Examining God’s character – His attributes....

[Guest]

As I read the Conflict of the Age series, the very first words of this generation English speaking prophet, The sentence starts with these words. "God is love". After hundreds of pages including 5 books, the last sentence in this book by Gods messenger is "God is love". I submit to everyone that in all Gods dealing with man from the begining to the end hasbeen/was/is/willbe/love. Even when He is burning sinners to leave them neither root or branch it will be His love at it's best. He just continues to get better & better all the time as we remove more scales from our eyes to see His true attributes that was there all the time.

[Robert]

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Even when He is

burning sinners

to leave them neither root or branch

it will be His love at it's best.

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If that's His best love, I would hate to see His worst....

[cardw]

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Even when He is burning sinners to leave them neither root or branch it will be His love at it's best.

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You aren't visualizing this. We stand looking over the walls of the New Jerusalem down on the lake of fire. We observe the lost burning in agony. This is nothing like burning at the stake. A person soon goes into shock and looses consciousness. This is conscious suffering for days. This is the type of suffering that drives people mad. This may be the first time some of the saved would have observed this cruelty in such an intimate manner and first hand. And this is after 1000 years of peace and bliss. Then God decides to expose the saved to some of the most difficult to watch cruelty even imaginable. The medical experiments of the Third Riech pale in comparisom to this spectacle. This is a type of suffering that is even beyond man's ability to inflict. I can't even imagine that the word love would even be associated with this demonstration of cruelty.

This is probably one of the strongest arguements against a literal interpretation of the Bible. This is the phenomena described in the novel 1984 by George Orwell. It was called double speak. It was a propaganda technique in which the government placed messages such as hate is love. To hate those who are against the state is to love them. In this way the government could utilize a word that disarmed shame when it asked its people to commit immoral acts against those it was threatened by.

This is what happens when we don't hold our interpretations of the Bible accountable to our sense of outrage. This is why the spirit of a living God, dwelling within us, is the higher authority for the spiritual path.

One could, and many do, justify cruelty to non Christians based on God's example of cruelty at the death of the wicked. Christians are simply following God's example without examining the immorality of it. If this is how God acts then His children will eventually follow the Father's example.

Richard

[Robert]

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If this is how God acts then His children will eventually follow the Father's example.

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How can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity.

The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of a burning hell in these words: "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . .Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts."

The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for kindness, except toward those "demonized" humans we believe God abhors. If we cause those to suffer, it's okay, we think. Doesn't God do the same?

Historically, the "church" has carried the traditional view of God to its logical conclusion, by itself burning the opposition. Religious bigots have bloodied the pages of history with unspeakable crimes, which surely flowed out of their picture of God.

Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy.

[Robert]

Some have suggested that Jesus came the first time to show the kindly side of God, that when He returns in glory, He will then demonstrate His justice. However, nothing in the gospel record supports that view. Scripture says Jesus is the same "yesterday, today and forever" and that deity doesn't change. (Hebrews 13:8; Malachi 3:6). God cannot and will not require humans to adhere to a standard He rejects for Himself. His commandments form not only the foundation of His government in heaven and on earth; they actually depict His character in words (see Psalm 119:172; Jeremiah 23:6;33:16), as a novelist draws the inner life of characters with the pen. The principle which says "Thou shalt not kill," which Jesus expanded to mean Thou shalt not hate or damage in any way, originates in the heart of God.

Clearly, both the sixth commandment and the example of Jesus combine to reveal a nondestructive God. This is an indisputable fact. There is a consistency, a harmony, an agreement between the law written down in the ten commandments and the law lived out in His life. It is the destructive events described in Scripture that do not agree. Where two descriptions agree and a third is out of agreement, the obvious problem exists in the one that is out of agreement. The present work proposes to take Scriptural stories attributing destructive behavior to God and to bring them into harmony with the two standards of 1) the sixth commandment and 2) the character of Jesus. It can be done.

Reviewing the life of our Lord from Bethlehem to the Mount of Olives, from which He ascended homeward to heaven, we find no evidence of the inclination to force allegiance to Himself, little we could interpret as destructive. "The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9:56). In fact, there was nothing in His life to correspond to a dark or destructive side in God. This no one can deny. Yet the life of Jesus holds insights into God's ultimate plans for dealing with the terrible problem of sin. And far more relevant than we have realized was a behavior of His little commented on up to now. When spurned or subjected to disrespect, He put the class in the strategy of walking away. Where our carnal humanity would wreak a powerful kind of vengeance on our tormentors, He who healed the sick and raised the dead, who had infinite resources at His disposal to deal with any enemy, gave us the example of His gracious habit of departing from where He was unwanted.

