Examining God’s character – His attributes....

[cardw]

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l. Sinners (God's children) do indeed die in the fire.

2. God is love. Everything He does is an act of love.

3. Why must there be an execution by fire? What is the real purpose of the fire?

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The problem can be solved a number of ways. If we see cleansing by fire as a metaphor for something in the spiritual realm we might come to an understanding of God's love. When we heap coals of fire on someone metaphorically we are using the other persons sense of shame to bring awareness of their harmful ways. This comes from an understanding that evil actions come from fear and ignorance.

I do not believe that God executes people. This negates any real freedom of choice. I would imagine that a person might ask God to kill them if their life came to a place where self centeredness created such suffering that life, even eternal life, might be seen as eternal torture. In this context early signs of suffering could be seen as warning signs that the path being taken is leading to destruction.

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5. What other means of execution could God use?

6. What is the purpose of the agony?

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I would imagine that God could remove a person from existance without suffering. Agony only serves a purpose when it warns of danger. Otherwise it is simply sadistic or a tool to create fear in those who observe it.

The thing that happens when we try to take the Bible literally in every case is that we end up trying to make sense out of nonsense. If we were to follow God's example in the Old Testament and ran our local SDA school the way God supposedly set up things for Israel, we would be horrified. We would have stonings of people who didn't keep the Sabbath and committed adultery. We would set our children out to kill everyone in the local public school and a whole slew of absurd situations all in the name of God.

I would suggest that much of the writing and actions attributed to God were simply ways to justify nationalistic actions of violence and hatred. This is done by almost every group of people throughout history. Why would Israel be an exception? Look at the middle east today. They are using the very same justification for their actions of violence. They are acting in the name of God. We claim the same thing for our actions as a nation. We are acting in the name of God. Its madness and we talk about it as if it were an intellectual problem to be solved. If we would just look to our hearts and the spirit that speaks to that heart, the spirit of empathy, of love, and understanding. The understanding that more fear is not going to change the world.

Many Christians are the most afraid people I have ever met. And it is directly connected, in many cases, to their belief that God will kill them if they don't get their life together.

I am not against Jesus, nor am I angry with Christians. I, like I believe Jesus was angry with what the priests and money changers were doing in the temple, am angry at the ideas promoted in the name of God that enslave people to fear. These ideas are like viruses. They self propigate. And they are promoted by some very bright people, who believe they are doing God's work. And they continue because many do not step back and ask the hard questions with a commitment to following truth, no matter where it leads. No matter if it goes across what we have been taught by our culture.

For me, truth, always leads to healing. For the truth sets us free. I see no freedom in a vengeful God or a God who gives us no ultimate option other than agree with Him or death. I have no desire to worship a God who is so immature and so unable to find a better solution than obey or be killed.

I am not saying that God is this way. And I am not saying that God is not worthy of worship, but this god is not worthy of our worship.

Richard

[Robert]

Imagine this: You have two cavemen in a cave and one is painting on the cave wall a picture of two cavemen, one with a club smashing the other. The other caveman is standing behind him saying to the one doing the painting: "No, No, No...First we invent religion to justify our actions, THEN we invent war."

[cardw]

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Imagine this: You have two cavemen in a cave and one is painting on the cave wall a picture of two cavemen, one with a club smashing the other. The other caveman is standing behind him saying to the one doing the painting: "No, No, No...First we invent religion to justify our actions, THEN we invent war."

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This is pretty funny!!

In reality I believe fear is the basis of war and the justification comes after the instinct has decided to use violence. It is often the victors that write the history.

Richard

[Robert]

"Al-Qaida Group Beheads American Hostage

...John Hayes, a childhood friend of Johnson's, was overcome with emotion....

One of the three photographs posted on the Web site showed a man's head, face toward the camera, being held by a hand. The two others showed a beheaded body lying prone on a bed, with the severed head placed in the small of his back, the clothes underneath bloodied. One showed a bloody knife resting on the face."

