are His (except this world). That's because God gave dominion to Adam and Adam gave it over to Satan. Hence, he is called, "the god of this world." Read Luke 4:5-8 and note Christ's response to Satan’s claim to this world:

5 And he (Satan) led Him (Jesus) up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; [:"red"]for it has been handed over to me[/], and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 “Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours.” 8 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

Note, Jesus didn't say, "No, this is My world." He knew Satan received its dominion from Adam....

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

God doesn’t lie! Next….

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

The essence of the 10th commandment is “Self-seeking” (see Romans 7:7-13). God is the opposite of self-love for He is selfless. In fact 1 Cor 13:5 says, “Love (and God is love)…is not self-seeking.” (NIV) So God diffinitely keeps the 10th commandment.

So what's the bottom line? The principle of love contained in the 10 CC (the last six, for the first four are issues of faith or belief) is what God is rather then something He externally keeps. God is not above His own law of love!

[Robert]

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It is not God who puts people in the lake of fire. They choose to be there.

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The lake of fire (like the flood) is the result of God's abandonment of this world under Satan's ownership. It is a natural calamity caused by the result of sin....To see this, let's look at Sodom and Gomorrah:

"Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt ['bitumen,' RSV] pits" (Genesis 14:10), suggesting some type of igneous activity occurring within the earth's crust. Today "the shores around the Dead Sea are covered with lava, sulfur, and rock salt. Gases escape from the surface of the water" (World Book Encyclopedia, 1954, Vol. 4, p. 1891). Note the existence in this scenario of all the ingredients necessary to destroy these cities in a great fiery conflagration. Bitumen, asphalt, oil, gas even salt to turn Lot's wife into a pillar.

Another name for "brimstone," which Scripture says God "rained" upon these cities is sulfur, a major export of this region today. One need only consider the swiftness with which the ancient city of Pompeii met its doom via volcano to know something similar could have happened to these cities in such a volatile location.

The Dead Sea, in fact, lies in the northernmost extremity of The Great Rift, earth's longest valley, stretching from Syria in the north to Mozambique in the South. According to geologists, this interesting formation resulted from ground movement along a major fault line at some time anciently. Encyclopedia Americana, p. 351, says, "Outpourings of lava formed volcanic plateaus at places along the sides, as well as volcanoes in and near the valley" ("Great Rift Valley." Danbury, Connecticut: Grolier, 1983).

The devastation of Sodom and Gomorrah created a legend for centuries. Like Shiloh, the fate of those cities became an object lesson to Israel.

How God Destroyed the Cities?

"Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Isaiah 3:8,9).

"The punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown in a moment, with no hand to help her!" (Lamentations 4:6. See also Isaiah 1:9,10; Matthew 10:12-15; 11:23,24: Romans 9:29.)

Most revealing, however, is a familiar reference often quoted to depict the pain God feels at the death of sinners.

How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

God uses the name Ephraim as a generic term in the same way He sometimes uses the name Judah, to denote an entire population. No writer could more poignantly portray God's distress at the thought of "handing over" or "giving up" the nation to destruction, as He would one day deliver up the Sin-bearer to redeem a lost race. He compares such a prospect to the time He gave up and handed over Admah and Zeboiim.

Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God poured fire upon the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction.

The depravity of these cities has become legendary, even down to our time. One city, Sodom, has lent its name to a practice clearly abhorrent to God, as evidenced by a number of Scriptural passages, among them Romans 2. The context shows that the apostle Paul understood "the wrath of God" to mean His reluctant [:"red"]departure[/] from those whose ways show loyalty to the kingdom of darkness. Paul in Romans 2 speaks of those whom God gave up "to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. . . ." and "God gave them over" to the natural and inevitable consequences of their behavior. Paul's remarks in Romans 2 address a problem dating "from the creation of the world," clearly including the era of the Cities of the Plain.

Nor does this exhaust the Biblical evidence that God released these cities to destruction rather than personally executing that destruction. Deuteronomy 29:23-28 strongly supports the "Release" position.

God depicts Himself as doing what He does not prevent. As in the case of His own Son, the Sin-bearer, He simply ceased to protect, and the result? release into the hands of destruction. Thus with Sodom.

[Robert]

Let me touch on a point I made....

Paul stated, "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love [agape] your neighbor as yourself.'”

Notice he did not include the first four....Why?

As I already stated - they are issues of faith. If I believe Jesus Christ is the only ticket out of this dying planet, then I will depend on nothing else! I will not make "works" my god...I will not deny my need of His justification of me in Himself. My faith will be in His righteousness...my faith will be in His love. That fulfills the 1st and 2nd commandment.

I will not practice taking lightly His name....Yes, my flesh might get the best of me, but I will hate belittling my Savior and Friend, Christ Jesus. This fulfills the 3rd.