[Gerr]

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Even when He is burning sinners to leave them neither root or branch it will be His love at it's best.

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You aren't visualizing this. We stand looking over the walls of the New Jerusalem down on the lake of fire. We observe the lost burning in agony. This is nothing like burning at the stake. A person soon goes into shock and looses consciousness. This is conscious suffering for days. This is the type of suffering that drives people mad. This may be the first time some of the saved would have observed this cruelty in such an intimate manner and first hand. And this is after 1000 years of peace and bliss. Then God decides to expose the saved to some of the most difficult to watch cruelty even imaginable. The medical experiments of the Third Riech pale in comparisom to this spectacle. This is a type of suffering that is even beyond man's ability to inflict. I can't even imagine that the word love would even be associated with this demonstration of cruelty.

This is probably one of the strongest arguements against a literal interpretation of the Bible. This is the phenomena described in the novel 1984 by George Orwell. It was called double speak. It was a propaganda technique in which the government placed messages such as hate is love. To hate those who are against the state is to love them. In this way the government could utilize a word that disarmed shame when it asked its people to commit immoral acts against those it was threatened by.

This is what happens when we don't hold our interpretations of the Bible accountable to our sense of outrage. This is why the spirit of a living God, dwelling within us, is the higher authority for the spiritual path.

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[:"blue"]If the reward of the wicked cannot be taken literally, then neither should the reward of the righteous be taken literally. If there is no hell then there is no heaven either.

Gerry [/]

[Robert]

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If there is no hell then there is no heaven either.

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Hell is not here....Hell is just another word for the earth coming apart - oozing out its core to the surface and raining "fire & brimestone" down on this planet. God, I believe, is holding this old world together. If it was not for His intervention we would have already been swimming in red hot lava. There will come a day when God retreats...then the world will literally fall apart. Whose fault is it? Not God's - He's told to take a hike! Calamity is the natural result of God removing Himself from a world ravaged and ruined by sin and its results.

I have already discussed the judgments of God - the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, etc. Within the environment there already existed a destructive force awaiting the withdrawal of God's protecting power to erupt and play havoc on the earth . To fit the same pattern and follow the same principles, potential for the final fiery destruction must exist within the human environment of earth's last days.

"The indignation of the Lord is against all nations, and His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them; He has given them over to the slaughter" (Isaiah 34:2)

Again, we need to remember this formula:

1] Because sin/unbelief is chosen

2] God withdraws

3] Results in trouble

4] Equals His wrath

Example:

"My anger [4] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them [2], and I will hide My face from them [2], and they shall be devoured. [3] And many evils and troubles shall befall them [3], so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils [3] come upon us because our God is not among us?' [2] And I will surely hide My face [2] in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods" [1] (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

[cardw]

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If the reward of the wicked cannot be taken literally, then neither should the reward of the righteous be taken literally. If there is no hell then there is no heaven either.

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This is not a direct relationship. Saying that something is not to be taken literally doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist in the form of that particular description. And in a directly related item of reference, the Bible itself indicates that heaven is a place far beyond anything we can imagine here. This would be a key indicator that we not take descriptions of heaven literally. Jesus made many references that the Kingdom of Heaven has already come. I believe this to be a reference to the experience of God's kingdom within. Again this is a mystical reference to something that is outside our normal experience and not to be taken too literally.

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

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the Bible itself indicates that heaven is a place far beyond anything we can imagine here..

Richard

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[:"red"]"...just as it is written, 'Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,

And which have not entered the heart of man,

All that God has prepared for those who love Him.'

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit;

for the Spirit searches all things,

even the depths of God." [/]1 Cor 2:9,10

Lift Jesus up!!

[Robert]

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Again, we need to remember this formula:

[1] Because sin/unbelief is chosen

[2] God withdraws

[3] Results in trouble

[4] Equals His wrath

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Rom 1:18 The wrath of God [4] is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness [1], 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [3] 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [3] 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over [2] in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another [3]. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator [1]—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over [2] to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. [3] 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God[1], he gave them over [2] to a depraved mind [3], to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless [3].

[Gerr]

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If the reward of the wicked cannot be taken literally, then neither should the reward of the righteous be taken literally. If there is no hell then there is no heaven either.

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This is not a direct relationship.