Isn't this terrible? It's pure barbarism....

Now, with respect to the topic of this post, what about the barbaric act of stoning a sinner to death - what do you think of it?

Nothing against Johnson or his family, but he was a sinner....In fact that's why these self-righteous fanatics murdered him - he was an infidel. We are all sinners; do we deserve death from other sinners? NO! Only the self-righteous - those he see themselves as perfect - would dare to do this demonic deed. What does that say for the Old Testament punishment of stoning? How do you reconcile this act with a loving God? Imagine being stoned to death! It's just a cruel as cutting someone's head off with a knife.

[Gerr]

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"Al-Qaida Group Beheads American Hostage

...John Hayes, a childhood friend of Johnson's, was overcome with emotion....

One of the three photographs posted on the Web site showed a man's head, face toward the camera, being held by a hand. The two others showed a beheaded body lying prone on a bed, with the severed head placed in the small of his back, the clothes underneath bloodied. One showed a bloody knife resting on the face."

Isn't this terrible? It's pure barbarism....

Now, with respect to the topic of this post, what about the barbaric act of stoning a sinner to death - what do you think of it?

Nothing against Johnson or his family, but he was a sinner....In fact that's why these self-righteous fanatics murdered him - he was an infidel. We are all sinners; do we deserve death from other sinners? NO! Only the self-righteous - those he see themselves as perfect - would dare to do this demonic deed. What does that say for the Old Testament punishment of stoning? How do you reconcile this act with a loving God? Imagine being stoned to death! It's just a cruel as cutting someone's head off with a knife.

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[:"blue"]Do think then that God sinned when He gave the command: "Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed, ...kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey??" 1 Sam 15:18,3 NKJ.

And do you think Samuel sinned when he "hacked Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal?" 1 Sam 15:33 NKJ.

Gerry

[/]

[Robert]

"...and the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.’"

Let's see... Jesus loved His enemies...yet we are suppose to believe this same Jesus had sinners kill sinners? I believe we are missing something here....There's no way to reconcile the Jesus of the O.T. with the N.T. through our traditional understanding.

You must remember that God never intended Israel to have a visible king. What was their motive for wanting a king? "That we may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19). God warned them of the results of their choice, but He did not reject them for it. Did they, early on, desire to wage war "like" the Egyptians? But in the case of their choosing a king, God expressed His disapproval. Do we have a Biblical example where humans defied God's ideal will without His expressing disapproval and also without rejecting them for it? Yes. In their practice of slavery and polygamy, which most Christians now agree were not in God's original plan.

Polygamy was so common among God's people in the Old Testament, examples need not be cited. Again, they thought to be "like" the surrounding nations, even though they knew God's perfect will for monogamous marriage had been beautifully expressed in the beginning (Genesis 2:20-24). But they chose to focus on their visible neighbors rather than on the invisible God, and beholding changed them into the same image (2 Corinthians 3:18).

[Robert]

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"...and the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go and

utterly destroy the sinners

, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.’"

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1 John 1:8 states, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves." So no one is without sin in the continuous present tense!

Yet the One who was & is "without sin" [see Heb 4:15], when speaking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law, said -“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

The point here is that according to the law Jesus could have stoned her. But instead we see a God who does not murder; a God who would rather die a thousand deaths then to hurt one of His children no matter how degraded she had become:

“Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Jesus fully and completely denies the bloodthirstiness of men in committing heinous acts of self-righteous revenge. This says volumes of the Jesus I know....Neither does He act like we sinful human beings in doing the deed Himself. Write that down!

[Gerr]

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"...and the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go and

utterly destroy the sinners

, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.’"

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1 John 1:8 states, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves." So no one is without sin in the continuous present tense!