Now this one gets a little sticky...but as I see it, if I believe that God rested from His completed work of my redemption "in Christ Jesus", then I will recognize the 7th-day as a sign of justification by faith and rest from doing unnecessary work (albeit, imperfectly).

As my faith in Christ remains, He in turns helps me with my besetting sins....He works with my stubbornness...essentially He slowly writes the principle of His law into my mind so that I grow spiritually.....

Hence, faith fulfills the first 4 commandments, and in turn God writes the last six on my heart.....This is the N.C.

[Gerr]

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I often say that God is not above His own law. For example, how can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

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[:"red"]Sorry, but if the premise is wrong, the conclusions are bound to be wrong. Repeating a wrong premise often enough will not make it right.

God is not only the law personified, but He is ALSO THE JUDGE! Therefore, as THE Judge, He has the right, nay the duty to make sure His laws are obeyed, and to make sure that disobedience is also punished. [/]

Gerry

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What's righteous about drowning those millions of innocent infants during the flood??? Does God delight in torture? If God kills (and He doesn't), then why couldn't He just withdraw one's life force?

Funny, legalism (of which I still charge you) goes hand 'n hand with a hell-fire type god! Your position is of no surprise to me....

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[:"blue"]And the Judge has no right to sentence a convicted serial murderer to the electric chair?

Yep, no Flood, no Sodom & Gomorrah, no hell fire either.

Like I said, wrong premise, wrong conclusion.[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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I often say that God is not above His own law. For example, how can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

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[:"red"]Sorry, but if the premise is wrong, the conclusions are bound to be wrong. Repeating a wrong premise often enough will not make it right.

God is not only the law personified, but He is ALSO THE JUDGE! Therefore, as THE Judge, He has the right, nay the duty to make sure His laws are obeyed, and to make sure that disobedience is also punished. [/]

Gerry

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What's righteous about drowning those millions of innocent infants during the flood??? Does God delight in torture? If God kills (and He doesn't), then why couldn't He just withdraw one's life force?

Funny, legalism (of which I still charge you) goes hand 'n hand with a hell-fire type god! Your position is of no surprise to me....

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[:"blue"]And the Judge has no right to sentence a convicted serial murderer to the electric chair?

Yep, no Flood, no Sodom & Gomorrah, no hell fire either.

Like I said, wrong premise, wrong conclusion.[/]

Gerry

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Like I said, Gerry, "What's righteous about drowning those millions of innocent infants during the flood???" Were these innocent ones serial killers - is that what you are trying to imply?

Gerry, you are just wrong, wrong, wrong...i.e., wrong about God! You are assisting the devil with his satanic paintbrush in painting a God that makes Hitler look like a choirboy....

[Robert]

FORMULA

1. Because unbelief is chosen

2. God withdraws

3. Results in Trouble

4. Equals His wrath

"My anger [4] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them [2], and I will hide My face from them [2], and they shall be devoured [3]. And many evils and troubles shall befall them [3], so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils [3] come upon us because our God is not among us?'[2] And I will surely hide My face [2] in that day because of all the evil [1] which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods [1]" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

So the anger of the Lord [4] was aroused against them, and He departed [2]. And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow [3] (Numbers 12:9, 10).

[Nicodema]

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Because unbelief is chosen

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See, I have a problem with this from the get-go: unbelief is not always "chosen". In fact, my whole view of salvation versus the alternative is one in which human beings are essentially helpless and powerless in our plight of being lost, sin-infected, doomed. That's why Divine Intervention was necessary at all, and even with the life and death of Jesus we are all essentially helpless and powerless to avail ourselves of His marvelous provisions in any practical sense unless or until the Holy Spirit does His work upon us.

But what do I know.

[LifeHiscost]

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we are all essentially helpless and powerless to avail ourselves of His marvelous provisions in any practical sense unless or until the Holy Spirit does His work upon us.

But what do I know.

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You seem to have a good grasp of our capabilities before God's promises are fulfilled in us. However I would like to suggest two Biblical thoughts that can be taken into consideration for the comfort of the willing.

[:"red"]"There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." [/] John 1:9

[:"red"]"For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has alloted to each a measure of faith." [/]Rom 12:3

It would seem we still need to gain some knowledge [:"red"] (enlightens every man)[/] before being able to exercise our faith toward that indicated by the enlightenment.

Just a thought, but certainly indicating we are not left out on a limb for the devil to saw it off, without being given a chance for proper choice by God Himself. And especially so that we are not held responsible where we have been ignorant.

[:"red"]"...having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent." [/]Acts 17:30

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

Rom 1:16 The wrath of God [i discussed this in-depth] is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 [:"red"]For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[/]

Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. [i.e., as in: I'm a good person - I need no Savior] 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end....