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[:"blue"]Well, shouldn't you be consistent? [/]

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Saying that something is not to be taken literally doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist in the form of that particular description. And in a directly related item of reference, the Bible itself indicates that heaven is a place far beyond anything we can imagine here. This would be a key indicator that we not take descriptions of heaven literally. Jesus made many references that the Kingdom of Heaven has already come. I believe this to be a reference to the experience of God's kingdom within. Again this is a mystical reference to something that is outside our normal experience and not to be taken too literally.

Richard

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[:"blue"]Friend, are you willing to sacrifice your means and your life only for a mystical experience of God's Kingdom within? Is that what God is promising? A fleeting mystical experience of heaven within?

Aren't you falling under the same error of extreme literalism only at the opposite pole?

Gerry [/]

[Gerr]

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Again, we need to remember this formula:

[1] Because sin/unbelief is chosen

[2] God withdraws

[3] Results in trouble

[4] Equals His wrath

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[:"blue"]WHO, decides what the resulting trouble is? In the case of Adam & Eve, it was expulsion from Eden. With Sodom & Gomorrah the resulting trouble was fire. With the Egyptians, they were water turned to blood, frogs, lice, flies, diseased livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and death of the firstborn. And WHO decides what the 7 last plagues would be?

Gerry [/]

[DaveM1936]

I know that some do not accept EGW as a valid source of information. However, I do. I have found it a safe rock to build on. Whether you accept as correct what she says or not, I urge you all to read obectively the following pasages.

"Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763}

" [:"red"] This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. [/] He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. [:"green"] God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles.[/] This accomplished, [:"red"] they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. [/]{DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. [:"red"] Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished[/]; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764}

"There is an unerring register kept of all sins committed. All man's impiety, all his disobedience to Heaven's commands, are written in the books of heaven with unerring accuracy. The figures of guilt rapidly accumulate, yet the judgments of God are tempered with mercy, until the figures have reached their appointed limit. God bears long with the transgression of human beings, and continues through His appointed agencies to present the gospel message, until the set time has come. God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. [:"red"] He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy [/] (MS 17, 1906). {4BC 1171}

[:"red"] Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. [/] {GC 37}

Sad will be the retrospect in that day when men stand face to face with eternity. The whole life will present itself just as it has been. The world's pleasures, riches, and honors will not then seem so important. Men will then see that the righteousness they despised is alone of value. They will see that they have fashioned their characters under the deceptive allurements of Satan. The garments they have chosen are the badge of their allegiance to the first great apostate. [:"red"] Then they will see the results of their choice. They will have a knowledge of what it means to transgress the commandments of God. [/] {COL 318}

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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I know that some do not accept EGW as a valid source of information. However, I do. I have found it a safe rock to build on.

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This is exactly why other Christians tend to view Adventists as a cult....Ellen White is not the Rock! Build your understanding on the Bible. While Ellen White has a lot of good to say, she also contradicts herself. I personally use EGW when talking with Adventists....I like them to see those "other statements".

[DaveM1936]

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This is exactly why other Christians tend to view Adventists as a cult....Ellen White is not the Rock! Build your understanding on the Bible. While Ellen White has a lot of good to say, she also contradicts herself. I personally use EGW when talking with Adventists....I like them to see those "other statements".

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You preferece this with IMO. This is a SDA web site. EGW is a pillar belief in our church. I have only two rocks that I base my hopes of heaven on. One is the Bible. The other is EGW. I make no apoligizes for using her in my posts.

Would you prefer that I accept what any person says instead?

Do you feel comfortable in letting non-SDA's attack EGW and sit on the sidelines, being afraid to use her appropriately?

I have no such qualms.

Most of those who reject her have some ax to grind.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

-BC- AY

-TI- An Appeal to the Youth

-CN- 1

-CT- His Mother's Letters

-PR- 03

-PG- 61

“When you (Willie) feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, [:"red"]and will not love you if you do wrong. [:"black"]When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you.”

-PC- BEcho

-PT- Bible Echo and Signs of the Times

-DT- 02-01-92

-AT- Ye are Complete in Him

-PR- 09

[:"red"]”Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong [:"black"]; teach them that he loves them so that it grieves his Spirit to see them in transgression, because he knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them.

If Ellen can't get this right, maybe she's not the best source of understanding God's "wrath"....

Notice how Ellen includes herself in the following:

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed."