Yet the One who was & is "without sin" [see Heb 4:15], when speaking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law, said -“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

The point here is that according to the law Jesus could have stoned her. But instead we see a God who does not murder; a God who would rather die a thousand deaths then to hurt one of His children no matter how degraded she had become:

“Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Jesus fully and completely denies the bloodthirstiness of men in committing heinous acts of self-righteous revenge. This says volumes of the Jesus I know....Neither does He act like we sinful human beings in doing the deed Himself. Write that down!

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[:"blue"]OT stuff? Hmmmmmmmmmm? How about this NT example?

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the procceds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.

Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last............

Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter answered her, 'Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?"

She said, 'Yes, for so much.'

Then Peter said to her, 'How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord" Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.' Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things." Ac 5:1-11 NKJ.

Sooooooooo, was the God of the OT different from the God of the NT? Was the God of the OT a vengeful, sinful God? While the God of the NT is loving, meek, and lowly?

Do we have a God as changeable as a chamelion?

Gerry [/]

[Robert]

IF…you have been reading my posts, then you will understand these two words: ”God departed”

Nothing there says God killed anyone….He simply withdrew Himself from self-righteous Ananias and Sapphira. The question is why?

Well, I can tell you that we exist because God exists….When God, who is your life, removes Himself a number of things can happen.

1] The devil comes in and does his dirty work

2] Natural catastrophes erupt

3] God’s life sustaining protection is removed

Look at David's response after Nathan gets him to admit to his sin:

Ps 51:1Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. 13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. 14 Save me from bloodguilt [the death of Bathseba’s husband], O God, the God who saves me….

The question is why did God depart from Ananias and Sapphira????

[Robert]

Here, let me help you….

Look at the immediate context preceding Ananias’ and Sapphira’s deaths:

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

Say what? Go back to Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Now back to 4:33 “With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34 There were no needy persons among them [no poor]. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need. 36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Here we have the early church reflecting God’s agape love. They were fully reflecting that unselfish love among their own brothers and sisters. How did this come about? One answer: They were preaching the genuine gospel: “The truth as it is ‘in Christ’”. The result was God’s Spirit was being reflected in the believers – i.e., they were reflecting God’s love – a love that is not self-seeking. Have you tried having “all things in common”? Why not? You can’t do it – you are selfish. When the Christian community begins to preach the genuine gospel God's Spirit will approve of it by witnessing the power of the gospel through those standing on the banner of Christ and His righteousness.

Ah, but what about Ananias and Sapphira…what did they do so that God departed?

Chapter 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.

Isn’t that nice, they too were reflecting God’s love – or were they?

2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

“Himself”…hmmm? Here we have the true gospel being taught – we have a church fully reflecting God’s love among the brethren and along comes Ananias and Sapphira under the disguise of righteousness. We would call this self-righteousness! This, I believe was the beginning of “the falling away” from the true gospel as Paul alludes to in 2 Thess 2:3. That’s why to this day the gospel is being restored….

[DaveM1936]

"Where is there dignity unless there is honesty." Cicero

In the Christian's life of recovery from sin-sickness, nothing is more precious and productive than honesty. Our sinful natures sometimes made us secretive and devious, hiding our secret sins from fellow chrch members. Our judgments were warped. Many of us may have even taken perverse pleasure in leading a double life (yes, Christians sometimes do this), but we ended up hurting ourselves more than anyone else.

We must reclaim our integrity and our honor. We will begin to feel worthy of love and affection, as we learn to give affection and love to others.

The Bible bids us make an honest moral inventory of our inner selves. Without rigoruos honesty, such a step is impossible. Without doing this, our Christian life will lead nowhere. Only if we are honest can we move toward the truth about ourselves and regain our dignity. At first this will be painful, but each day and each step along the way moves us forward, toward the power of openness and intigrity.

Honesty is hard for anyone. Let us learn to think and speak fearlessly about the real sinfulness of our natures and the crippling effects this hidden disease has on our lives.