[Nicodema]

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You seem to have a good grasp of our capabilities before God's promises are fulfilled in us. However I would like to suggest two Biblical thoughts that can be taken into consideration

for the comfort of the willing.

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Thank you for your response, which I found useful. However, this also is another issue for consideration to me, what I have highlighted above. I have also found that "willingness" is yet another area in which human beings are equally helpless and powerless, and that even this requires Divine intervention.

To hear many tell it, this is not the case. I am not their judge -- all I can say is, "it must be nice to be so rich." This poor and needy soul does not benefit from such a thing. Whether that is my own fault and doing from the length of time and type of sin in which I have been engaged in my life or whether it is simply the replacement of youthful cocksuredness with mature humility, I cannot say. I do not care. It is immaterial how I got here. The point is, God must either save me here or I perish. I cannot climb the mountain of faith or scale the rockface of the cliff of impossibility to reach Him. He must reach down to me where I dwell, or I perish.

If anyone thinks otherwise, kindly observe that I am not interested in hearing from you because your finger-shaking condemnations do nothing to enlighten me as to how I may be rescued from perishing. Telling me I'm evil and it's all my fault does not point the way out to me.

[Gerr]

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Like I said, Gerry, "What's righteous about drowning those millions of innocent infants during the flood???" Were these innocent ones serial killers - is that what you are trying to imply?

Gerry, you are just wrong, wrong, wrong...i.e., wrong about God! You are assisting the devil with his satanic paintbrush in painting a God that makes Hitler look like a choirboy....

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[:"blue"]Righteousness & justice are the foundation of His throne. Ps 89:14.

I suppose the antediluvians drowned themselves. I suppose the citizens of Sodom & Gomorrah ignited themselves. Where did the hail, the flies, the gnats, the frogs, death of the firstborn in Egypt come from? And where does the fires of hell come from that will incinerate the unsaved & cleanse the earth?

See what tangled theological web you have to weave when you reject what Scripture plainly says? All the hoops you have to jump through to get around the plain words of Scripture?

Of course people bring punishment upon themselves. The responsibility is their's & their's alone! They can plead "the devil made me do it," but that will not get them off the hook.

And what perversion of justice is it to charge the Judge of crime for carrying out the sentence that the criminal has chosen for himself?

Gerry

[/]

[DaveM1936]

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Righteousness & justice are the foundation of His throne. Ps 89:14.

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The terrible loss of life and of Jesusalem in 70 A.D. is a prime example of the way God "punishes" people.

Righteousness = God's character = God's love = how Jesus treated people. It is love alone that is the founation of God' throne. Justice grows out of that love. God must preserve the safety and peace of the universe. Sometimes He must take emergency measures to protect the innocent from harm and danger.

One can find examples like Sodom, the Flood, the 185,000. But these are few and far between. For the vast majority of human history, God simply abandons people to their own ends. They then destroy themselves.

"The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen. Her children had spurned the grace of Christ, which would have enabled them to subdue their evil impulses, and now these became the conquerors. Satan aroused the fiercest and most debased passions of the soul. Men did not reason; they were beyond reason--controlled by impulse and blind rage." GC 28

I Jn 4:7-8: Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (NIV)

I Jn 4:16: And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (NIV)

1 Tim 1:14: The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (NIV)

Righteousness is the foundation of His throne. CH 458

Righteousness is obedience to the law. FW 101

Righteousness is holiness, likeness to God, and "God is love." 1 John 4:16. It is conformity to the law of God, for "all thy commandments are righteousness" (Ps. 119:172), and "love is the fulfilling of the law" (Rom. 13:10). Righteousness is love, and love is the light and the life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ. We receive righteousness by receiving Him. {FLB 109}

The essence and flavor of all obedience is the outworking of a principle within--the love of righteousness, the love of the law of God. The essence of all righteousness is loyalty to our Redeemer, doing right because it is right. When the Word of God is a burden because it cuts directly across human inclinations, then the religious life is not a Christian life, but a tug and a strain, an enforced obedience. All the purity and godliness of religion are set aside. {TMK 118}

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

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And what perversion of justice is it to charge the Judge of crime for carrying out the sentence that the criminal has chosen for himself?

Gerry

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The investigation of the crimes of human history and of the human race did not begin until 1844. The punishment to be inflicted will be decided during the 1000 years. The administering of the punishment comes at the end of the 1000 years.

This is the only time when God can be pictured as the Judge. He is not the jury. We are.

In this life, no one receives true justice for what he does. Sin is not punished in this life. Mafia leaders can live to a very old age. The mother of three children and a Christian is killed in a car accident. Is this punishing sin? Even Jesus indictated that we could not judge whether one was a sinner or not by how he died.

Luke 13:1-4

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.

2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?

