Examining God’s character – His attributes....

September 9, 2006

When God chooses to take a life, He has all the information necessary to justify His choice.

[:"red"] "...for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." [/] 1 Samuel 16:7 NASB

[:"red"] "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure....

I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." [/] Isaiah 46:9-11

[:"red"] " And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” " [/] Ex 4:21-24

NKJV

[:"red"] "Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" [/] Romans 9:21 ASV

[:"red"] ""Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker--An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?'Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?" [/]

Isaiah 45:9 NASB

[:"red"] "You turn things around!Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me";Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?" [/] Isaiah 29:16 NASB

September 9, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: When God chooses to take a life, He has all the information necessary to justify His choice.

So He justifies breaking His own law? I think you got my Jesus mixed up with someone else!

September 10, 2006

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Robert said:

So He justifies breaking His own law? I think you got my Jesus mixed up with someone else!

[:"red"] "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. " [/] John 15:10 KJV

If one sees killing as different than murder, there remains no mystery in that which God declares about Himself.

Kill: to deprive of life, to put an end to. To kill merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner.

Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person, especially with malice aforethought; specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility.

WEBSTER'S NINTH NEW COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY

Not only is God able as Creator of the universe, to determine what is lawful and what is unlawful, since He is Love, He never takes life with malice against His enemy.

[:"red"] "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?" [/]

Ezekiel 18:23 ASV

[:"red"] "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" [/] Ezekiel 33:11 ASV

[:"red"] "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." [/] Hebrews 13:8 NASB

[:"red"] "For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

and did all eat the same spiritual food;

and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ" [/] 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 ASV

September 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said:

Kill: to deprive of life, to put an end to. To kill merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner.

Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person, especially with malice aforethought; specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility.

WEBSTER'S NINTH NEW COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY

Your source is human...it is not divine. You are adding to the Bible using worldly interpretations.

September 10, 2006

Let's look at some contradictions that God has left for you in His word:

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court...."

"...at Horeb you provoked the Lord to wrath, and the Lord was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you." Deuteronomy 9:8

[:"blue"]Love [and God is love] is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous.... 1 Cor 13:5

"I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...." Ex 20:5[/]

[:"green"] "For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient [how so?] spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another...." Titus 3:2

"Jacob have I [the Lord] loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13

September 10, 2006

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Robert said:

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court...."

"...at Horeb you provoked the Lord to wrath, and the Lord was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you." Deuteronomy 9:8

[:"blue"]Love [and God is love] is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous.... 1 Cor 13:5

"I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...." Ex 20:5[/]

[:"green"] "For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient [how so?] spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another...." Titus 3:2

"Jacob have I [the Lord] loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13

[/]

"And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."

What was the condition of those two goats in Leviticus?

What were the qualifications of the two goats? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless.

Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means.

But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language.

Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue! When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility.

The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. [:"blue"]When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment. [/] [JS]

September 11, 2006

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Robert said:

Let's look at some contradictions that God has left

Contradictions in God's Word are only in the minds of those who misunderstand Him, which misunderstanding is easy to become mired in when choosing to remove whatever Scripture is difficult to comprehend.

[:"red"] " Know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.

Canst thou by searching find out God? Canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

It is high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than Sheol; what canst thou know?" [/] Job 11:6-8 ASV

September 11, 2006

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Robert said:

Your source is human...it is not divine. You are adding to the Bible using worldly interpretations.

I would suggest another source than the english language as a means of communication.

September 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: Contradictions in God's Word are only in the minds of those who misunderstand Him....

<hr /></blockquote>Here’s another contradiction, unless you understand the principle that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent:

First let’s define deception as sinful:

“evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” 2 Tim 3:13

There is none who does good, There is not even one. 13 Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The poison of asps is under their lips” 14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness” ; 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood, 16 Destruction and misery are in their paths…Romans 3:12-16

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie….” 2 Thess 2:11

September 11, 2006

Another contradiction, unless you understand the principle already set forth:

"The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [The Lord] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2)."

"Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel...." (1 Chron. 21:1)

September 11, 2006

If 9/11 happened and had been recorded during Biblical times I have no doubt that God would have said,

"I, the Lord your God, brought down the twin towers; I utterly destroyed them!"

But that's God assuming the blame. What really happened?

Well, God knows the secrets of men's hearts. He knows the truth. We get "spin" whether it's from FOX, CNN, the White House or the terrorists.

Perhaps the buildings came down because God removed Himself? Why, I don't know? We know that He brings rain (another way of saying "blessings") on the just and the unjust. I guess this is something we will learn during the 1000 years in heaven before God returns to raise those who persistently said "get lost" to God.

