Robert Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 Quote: Quote: Yes, and you are looking at the book using your preconceived ideas....Free your mind bent on making God look worse than Hitler.... "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Rev 20:9 NKJ Job 1:16 While he (one of Job's servants) was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you...." Who did it? In this case Satan....Who gets the blame? God! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 3, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2004 Quote: Quote: Quote: Yes, and you are looking at the book using your preconceived ideas....Free your mind bent on making God look worse than Hitler.... "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Rev 20:9 NKJ Job 1:16 While he (one of Job's servants) was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you...." Who did it? In this case Satan....Who gets the blame? God! [:"blue"]And in the case of Rev 20:9, where does the fire come from? Satan himself? Satan the malignant virus of the universe deletes himself? Can the lost decide to freeze themselves to death instead? Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Yes, and you are looking at the book using your preconceived ideas....Free your mind bent on making God look worse than Hitler.... "And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Rev 20:9 NKJ Job 1:16 While he (one of Job's servants) was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you...." Who did it? In this case Satan....Who gets the blame? God! [:"blue"]And in the case of Rev 20:9, where does the fire come from? Satan himself? Satan the malignant virus of the universe deletes himself? Can the lost decide to freeze themselves to death instead? Gerry [/] If you go read what I have said...if you buy the book, "Light on the dark side of God" you will come to learn that when God is persistently rejected He retreats. When God retreats this old world will come apart.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 This might help you....I posted this on Jun 08-04 This is not the best illustration, but here goes: Let's say you ratted on some big drug lord, and the FBI has relocated you to safe location outside the city. The FBI assigns you your own private guard. He's there day and night....This man represents God's love and protection. At first you love the country; there's much to do. But eventually you grow bored and talk of going into town. The agent reasons with you and this time you submit, but eventually you can't stand it and go into town. Someone notices you and before you know it, well, you're dead! Who killed whom? Was it the agent (God) or was it your own "free-will" that got you into trouble? Now sure the agent could have tackled you and locked you in your room. Would that be okay? Now he's going against your will.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Quote: Richard I'm really sorry, cardw, but in trying to answer your last, I accidently hit back instead of offline, losing everything I had spent the last hour or more trying to pull together something, with hopes we could hold a mutually beneficial conversation. Would you say providential? Some would say accidental. Others even coincidental. But when God has been asked to be Sovereign in one's life, it puts a whole different flavor to the mix. Keep looking up! [:"red"] "...casting all your anxiety upon Him, because He cares for you." [/] 1 Pet 5:7 Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Quote: If you go read what I have said...if you buy the book, "Light on the dark side of God" you will come to learn that when God is persistently rejected He retreats. When God retreats this old world will come apart.... Robert, what about when God is desperately cried out for by a confused, terribly hurting 14-year-old -- one who does NOT have the benefit of an SDA or even Christian background OR the awareness of "light on the dark side of God", one who has NO preconceptions either way but simply cries out like a lost child for its parent, a child whose world has been shattered by a sudden tragedy -- and in response God is completely silent, as if ignoring his desperate plea, as if removed, rejecting him, or perhaps entirely non-existent? What about when a hurting soul cries desperately for God to COME and PUT TOGETHER a world that is crumbling and falling apart, a heart that is shattered by pain, a plea from pure, raw, aching human need, and the response is a BIG FAT NOTHING??? How would your understanding of God address such a situation for a soul whom, in bitterness and anger, 25 years later, has concluded from that experience and during all those ensuing years of silence, that God does not exist? (Please do NOT read this question as in a "confrontational" tone; it is not; it is a plea for input from your position on and understanding of God's character.) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 4, 2004 Author Share Posted July 4, 2004 Quote: God is completely silent I understand your conundrum, but it isn't because of rejection that God is silent. Personally I do not know why God does not reveal Himself (that is, since Jesus Christ came to earth). But then again I'm not thinking too hard at this moment....I need to give this some thought.... For me it's a matter of faith - I chose to believe because, "God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen [through creation], being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Rom 1:20 I can tell you this that if had not been for God's intervention through Pastor Jack Sequeira and people like Morris Venden and Robert Wieland...I would be an atheist by now. It seems God works through people?!?.... If you are that 14 year old, think about it, you are here and God is drawing you to a knowledge of His love seen in the life of Jesus Christ....Just don't get mixed up with the legalists.