3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them-- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? (NIV)

The inhabitants of Sodom will live again to receive their punishment. Then what do you call what happened when they were destroyed by the fire? They would all have died eventually anyway, just like Lot did.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and

truth can afford to be fair. [:"red"]No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.

[Robert]

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See what tangled theological web you have to weave when you reject what Scripture plainly says? All the hoops you have to jump through to get around the plain words of Scripture?

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How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of an eternally burning hell in these words: "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . .

"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." Those who believe hell eventually burns out still have the problem that an all-wise God, who is more loving than any human, could think of no better way to dispose of sin than to burn sinners, even though they are His children still; the creation of His own hand. If burning humans alive is inherently evil, then would it not be as evil an act for God as it would be for humans? And God, as Christianity wishes to present Him, is not evil. Yet, evil is evil because it is evil. God's alleged participation in it does not sanctify it.

[LifeHiscost]

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for the comfort of the willing.

LHC

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*

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I have also found that "willingness" is yet another area in which human beings are equally helpless and powerless, and that even this requires Divine intervention.

**The point is, God must either save me here or I perish. I cannot climb the mountain of faith or scale the rockface of the cliff of impossibility to reach Him. He must reach down to me where I dwell, or I perish.

***Telling me I'm evil and it's all my fault does not point the way out to me.

****If anyone thinks otherwise, kindly observe that I am not interested in hearing from you because your finger-shaking condemnations do nothing to enlighten me as to how I may be rescued from perishing.

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Re: * [:"red"]"...for it is God Who is...in you...to will..." [/]Phil 2:13

[:"red"]"Keep on asking and it will be given you... [/] Matt 7:7 Ampl

Re: ** [:"red"]"...However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing..." [/]

John 15:5 Ampl

[:"red"]"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." [/]Matt 19:26

[:"red"]"Behold,I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me." [/]Jer 32:27

Re: *** [:"red"]"And He (the Holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment..." [/]John 16:8

Re: **** My personal ability to explain anything of spiritual consequence is nil, without the use of the Word to reveal why I have arrived at those decisions. And that still is of little consequence to the person who may not be on the same page as I am.

The scriptures quoted are not designed by me to convince you of some perceived lack, but are a reiteration of how the Holy Spirit convicted me to set aside my 'wisdom', share the Word with whoever might be able to see it fit into their own experience, as I have found it to be helpful for me to relate to Someone without peer.

[:"red"]"And they overcame him (the adversary) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death." [/] Rev 12:11 parenthesis mine

Blessings!

Lift Jesus up!!

[DaveM1936]

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There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and

truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.

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I agree. What did I say that implied that I though there was no more truth?

There are prophecies, for instance, that have never been fully explained. The last few verses of Dan 11 and Rev 17 are examples. Also, even the "old doctrines" will be seen in an entirely new light when the truth about the character of God floods the earth.

What new truths did you have in mind?

Your friend,

Dave M.

[DaveM1936]

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Those who believe hell eventually burns out still have the problem that an all-wise God, who is more loving than any human, could think of no better way to dispose of sin than to burn sinners, even though they are His children still; the creation of His own hand. If burning humans alive is inherently evil, then would it not be as evil an act for God as it would be for humans? And God, as Christianity wishes to present Him, is not evil. Yet, evil is evil because it is evil. God's alleged participation in it does not sanctify it.

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I agree with this also. But questions remain in my mind that I have no answers for.

l. Sinners (God's children) do indeed die in the fire.

2. God is love. Everything He does is an act of love.

3. Why must there be an execution by fire? What is the real purpose of the fire?

4. The lost are there by their own choice. They did not chose to die by fire, but they did chose to be separated from God. Separation from the source of life is death.

5. What other means of execution could God use?

6. What is the purpose of the agony?

Your friend,

Dave M

[Gerr]

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And what perversion of justice is it to charge the Judge of crime for carrying out the sentence that the criminal has chosen for himself?

Gerry

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The investigation of the crimes of human history and of the human race did not begin until 1844. The punishment to be inflicted will be decided during the 1000 years. The administering of the punishment comes at the end of the 1000 years.

This is the only time when God can be pictured as the Judge. He is not the jury. We are.

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[:"blue"]Dave, study Gen 18, and you will find that Sodom & Gomorrah were investigated, judged, sentenced, & punished. Read also Daniel 5, and you will find that Belshazzar was "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN". He was TEKEL, "weighed in the balances", i.e. investigated, "and found wanting." He was MENE & UPHARSIN, his kingdom numbered & finished, i.e. sentenced & the verdict carried out. In Daniel 7, you will also find that the rule of the lion/Babylon was investigated, found wanting, & it's authority/power taken away. Ditto the bear, & the leopard.

I agree with 1844, but for a different judgment altogether. [/]

Gerry