Examining God’s character – His attributes....

[Gerr]

Is anything real to you or is everything just shadows? Do you believe the resurrection to have been a REAL event? Is the Second Coming a real coming event?

By consistency I mean that if you are to treat hell as a shadow, then the Bible's depiction of the reward of the righteous, i.e. heaven/eternal life be treated the same way.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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[:"blue"]So,

WHO

decides what the resulting trouble is? Is it by chance that it was flood that hit the antediluvians? Chance that it was fire for Sodom & Gomorrah? Natural disasters for the Egyptians?

WHO

decides that it will be fire that destroys Satan & his followers? Chance? Not a chance!!!

Gerry [/]

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Who? Depends, but it is not God....Jesus came to save men, not destroy.

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[:"blue"]Depends on what? WHO decides that the reward of the righteous is eternal bliss? WHO decides that the reward/punishment of the wicked is eternal death?

"I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." Dt 30:19 NKJ.

God gives us a choice. If we choose life, HE gives life. If we choose death, HE gives death. The choice is ours & ours alone, BUT HOW that death comes about is God's & God's choice alone, whether it be by flood, the earth opening up, or by fire. [/]

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Don't you think God is holding this old world together?

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"They all in Him hold together." Col 1:17 Rhm

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What's causing it to fall apart? Not God - but sin and its results....Sin kills....What does the Bible say? "The wages of SIN is death." Sin destroys....

If I go out and have sex with as many as possible and contract aids, what kills me? God or a disease caused by sexual promiscuity? Where did the disease originate? God or a result of men's perverted sexual tastes? Please don't blame God....

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[:"blue"]Of course I am not blaming God. As I said above, He gives us a choice. What happens to us are the natural results of our own choices. But in the ultimate solution and disposition of the problem of sin, HOW it is disposed of is God's & God's choice alone, and in the end it happens to be by fire. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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HOW it is disposed of is God's & God's choice alone, and in the end it happens to be by fire.

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Wrong....The choice is men's - God destroys no one....

[DaveM1936]

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My point? Ellen White contridicts herself....Your infallible source is the Bible, not Ellen.

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Prove it.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

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Wrong....The choice is men's - God destroys no one....

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You may have done this before; however, please list the Bible texts to prove this. Do not just list the texts, but give your interpretation of how they bare on this subject. Give me a detailed Bible Study.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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My point? Ellen White contridicts herself....Your infallible source is the Bible, not Ellen.

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Prove it.

Your friend,

Dave M

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I already gave you an example....Go read it again! By the way, let's not turn this into proving Ellen....We are talking about God's character here....If you want to - start another post, please....Thank you.

Rob

[Robert]

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Wrong....The choice is men's - God destroys no one....

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You may have done this before; however, please list the Bible texts to prove this. Do not just list the texts, but give your interpretation of how they bare on this subject. Give me a detailed Bible Study.

Your friend,

Dave M

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Dave,

Start reading all I have said from the first post till now....Thanks

[DaveM1936]

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I already gave you an example....Go read it again! By the way, let's not turn this into proving Ellen....We are talking about God's character here....If you want to - start another post, please....Thank you.

Rob

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You brought up the subject. It will not do to tell me to go and read it for myself. If you have evidence that she is a liar, then back it up.

Your friend,

Dave M

[DaveM1936]

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Dave,

Start reading all I have said from the first post till now....Thanks

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NO!

I don't want to read all your posts. If you cannot give a consistent Bible study on this subject of whether God kills or not, then I must assume that you cannot do it.

Stop throwing around unkind remarks. Let's have an old fashioned bible study.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

Start another post on Ellen....She's not a liar, she's human....She grew in her understanding....Instead of having your growth depend on her growth over some 100 years ago, why don't you learn to think on your own? Light should advance....Don't draw a circle around Ellen and say, "If Ellen didn't say it I don't believe it"....Cool down....

Rob

[Robert]

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Dave,

Start reading all I have said from the first post till now....Thanks

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NO!

I don't want to read all your posts. If you cannot give a consistent Bible study on this subject of whether God kills or not, then I must assume that you cannot do it.

Stop throwing around unkind remarks. Let's have an old fashioned bible study.

Your friend,

Dave M

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Better yet, buy this Adventist's book (where I have quoted from numerous times):

http://www.oigc.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1

[Nicodema]

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.... give a consistent Bible study on this subject of whether God kills or not ...

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Does the surgeon kill when he cuts out and destroys the cancerous cells?

Does the doctor kill when he administers antibiotics that destroy an infection?

Does the programmer kill when he annihilates the virus from his computer?