Your friend,

DAve M

[Gerr]

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IF…you have been reading my posts, then you will understand these two words:

”God departed”

Nothing there says God killed anyone….He simply withdrew Himself from self-righteous Ananias and Sapphira. The question is why?

Well, I can tell you that we exist because God exists….When God, who is your life, removes Himself a number of things can happen.

1] The devil comes in and does his dirty work

2] Natural catastrophes erupt

3] God’s life sustaining protection is removed

Look at David's response after Nathan gets him to admit to his sin:

Ps 51:1

Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. 13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. 14 Save me from bloodguilt [the death of Bathseba’s husband], O God, the God who saves me….

The question is why did God depart from Ananias and Sapphira????

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[:"blue"]And when the the devil & his angels are themselves burning in hell, who will be doing the "dirty" work? It can't be devil himself. And what "natural" catastrophe could be so hot it melts everything in its path & even burn up spirit beings like the devil & his angels?

[:"red"] "For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29, cf Dt 4:24; 9:3 [/]

Why could it not be a "natural" disaster like the frogs, the flies, the hail, etc. like in Egypt? Or an earthquake like the one that swallowed up Korah & his family?

"Why did God depart from Ananias & Saphira?"

Hmmmmmmmm. I thought you believe that Christians are not in any way obligated to obey the 10c, and therefore could not be charged with sin, and in the case of Ananias & Saphira meaning violating the 9th commandment, & therefore would still be in a state of salvation? So, why were they separated from God except that what Isaiah said is true? i.e. that sin separates from God & hides His face? Isa 59:2 [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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I thought you believe that Christians are not in any way obligated to obey the 10c, and therefore could not be charged with sin, and in the case of Ananias & Saphira meaning violating the 9th commandment, & therefore would still be in a state of salvation? So, why were they separated from God except that what Isaiah said is true? i.e. that sin separates from God & hides His face? Isa 59:2 [/]

Gerry

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They were being self-righteous....

[LifeHiscost]

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“Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you

,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Jesus fully and completely denies the bloodthirstiness of men in committing heinous acts of self-righteous revenge. This says volumes of the Jesus I know....Neither does He act like we sinful human beings in doing the deed Himself. Write that down!

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Two things, Robert. Murder is taking a life with malice aforethought, something contrary to the character of God as evidenced by Gal 5:22,23. Therefore revealing one of the Lord's limitations evidencing God never murdered anyone.

On the other hand killing can be done without malice or evil intent. Take for instance the human act of euthanasia for the purpose of relieving a loved one from the last stages of excruciating pain brought about by a terminal illness. An analogy of life terminated early by a God Who is love, for the specific purpose of cutting short the miserable existence of, by their choice, unredeemable humans who choose to believe that God caused all of the earths misery, rather than accept repentance and personal responsibility for their own behavior.

Also, you have quoted Scripture about Jesus giving the woman He wouldn't condemn, instruction to leave her life of sin, something you believe is impossible to do. Would you call that consistent? Or do you have an explanation why He would ask the impossible and then subsequently punish for failure to do that which He knew, according to you, was impossible from the beginning?

[:"red"]"He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous,

both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord." [/] Proverbs 17:15

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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“Him

self

”…hmmm? Here we have the true gospel being taught – we have a church fully reflecting God’s love among the brethren and along comes Ananias and Sapphira under the disguise of righteousness. We would call this self-righteousness! This, I believe was the beginning of “the falling away” from the true gospel as Paul alludes to in 2 Thess 2:3. That’s why to this day the gospel is being restored….

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Robert,

Why did youj find it necessary to sidestep Gerry's question?

[:"red"]"He who has a crooked mind finds no good." [/] Proverbs 17:20

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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Two things, Robert. Murder is taking a life with malice aforethought, something contrary to the character of God...On the other hand killing can be done without malice or evil intent.