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 No, Robert, that's the problem -- that 14 year old isn't me. It's someone I care very much about -- or at least, it's a core moment in his history. That's why answers that make it somehow his "fault" God was silent won't suffice here, neither will things that I, as a person already of faith, could be satisfied with. God has yet to reveal Himself to this person and honestly, I have no answer for him as to why. I have prayed for this very thing myself and apparently God has seen fit to answer that prayer with "no" (or at least, "not now") And quite frankly, I wonder if God doing so now would be too little too late, because there's still that shattered 14 year old boy there wondering why no comfort came from his Creator in his hour of need. And I honestly don't have an answer for him. I can't answer that. I simply don't know. But neither can I persuade him of the goodness of God while that void, that abyss, that abandonment and rejection, remain. I can't even answer why God was not there for me when I needed Him so desperately to save me from being taken over by Satan 20 years ago -- my "answer" today consists in the fact that today I am free, and glad to be so, and the past no longer matters. But that's not something I have the power to give to someone else, know what I mean? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 I don't know what to say....My faith is based on my experiences - what I have gone through. My past was no picnic either....I just know that this world operates off of it's god and that believers are in enemy territory. I know that doesn't help....Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Quote: That's why answers that make it somehow his "fault" God was silent won't suffice here, neither will things that I, as a person already of faith, could be satisfied with. God has yet to reveal Himself to this person and honestly, I have no answer for him as to why. I have prayed for this very thing myself and apparently God has seen fit to answer that prayer with "no" (or at least, "not now") And quite frankly, I wonder if God doing so now would be too little too late, because there's still that shattered 14 year old boy there wondering why no comfort came from his Creator in his hour of need. And I honestly don't have an answer for him. I can't answer that. I simply don't know. But neither can I persuade him of the goodness of God while that void, that abyss, that abandonment and rejection, remain. I can't even answer why God was not there for me when I needed Him so desperately to save me from being taken over by Satan 20 years ago This is "THE" question. This comes ahead of "Why am I here?" and "What purpose does my life serve?" I would suggest that we back up one level of understanding and state that there is no why. What is meant by this is as soon as we ask why we are assuming that there is a causitive factor, or someone is at fault. When a being cannot find fault outside themselves then the deep assumption is that it is somehow their fault. This is further promoted by the doctrine of original sin or that we are born at fault. Or, in Adventist terminology, we are born sinful and self centered. I have found it helpful to understand that life is suffering. That way, I am not surprised when I do experience suffering and the need to find blame and punish those at fault is removed. The other point that I have observed is that no matter how much I have suffered there is someone who has suffered more. In fact, those who have come through the greatest suffering seem to have the greatest joy. At each moment I can choose to hope or to dispair. Since I am not trying to find fault I can focus on what a particular suffering is trying to teach. For if we do believe that all things work together for good, then it might help to look and search how our suffering is part of that "all things." If we look at Jesus and his life of suffering and understand how it transformed Him we can see how with each death and sorrow there is a rebirth. And with birth there is pain and struggle. It is when we dispair that the birth is aborted and we miss out on the joy. And even that can be overcome. There are statements that reveal that we can overcome all things. Maybe not in the ways that we preconcieve overcoming, but often in ways we would choose if we could know before we entered into the lessons of suffering. There is a state of mind that is very helpful for me and I enter into it by meditating on letting go of outcomes. This may not be an answer but it may reveal a path and a process. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Serene, I fold my hands and wait, Nor care for wind, nor tide, nor sea; I rave no more 'gainst time or fate, For lo! my own shall come to me. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 7, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 7, 2004 Quote: If you go read what I have said...if you buy the book, "Light on the dark side of God" you will come to learn that when God is persistently rejected He retreats. When God retreats this old world will come apart.... [:"blue"]Get a book written by a human to explain the BOOK whose AUTHOR promised to help me understand it? Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 7, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 7, 2004 Quote: This might help you....I posted this on Jun 08-04 This is not the best illustration, but here goes: Let's say you ratted on some big drug lord, and the FBI has relocated you to safe location outside the city. The FBI assigns you your own private guard. He's there day and night....This man represents God's love and protection. At first you love the country; there's much to do. But eventually you grow bored and talk of going into town. The agent reasons with you and this time you submit, but eventually you can't stand it and go into town. Someone notices you and before you know it, well, you're dead! Who killed whom? Was it the agent (God) or was it your own "free-will" that got you into trouble? Now sure the agent could have tackled you and locked you in your room. Would that be okay? Now he's going against your will.... [:"blue"]Where does the fire come from?????????? Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 From under the earth when it breaks up....It will jet fire into the sky and hence "rain down fire from heaven." Sorry Gerry, God is not going to kill.... Gerry you just got bad theology….First of all you are a legalist. Second of all you make God to be a Hitler….I definitely will not be going to the church you got your theology from…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 Quote: Get a book written by a human to explain the BOOK whose AUTHOR promised to help me understand it? Gerry But Gerry, God can't help your mind/heart out as long as you remain under the Old Covenant: 2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 8, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2004 Quote: From under the earth when it breaks up....It will jet fire into the sky and hence "rain down fire from heaven." Sorry Gerry, God is not going to kill.... [:"blue"]So the earth has in it fire that can destroy Satan & all his followers, fire that can melt all the elements, and yet it's not melting the earth now. Great reasoning, Rob. Amazing what hoops, what circuitous routes a person travels to get around what the Bible plainly says! [/] Quote: Gerry you just got bad theology….First of all you are a legalist. Second of all you make God to be a Hitler….I definitely will not be going to the church you got your theology from…. [:"blue"]You can recite your mantra of bad theology all you want, but sorry, that doesn't make it so. When you can show me something plainly from Scripture without disregarding what it says, I might believe you.[/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 8, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2004 Quote: Quote: Get a book written by a human to explain the BOOK whose AUTHOR promised to help me understand it? Gerry But Gerry, God can't help your mind/heart out as long as you remain under the Old Covenant: 2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [:"blue"]Really? When the Word says something so plainly, yet someone else says it doesn't mean what it says, then who has the veil? Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 8, 2004 Author Share Posted July 8, 2004 Quote: ...show me something plainly from Scripture without disregarding what it says, I might believe you. Gerry Is 45:7 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Okay at face value it sounds like God, not Satan, creates evil....Why do you need a devil when it sounds like God creates evil Himself???? Here's another: So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14). Did God kill Saul? That's face value, huh? Nope...read the rest of the story.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 10, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2004 Quote: Quote: ...show me something plainly from Scripture without disregarding what it says, I might believe you. Gerry Is 45:7 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Okay at face value it sounds like God, not Satan, creates evil....Why do you need a devil when it sounds like God creates evil Himself???? Here's another: So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14). Did God kill Saul? That's face value, huh? Nope...read the rest of the story.... [:"blue"]Yes, you are correct, Robert, that there are somethings that are attributed to God which are not so, and these are clarified by other portions of Scripture. But evil stamping itself out? That requires a lot of Scripture twisting. Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 10, 2004 Author Share Posted July 10, 2004 Quote: But evil stamping itself out? Evil doesn't stamp itself out...."The wages of sin is death." Sin causes death - it pays in death. Sin creates disaster, and disaster kills - not God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Quote: Satan the malignant virus of the universe deletes himself? I see Gerry is still enjoying my Virus meme! (Personally I love it, it works on SO many levels!) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 11, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 11, 2004 Quote: Quote: ...show me something plainly from Scripture without disregarding what it says, I might believe you. Gerry Is 45:7 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [:"blue"]BTW, Isaiah may have had this in mind when he said the quote above. [:"red"]"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. BUT if your heart turns away so that you do not hear...........I announce to you today that you shall surely perish...........I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live..." Dt 30:15-19 NKJ. [/] You see, the blessings and the cursings are inherent in the nature of laws. There is an inherent blessing to obeying the law of gravity, just as there is an inherent evil to disregarding it. I believe that is what Isaiah is talking about. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 11, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 11, 2004 Yep, I love it, because as you say, it works in so many levels. Thanks again. Never seen a virus that stamped itself out yet. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Quote: [:"red"]"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. BUT if your heart turns away so that you do not hear...........I announce to you today that you shall surely perish...........I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live..." Dt 30:15-19 NKJ. [/] You see, the blessings and the cursings are inherent in the nature of laws. There is an inherent blessing to obeying the law of gravity, just as there is an inherent evil to disregarding it. I believe that is what Isaiah is talking about. [/] Gerry, I think you are definitely onto something with this. Some time ago the Lord gave me an understanding concerning something called the Everlasting Covenant. Basically, in a nutshell the Everlasting Covenant is that which is written into the fabric of Reality itself, and it has to do with precisely the thing you mention, that Reality inherently contains cause and effect processes --"functional laws"-- that serve to validate the moral imperative inherent in the structure of the universe itself. Genuine moral imperative is not an arbitrary set of rules handed down from a divine parent to a bunch of children "because Daddy says so." Genuine moral imperative is in the very core of the structure of the entire Creation as part of how Life is intended to operate so as to exist in perpetuity. The very first law of this was broken in the Garden of Eden -- Life cannot exist apart from the Life-Giver. What the Lord revealed to me at that time was that the Everlasting Covenant is built into the fabric of Reality to provide an eternal witness to Him and to our need of Him and our surety in Him. It is because of His MERCY that negative consequences ensue when we disregard the laws of life; these are designed to alert us to the fact that we are not living in His Spirit so that we may return to Him and be restored. The "curses" befalling Israel in their disobedience illustrate this process. It is simply so that we will not be able to forget God or be content with a life presuming to exist apart from Him. Also, when He revealed these things, He used the same passages you quoted from Deuteronomy to show them to me. I believe it was the whole of Deut. 29 and 30 in which He makes this plain in all detail. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 12, 2004 Moderators Share Posted July 12, 2004 Quote: Quote: [:"red"]"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. BUT if your heart turns away so that you do not hear...........I announce to you today that you shall surely perish...........I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live..." Dt 30:15-19 NKJ. [/] You see, the blessings and the cursings are inherent in the nature of laws. There is an inherent blessing to obeying the law of gravity, just as there is an inherent evil to disregarding it. I believe that is what Isaiah is talking about. [/] Gerry, I think you are definitely onto something with this. Some time ago the Lord gave me an understanding concerning something called the Everlasting Covenant. Basically, in a nutshell the Everlasting Covenant is that which is written into the fabric of Reality itself, and it has to do with precisely the thing you mention, that Reality inherently contains cause and effect processes --"functional laws"-- that serve to validate the moral imperative inherent in the structure of the universe itself. Genuine moral imperative is not an arbitrary set of rules handed down from a divine parent to a bunch of children "because Daddy says so." Genuine moral imperative is in the very core of the structure of the entire Creation as part of how Life is intended to operate so as to exist in perpetuity. The very first law of this was broken in the Garden of Eden -- Life cannot exist apart from the Life-Giver. What the Lord revealed to me at that time was that the Everlasting Covenant is built into the fabric of Reality to provide an eternal witness to Him and to our need of Him and our surety in Him. It is because of His MERCY that negative consequences ensue when we disregard the laws of life; these are designed to alert us to the fact that we are not living in His Spirit so that we may return to Him and be restored. The "curses" befalling Israel in their disobedience illustrate this process. It is simply so that we will not be able to forget God or be content with a life presuming to exist apart from Him. Also, when He revealed these things, He used the same passages you quoted from Deuteronomy to show them to me. I believe it was the whole of Deut. 29 and 30 in which He makes this plain in all detail. [:"blue"]Nico, that is beautiful & profound. That the negative consequences of violating God's laws are also a product of His mercy, I have not thought of them in that way before. Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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