Now back to the discussion:

[Gerr]

[:"blue"]So, WHO decides what the resulting trouble is? Is it by chance that it was flood that hit the antediluvians? Chance that it was fire for Sodom & Gomorrah? Natural disasters for the Egyptians? WHO decides that it will be fire that destroys Satan & his followers? Chance? Not a chance!!!

Gerry [/]

[DaveM1936]

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-BC- AY

-TI- An Appeal to the Youth

-CN- 1

-CT- His Mother's Letters

-PR- 03

-PG- 61

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What are these? What am I supposed to do with them?

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“When you (Willie) feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. When you do right and overcome wrong feelings, the Lord smiles upon you.”

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???????? What has this to do with my comments.

Fretful: irritable, discontented, peevish, cranky, restless, sullen, uneasy, cross.

Which of theses apply to me, IYO? I was tempted to get into a "throwing EGW comments around" frame of mind. But I decided not to. I thought I was expressing a principle on which I base my lifestyle. I may have been a bit cross and irritable with you. I was not discontented.

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-PC- BEcho

-PT- Bible Echo and Signs of the Times

-DT- 02-01-92

-AT- Ye are Complete in Him

-PR- 09

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Again, what are these? What am I to do with them?

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”Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong ; teach them that he loves them so that it grieves his Spirit to see them in transgression, because he knows they are doing injury to their souls. Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness, and thus let the glory of the Lord be revealed before them.

If Ellen can't get this right, maybe she's not the best source of understanding God's "wrath"....

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This feels like an accusation. Why did you feel it necessary to quote this. I do not see how it applies to me. Am I to treat those who accuse me of wrong - donig with love and not defend myself?

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Notice how Ellen includes herself in the following:

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed."

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Sound like hit and run to me. Do you have cherished views? Are there subjects that you never change your opinion on?

Still trying to be a friend, not a combatant,

Dave M

[Robert]

My post was in response to this:

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EGW is a pillar belief in our church. I have only two rocks that I base my hopes of heaven on. One is the Bible. The other is EGW. I make no apoligizes for using her in my posts.

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My point? Ellen White contridicts herself....Your infallible source is the Bible, not Ellen.

[Robert]

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[:"blue"]So,

WHO

decides what the resulting trouble is? Is it by chance that it was flood that hit the antediluvians? Chance that it was fire for Sodom & Gomorrah? Natural disasters for the Egyptians?

WHO

decides that it will be fire that destroys Satan & his followers? Chance? Not a chance!!!

Gerry [/]

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Who? Depends, but it is not God....Jesus came to save men, not destroy.

Don't you think God is holding this old world together? What's causing it to fall apart? Not God - but sin and its results....Sin kills....What does the Bible say? "The wages of SIN is death." Sin destroys....

If I go out and have sex with as many as possible and contract aids, what kills me? God or a disease caused by sexual promiscuity? Where did the disease originate? God or a result of men's perverted sexual tastes? Please don't blame God....

[Robert]

The Bible depicts our world as a danger zone dependent upon the protecting and ever watchful presence of holy angel visitors. If our eyes could be opened and we behold the multitude of dangers threatening on every side day and night, we would have a greater sensibility of our debt to God and holy angels for every moment of comfort and joy that we know.

Neither God nor holy angels abandon their protecting duties until thoroughly discharged by their beneficiaries, who, self-sufficient, have never learned their utter dependence upon a power outside themselves, never dreamed that a compassionate Providence undergirded all their earthly triumphs. In attitude they say, as Judah said anciently of Christ, "We will not have this Man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14), never considering that when He goes, His protection goes with Him.

[cardw]

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Well, shouldn't you be consistent?

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Consistant with what? How can you be consistant with a shadow?

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Friend, are you willing to sacrifice your means and your life only for a mystical experience of God's Kingdom within? Is that what God is promising? A fleeting mystical experience of heaven within?

Aren't you falling under the same error of extreme literalism only at the opposite pole?

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I have not defined what heaven is or isn't. I am saying that heaven or hell is not what we say they are since they are beyond any human imagination or discription.

If I say that you are ignorant? It produces in your imagination a picture or sense of what you believe to be an ignorant person and you will respond to that picture in what ever way you have chosen. In a literal sense that imaginary picture or sense does not exist in what we would call real life. But I would ask you, in your experience, which is more real? The nonexistant ignorant person or that which you have imagined?

We could ask the same question for each thing we give a name. What is real to us? The sense we feel when we form the image of what we believe or the symbol or symbols we give to those experiences?