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While there might be a distinction between the two, the act still delivers death. In most of the instances in the Bible God's so called wrath doesn't bring instantaneous death - rather it's a slow, excruciating, prolonged death...it is nothing short of pure torture.

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Also, you have quoted Scripture about Jesus giving the woman He wouldn't condemn, instruction to leave her life of sin, something you believe is impossible to do.

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I have never said that through Christ's power we couldn't overcome certain sins in our life. What I have said is that we will never be perfect, as God is perfect, this side of eternity.

Get a good Greek Bible and you'll notice that the definite article "the" precedes sin. In other words it reads like this:

"Let him who is without the sin [adultery] among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Remember that adultery can consist of 5 sec of lusting in your mind....

So, Jesus is telling her to leave her degrading sin as an adulteress. Imagine if Jesus would have told her to go and be perfect....That's what it means to be without sin.

Guys - try thinking....You're stuck in the box of denominationalism. Think outside the box....Free your mind!

"The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."

[Robert]

What, this question?

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And when the the devil & his angels are themselves burning in hell, who will be doing the "dirty" work? It can't be devil himself. And what "natural" catastrophe could be so hot it melts everything in its path & even burn up spirit beings like the devil & his angels?

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The core of the earth....So what if they are spirits!?! Outside God anything can happen. Satan lives because God lives. If God removes Himself, then yes Lucifer can die.

[Robert]

Is God fair? Absolutely! Then why would a loving, just God react to His fallen, unbelieving children any different then He did to Christ - who (the Bible says) "became sin for us"?

You must remember that Jesus was both God and the Son of man. He was the 2nd (or last) Adam:

"In Christ were united the divine and the human -- the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man."

So when Christ took on his divinity our sinful, fallen flesh He became sin for us - although His divinity (who He is) never personally sinned or knew sin.

Christ became sin - and thus took its curse - the same curse unbelievers will take "under the law". Did God cause Him to suffer...did God kill Him? These questions have huge implications on your view of how God deals with sinners. Yes, we can find those verses that seem to say God cursed Jesus - that God caused Him to suffer in our place. Let's review those:

“I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God” (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

Did God really strike Jesus down or did He abandon Him who became sin for us? In reality the latter:

“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:34).

There’s a very important verse to explain all this….Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Sin (the essence of sin is unbelief – see John 16:9) pays in death. It doesn’t say God, who is sinless, pays in death….No - it says sin pays in death. God, because Jesus had become sin, started to abandon Him in the Garden of Gethsemane. That’s why Jesus said, “While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.” Luke 22:53

If we say “God killed Jesus” then God joined with “the power of darkness”! That is blasphemy to the highest order….Sinners caused Jesus suffering – that doesn’t satisfy the justice of the law. “The curse of the law” is death – not torture. Jesus died because His Father, who is love, abandoned Him to the wages or results of sin.

Because God had to turn His back on His son, sin - that is, it results caused Christ's suffering. When the unbelieving world turned its back on God, He had to retreat. What were the consequences? The earth starts coming apart....The sphere of water above the firmament begins to fall. Did God drown those innocent Children? No! The parents did....Their parents and their parents, parents continually said no to God, so He retreated. That's when all hell broke lose. Just as God (through the prophets) told of Jesus death, He also through Noah warned of His departure. The antediluvians rejected His message at their own cost. Hence, "My spirit [or God] shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

[DaveM1936]

Righteousness = God's character= life the Christ=unselfish love=the law of service.

Justice = impartiality; fairness, being righteous, being right or correct, deserved reward or penalty. It is using one's authority and power to uphold what is right, just, lawful. It is righting injury done.

God keeps careful records of all the harm we have done. He wants peace and love throughout His universe. Those who hate, misuse others, destroy, committ violence take away peace. God would not be fair, just, if He did not right the wrongs done to others. The safety of the universe depends on all its being trusting God to protect and love, to administer punish fairly according to the crimes committed.

Love and an impartial court system which issues fair verdicts are the foundation of His throne.