God is in the business of destroying the destroyer -- destroying sin! He has made a way of escape for every one of us. NONE of us need identify ourselves with the 'wrong from the beginning', with the 'macrocosmic Virus of the universe', if we do not want to. An end is coming indeed -- an end in the Lake of Fire -- for the devil and his angels, for all that deceives, that kills, that causes death, that generates sin, that IS sin. Whether we end there ourselves is decided Today (while you hear His voice, harden not your hearts!) -- Today when we decide whether we will accept the gift of Eternal Life, which is in His Son, or not.

The Bible speaks of an old covenant and a new covenant. It also speaks of an everlasting covenant. Within the parameters of the latter are encompassed the consequences built into the fabric of Reality designed to illustrate truth to the wayward soul who insists upon sealing his or her eyes shut. God in His infinite mercy has crafted Reality Itself to reflect His perfect justice and mercy together, so that no one sins with impugnity. We can destroy ourselves with sin if we are determined to do so but there will always be a merciful and loving Restorer pleading with us to Learn and Return. When we are finished breaking ourselves apart in sin and folly we may come to Him and it is His glory to encircle us in the arms of Love, bind up our wounds, restore what years the locusts have eaten, and return us to wholeness and joy in Himself. The eternal Reality we need to focus on is not the destruction that is coming but the Restoration which is always available as long as there is life and breath.

(Just some thoughts -- not addressed to anyone in particular.)

[cardw]

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"And there is salvation in no one else;

for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

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This actually illustrates my point quite well. Which name of Jesus is the one by which we are saved? Is it the Greek form, the Hebrew form, Lilly of the Valley, Bright and Morning Star, God with us, etc. etc.

To hold Jesus to just one name is to limit Jesus to our understanding of Him. To say that there is only one name in a literal sense does not recognize the deep mystery of God.

Richard

[cardw]

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Is anything real to you or is everything just shadows? Do you believe the resurrection to have been a REAL event? Is the Second Coming a real coming event?

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I experience life in a very real way, but any name we give it is simply a shadow. I'll leave discussions on the resserection and the Second Coming to other threads. I'll just point out that there are many, many, many views on these events. Not a real arguement in favor of its clarity.

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By consistency I mean that if you are to treat hell as a shadow, then the Bible's depiction of the reward of the righteous, i.e. heaven/eternal life be treated the same way.

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I am looking at heaven first since the Bible has something to say about heaven that relates specifically to what we are talking about.

I am being consistant with the Bible. The Bible starts out with heaven being a shadow. It states that "...just as it is written, 'Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.' For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things,

even the depths of God." 1 Cor 2:9,10

So if heaven is a shadow, then hell could be as well. I did not state that I believe everything is a shadow. What I did say is that every description, word, picture, etc. is a shadow of the experience. Please don't generalize my comments as a means of discrediting my points. And don't ignore the more difficult problems. Just because you don't address them doesn't mean they go away.

Richard

[LifeHiscost]

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To hold Jesus to just one name is to limit Jesus to our understanding of Him.

Richard

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[:"red"]"Now when John in prison heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples, and said to Him,

'Are you the expected One, or should we look for someone else?'"

"And Jesus answered and said to them,

'Go and report to John what you hear and see:

the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear,

and the dead are raised up,

and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.

And blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me."

[/] Matt 11:2-6 Emphasis theirs NASB

[:"red"]Then He said to Thomas,

'Reach here your finger, and see My hands;

and reach here your hand, and put it into My side;

and be not unbelieving, but believing.'"

"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'

Jesus said to him, 'Because you have seen Me, have you believed?

Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.'" [/] John 20:27-29

[:"red"]"And He himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;

for by His wounds you were healed." [/] 1 Pet 2:24

Lift Jesus up!!

[cardw]

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Then He said to Thomas,

'Reach here your finger, and see My hands;

and reach here your hand, and put it into My side;

and be not unbelieving, but believing.'"

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You know I don't really know what you are saying here. Are you saying that I am doubting like Thomas and that's bad?

You also didn't really quote the parts of my post that were relevant. You totally ignored that there are many names for Jesus.

When you post these texts without commentary they mean little and you leave yourself open to assumptions.

Richard

[Gerr]

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HOW it is disposed of is God's & God's choice alone, and in the end it happens to be by fire.

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Wrong....The choice is men's - God destroys no one....

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[:"blue"]Text please? Is there a sinner that would choose to be burned?

Gerry

[/]

[Robert]

Get the book, Gerry....

Apparently you want a god with your sinful attributes, with your sinful, perverted tastes of an eye for an eye, etc....As I said, get the book....

Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His ascension, that He resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem.

And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village. NASB

[Nicodema]

I will be glad when God finally deletes the Virus from the Universe permanently and reboots the whole system.

[LifeHiscost]

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Then He said to Thomas,

'Reach here your finger, and see My hands;

and reach here your hand, and put it into My side;

and be not unbelieving, but believing.'"

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*You know I don't really know what you are saying here. Are you saying that I am doubting like Thomas and that's bad?