When I see a red dress it may bring a whole different set of emtions than when you see the same red dress. Is the red dress real or is the experience it brings up? If we show a red dress to a bull it may have a completely different reality. If we show a red dress to a child it conjures up a whole new set of inner realities. We might ask the question differently. What is more true? The red dress or the experience of each viewer? In reality the red dress doesn't mean anything without a person to give it meaning. And the person really doesn't give it meaning directly. Meaning only comes by association that person has with the red dress. In other words it may be termed as the relationship a person has with experiences in which the red dress was present.

In religion with have many different viewers. Often, each viewer is willing to die for their particular reality and, sometimes, even willing to kill. My point is that we need to stop holding on so tightly to any one particular symbol of truth. For, if there is a unifying spirit of God, then we need to trust that spirit to bring each individual, within their own experience, to each level of growth and understanding.

Richard

[cardw]

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What are these? What am I supposed to do with them?

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I believe that Roberts point was which statement from the EGW rock is the official one?

a) [Tell your children,] "remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong."

or

"Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong."

This is not attacking Ellen White, its pointing out that its pretty difficult to determine her position on a number of issues where there are direct contradictions. The implication is that it may not be all that solid of a rock in the way in which you quote her authoratatively.

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This is a SDA web site. EGW is a pillar belief in our church. I have only two rocks that I base my hopes of heaven on. One is the Bible. The other is EGW. I make no apoligizes for using her in my posts.

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And if you are confident in her authority then one would assume that you don't have to apologize. And no one is asking for an apology. I think the point is that quoting from her won't have any weight for many of us. At least for me its not a reliable source in several areas. I can evaluate her view of God, but I'm not willing to live under it for many good reasons. She is an upgrade from many other views, but she has some problems just as any of us who are limited in knowlege and insight.

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Would you prefer that I accept what any person says instead?

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Nobody's asking you to accept any person. The implication from the post's that I have read and posted is that you are being asked to evaluate the problems presented by rigid world views that come out authoratative belief systems.

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Do you feel comfortable in letting non-SDA's attack EGW and sit on the sidelines, being afraid to use her appropriately?

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No one is stopping you from using her. And far more SDA's have problems with Ellen White than non-SDA's. And we could ask the same thing of you; Do you feel comfortable in letting people attack our views of Ellen White while we sit on the sidelines as people promote what we believe to be a harmful use of her writings. And, to me, any use of her authoratatively, particularly as a Rock, has a high potential of opening people to religious abuse. I don't even use the Bible that way because I believe it to have a high potential of being harmful as well.

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Most of those who reject her have some ax to grind.

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That may be true, but the axe you are grinding is the right to quote Ellen White without anyone questioning her authority because you might be offended in some way because she is the so called pillar of the SDA church. She probably is the pillar of the church. And some of us don't consider that a good thing.

I am not angry with you at all. I'm simply trying to present to you where some of us are coming from. And you can quote her all you like. In fact, the more you quote her, the easier it is to get to some of the core assumptions of Adventism that have some problems.

I am not trying to insult your belief, I am honoring your intelligence and commitment by talking directly to you, without sarcasm or trying to hide my more unacceptable beliefs. If you can understand what our positions are, you might formulate other ways of communicating your beliefs.

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

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My point is that we need to stop holding on so tightly to any one particular symbol of truth.

Richard

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[:"red"]"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life.'" [/] John 14:4

[:"red"]"And there is salvation in no one else;

for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." [/]Acts 4:12

[:"red"]"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber....Truly, truly, I am the door of the sheep....

I am the good Shepherd; the good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

I know my own and My own know Me." [/]

John 10:1,7,11,14

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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My point? Ellen White contridicts herself....Your infallible source is the Bible, not Ellen.

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There is no doubt in this person's humble opinion, of the use God made of His servant Ellen Harmon White.

As to being infallible? Was Moses infallible? Was the Apostle Peter infallible? Was John the Revelator infallible? Infallibility was never and has never been a test of a servant of Jesus.

Neither can we say the Holy Bible is infallible. But there is no other source given for men to observe in their limited capacity, the infallible God behind these fallible human beings.

We may reject the Word given through a fallible source, but we at the same time reject the Saviour of our souls, and the promises that are revealed through the fallible instruments He chose to use.

All of the fallible human beings in the world cannot diminish His infallible power, nor can the strength of the sages of the ages add one iota to His kingdom.

[:"red"]"...what do you have that you did not receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" [/]1 Cor 4:7

Lift Jesus up!!