The fire comes from several sources.

l. Fire comes down from God

2. The fire in the core of the earth.

3. God's very presence is fire. Whenever a Bible prophet saw the throne room, he described God's very presence as fire. One could say that God = fire. Anyone who has not received His character through faith in Christ would be consmed in an instant.

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. GC 673

"When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the Flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, He will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements (3SG 87)." {7BC 986}

Your friend,

Dave M

[LifeHiscost]

*Robert

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In most of the instances in the Bible God's so called wrath doesn't bring instantaneous death - rather it's a slow, excruciating, prolonged death...it is nothing short of pure torture.

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LHC

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Also, you have quoted Scripture about Jesus giving the woman He wouldn't condemn, instruction to leave her life of sin, something you believe is impossible to do.

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**(Robert)

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I have never said that through Christ's power we couldn't overcome certain sins in our life. What I have said is that we will never be perfect, as God is perfect, this side of eternity.

Get a good Greek Bible and you'll notice that the definite article "the" precedes sin. In other words it reads like this:

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Re: * I can understand from this comment why you would believe the Bible duplicitous in its revelations of the Lord of glory. It would appear there are at least three specific scripture texts which you do not hold to be true, although at least one is spoken by God Himself.

[:"red"]"Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, 'The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth...

yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished..." [/] Exodus 34:6,7

[:"red"]"...God is love." [/]1 John 4:8

[:"red"]"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever." [/]Heb 13:8

[:"red"]"I and the Father are one." [/]John 10:30

Re: ** I'm glad to see you clarify that, Robert, as I'm of the opinion that for the most part, as it refers to fallen humanity, it is true. OTOH I do not believe God to ask the impossible of His children. And just because I've found myself so flawed, I do not believe that proves all of humanity will only reach the same low level.

And it does seem by Christ's words, eternity starts in the here and now for the believer, not sometime in the future.

[:"red"]"He who has the Son has the life..." [/]

1 John 5:12

[:"red"]"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." [/]Matt 5:48

Re: *** While the Greek translation may read as you've said, out of the sixteen translations I have access to, none carried that specificity, and it seems to me that if God had wished to carry the weight of that conclusion to His people, in this day and age, it would have at least been obvious in a number of translation easily accessible

to the people desiring deeper recognition of their Father's counsels.

[:"red"]"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." [/]John 14:18

Blessings!

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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God keeps careful records of all the harm we have done. He wants peace and love throughout His universe.

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Then why did He let sin happen....He knew Lucifer would sin. All He had to do was not create him. There's something much bigger going on here. If God allows sin only destroy it then where's this "free-will" thing? As I've explained, sin kills - not God.

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Those who hate, misuse others, destroy, commit violence take away peace. God would not be fair, just, if He did not right the wrongs done to others. The safety of the universe depends on all its being trusting God to protect and love, to administer punish fairly according to the crimes committed.

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Those are human views not heavenly ones. You must remember what Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews (which was injust); but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." [John 18:36]

To be of "the world" is to be under the principle of this world. The principle behind this world is "payback" - "revenge" - but the principle of heaven is opposite as seen in Luke 6:27-31

27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

No justice, no call the police...etc...

[DaveM1936]

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Then why did He let sin happen....He knew Lucifer would sin. All He had to do was not create him. There's something much bigger going on here. If God allows sin only destroy it then where's this "free-will" thing? As I've explained, sin kills - not God.

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Of course there is something bigger going on.

"Satan is a deceiver. [:"green"] [/] When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. [/] This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, [:"green"] the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God.[/] A doubt of God's goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain. And shall we not be as forbearing toward our fellow men as the Lord of heaven and earth is toward Satan? " {COL 72}

"By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible. In His prayer for His disciples He says, "I have declared unto them Thy name,"--"merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,"--"that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them." [:"666666"] But not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe.[/] God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look," and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." {DA 19}

This is the larger view. Could God be trusted? This was the question in the minds of all the beings throughout the universe. Not by force or arm-twisting could they be convinced. The history of the human race provided God with the opportunity to reveal to the whole universe His steadfast love and eternal faithfulness.