You also didn't really quote the parts of my post that were relevant. You totally ignored that there are many names for Jesus.

When you post these texts without commentary they mean little and you leave yourself open to assumptions.

Richard

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Genrally speaking, Richard, I try for the most part not to tell others what the Creator may be wishing to say to them. It has been my experience that confusion of His will comes most often among Christians trying to get each other to believe the way they personally believe. This might not be quite as harmful when making effort to pass along principles to people who know they themselves don't believe in the Christ, but too often the mind that is controlled by another human being is the same as a pharmaceutical drug, ie:designed and perhaps somewhat useful for the alleviation of one malady, but adding side affects that are often numerous and lead to diseases worse than the initial illness.

That's mainly the reason why I sometimes refrain from explaining what God is trying to get across. I write what He has put in my mind, and if no sense can be made of it I figure the Holy Spirit has no need for my services at that point.

On the other hand if a person is interested in more than just proving how dumb Jesus' disciples are, I'm sure there will always be an opening for shared testimony of God's leading in the personal experience of those who desire to know God and His Son better.

[:"red"]"Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind." [/]Romans 14:5

It would be my pleasure to see you one day in God's kingdom, without threat of removal. But at this time, when it seems to me to be more important to you to argue about the numerous names of Jesus, than trusting in the one name He has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind, it would appear counter productive for me to tell you what God is saying. As to what I believe about you, the only reality important to consider, in my estimation, is what God thinks of you and how you wish Him to relate to you.

[:"red"]"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." [/] 2 Pet 3:9

Blessings!

Lift Jesus up!!

[Gerr]

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Get the book, Gerry....

Apparently you want a god with your sinful attributes, with your sinful, perverted tastes of an eye for an eye, etc....As I said, get the book....

Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His ascension, that He resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem.

And

when His disciples James and John

saw this, they said, “Lord,

do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?”

55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said,

“You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”

And they went on to another village. NASB

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[:"blue"] I have THE BOOK. It says:

[:"red"] "For behold, the day is coming,

Burning like an oven,

And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.

And the day which is coming shall burn them up,"

Says the LORD of hosts,

"That will leave them neither root nor branch.

But to you who fear My name

The Sun of Righteousness shall arise

With healing in His wings;

And you shall go out

And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

You shall trample the wicked,

For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

On the day that I do this,"

Says the LORD of hosts. Mal 4:1-3 NKJ [/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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I will be glad when God finally deletes the Virus from the Universe permanently and reboots the whole system.

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[:"blue"]What an excellent illustration!

Gerry [/]

[Robert]

Yes, and you are looking at the book using your preconceived ideas....Free your mind bent on making God look worse than Hitler....

[Gerr]

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Yes, and you are looking at the book using your preconceived ideas....Free your mind bent on making God look worse than Hitler....

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[:"blue"]Are you evil for deleting the virus in your computer?

"And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Rev 20:9 NKJ

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness.....Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our lord is salvation - as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2 Pet 3:10-16 NKJ.

Gerry [/]

[cardw]

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That's mainly the reason why I sometimes refrain from explaining what God is trying to get across. I write what He has put in my mind, and if no sense can be made of it I figure the Holy Spirit has no need for my services at that point.

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The scriptures and context in which you quote them reveal, in some cases, the assumptions you have made. For example that I am trying to make the disiples of Jesus look dumb, or that I am interested in arguing about Jesus name. These are gross simplifications of what I am talking about. Your selection of texts seems to indicate the position you are coming from. I can't reply specifically because I don't know what your meaning is conclusively without your commentary and I don't want to be guilty of assuming your position.

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As to what I believe about you, the only reality important to consider, in my estimation, is what God thinks of you and how you wish Him to relate to you.

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I'm not worried about what God thinks of me. And I am not worried about what you or anyone else thinks of me, good or bad.

I am very familiar with the various textual proofs and counters that Adventists and other denominations use to make points. I am very familiar with the texts that you have quoted and the context in which they are often used.

It is apparent from your post that you believe that I am in need of salvation. And I understand your strategy to maintain a position of plausible deniability. I am not judging it to be wrong or right.

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But at this time, when it seems to me to be more important to you to argue about the numerous names of Jesus, than trusting in the one name He has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind, it would appear counter productive for me to tell you what God is saying.

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This statement seems to indicate that you know what God is saying. The reason I bring up the issue of Jesus name is that the text stating that there is no other name by which we can saved is used as proof of Christianity being the only path to God.

My point is that there are many paths and many names. What exactly does it mean to go through Jesus' name? Many of you state this like we should all understand what that means. At this point it is simply a cliche.

In my spiritual path I don't trust in names, but realities. I have seen too many people call on Jesus name and then do something very un-Jesus like. It has to be more than a name.

Richard