Ps 36:5-7: Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep. O LORD, you preserve both man and beast. [:"red"] How priceless is your unfailing love![/] Both high and low among men find refuge in the shadow of your wings. (NIV)

Love and trustworthiness must be demonstrated. This takes interaction on the part of God with His created beings and creatures. We like to take the narrow view that Jesus came to save just me. Why did He do this? In showing, as on a giant screen, what He is doing to save me, the entire universe is watching to see what kind of God they serve. Have you ever considered that billions of beings on millions of worlds are watching everything you do and think?

Most important they are watching as Jesus and the Spirit work on you and in you.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

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You must remember what Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews (which was injust); but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." [John 18:36]

To be of "the world" is to be under the principle of this world. The principle behind this world is "payback" - "revenge" - but the principle of heaven is opposite as seen in Luke 6:27-31

27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

No justice, no call the police...etc...

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I have been an SDA for all of my 65 years. My earliest conception of the final judgment was the meeting out of the punishment that the saints had set during the 1000 years. The length of time one burned depended on how wicked he was. And God did it. EGW quotes were given to the effect that it was in mercy to the lost because they would not be happy in heaven. I think this sums up the standard view.

Now I realize that no one is forced to be in the fire. They are there by their own choice. They will all know that they deserve to be there. Isn't this the main purpose of this final judgment? God will not burn anyone until he sees the justice of the sentence. But the fire still comes from God. While He does it with tears in His eyes, He still does it. But isn't the real concern on created beings' part and God's part that they all see the real character of God as compared with the character of Satan.

Without this phase of the judgment, would there not be questions in everyone's mind as to the fairness of God in doing His unnatural act? All need to see that this second death is an much an act of love as anything else God has done.

Jesus did die the second death and God did not kill Him. It was the separation from His Father that caused Him to die. He died of a broken heart. Sin cannot exist in God's presence. The lost have never been connected to God. They have lived apart from Him all their lives. So they will not die of a broken heart. Do people actually believe that God tortures people? I have never believed that. How does one harmonize a loving God with a God who destroys sinners?

However sinners get into the fire, God sends the fire. I am not a forensic SDA. Nor a legalist.

All theology and experience should be based on evidence. In order to understand the significance of the meeting out of justice, whether in this life, or in the lake of fire, one must understand the gospel and the character of God.

In DA, "It Is Finished". EGW sets forth clearly why sinners die and who is the one who kills them.

"Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches." [:"red"] . . . . This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.[/] He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36.

God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they [:"green"] receive the results of their own choice. [/]By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that [:"red"] His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. [/]{DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was [:"green"] the inevitable result of sin.[/] A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764}

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

Sorry, you cannot convince me that God kills....

[DaveM1936]

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Sorry, you cannot convince me that God kills....

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Unlike others on this forum, I see no point in endless arguments when both parties have made up their minds.

I tend to take a middle of the road position. In the strickest sense of "God kills people", I agree that He does not. However, He is the Judge of the highest court system in the universe. When people insist on hating, killing, committing crimes, gossiping, etc., then He will issue fair and just sentences.

He does not kill, He does not punish. He carries out justly earned corperal sentences. First, the inventigative judgment. God\Jesus decide who is saved and who is lost.

Then the sentencing phase. The redeemed decide what is the just and fair sentence. Finally, the execution of the sentence.

This is God's court system at work.

Anyone who dies during this earthly life, no matter how he died, would have died anyway of old age if he had lived long enough.

I am not trying to convince you. I have no burden to do that. I just want you to understand what I beleive. If I am not clear, I would be happy to expand. What do you think about God's court system?

Your friend,

Dave M