Let's face something. This nation, compared to other nations, is a fairly good one. We don't have a dictatorship, but at the same time this nation belongs to what John called "the kingdoms of this world". So don't be surprised when these things happen.

September 12, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Another contradiction, unless you understand the principle already set forth:

"The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [The Lord] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2)."

"Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel...." (1 Chron. 21:1)

What do you do with the above, LifeHiscost?

Rob

September 15, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Another contradiction, unless you understand the principle already set forth:

"The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [The Lord] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2)."

"Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel...." (1 Chron. 21:1)

What do you do with the above, LifeHiscost?

Rob

Nothing! Good, maybe now you can see your error in placing human characteristics upon God. We do like a god in our image. Kind of makes things we do okay, huh?

Rob

September 16, 2006

Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Is 45:6 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, 14 and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

Then, as previously quoted, you also have "Esau I have hated" and "I am a jealous God" etc, etc. The only conclusion...yes "only"....it that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. That’s the key to understanding God's so called dark-side.

September 20, 2006

That’s the key to understanding God's so called dark-side.

The key I find from the Scripture, to understanding God, is that God has no dark side. When I do not see that Light, it is not God that needs changing. It is me.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8 NASB

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30 ASV

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." 1 John 4:8 ASV

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. " 1 John 1:5 KJV

Blessings!! :G-d power:

September 20, 2006

"And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."

What was the condition of those two goats in Leviticus?

What were the qualifications of the two goats? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless.

Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means.

But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language.

Someone has to take the blame.

And in the Day of Atonement ceremony ... what was the very final procedure?

Releasing the scapegoat.

You heard me.

Is this the antitypical day of atonement?

I dunno, if it is, it must be the longest "day" in history, even a prophetic "day" is only supposed to be a year! But why is it going on so long? because no one is FINISHING IT. while a few of us have divined the secret of the "next step" so to speak, corporately speaking, we have not yet RELEASED THE SCAPEGOAT.

What does it mean to "release"?

To let go. To cease holding onto. In a very real sense ... To forgive.

"When the character of Christ has been perfectly reproduced in His people, then will He come to claim them as His own.

Seems to me Christ was someone who chose to die for the undeserving, for the sinful, for His enemies. (Romans 5).

Oh how we cling to our scapegoat! What would our lives be if we could not exclude and vilify? Where would our faith be if we could not exclude and vilify ... HIM?

Release the scapegoat, and the latter rain will fall.

You have my word.

September 20, 2006

Originally Posted By: Robert

That’s the key to understanding God's so called dark-side.

The key I find from the Scripture, to understanding God, is that God has no dark side.

Okay...but it looks like He does:

"I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...." Ex 20:5

"Jacob have I [the Lord] loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13

September 21, 2006

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

The key I find from the Scripture' date=' to understanding God, is that God has no dark side. [/quote']

Okay...but it looks like He does:

"I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God...." Ex 20:5

"Jacob have I [the Lord] loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13

When it is said, "...but it looks like He does:", this is the way the natural man perceives the Word.

"Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged."

1 Corinthians 2:14 ASV

Since it is the Spirit (of God) that guides us into all truth, and the Word cannot lie, nor can God perform that which is contrary to His nature (His nature being love) it is necessary for us to receive from the Spirit new ideas (discoveries) that make the direct statement of the Word truthfully fit His nature rather than striving to fit it (the Word) to our preconceived ideas of His nature. In other words, God=love=jealous/God=love=hated.", not because I understand how that could be, but because the Word says it is true,and when understood correctly, it can be understood to reveal Love..

"if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 ASV

"...in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal" Titus 1:2 ASV

Blessings!!

September 23, 2006

In other words, God=love=jealous/God=love=hated.", not because I understand how that could be, but because the Word says it is true, and when understood correctly, it can be understood to reveal Love..

And how do you understand that correctly?

Rob

September 23, 2006

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

In other words, God=love=jealous/God=love=hated.", not because I understand how that could be,

it can be understood to reveal Love..

And how do you understand that correctly?

Rob

While not necessarily assuming I have a handle on the correct understanding, if there is one specific understanding, the way I apply it to the revelation of God's love is to find out first, what the Bible reveals He hated and of what He was jealous.

" There are six things which the LORD hates,

Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,

And hands that shed innocent blood,

A heart that devises wicked plans,

Feet that run rapidly to evil,

A false witness who utters lies,

And one who spreads strife among brothers. "

Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God" Exodus 20:5

KJV

"moreover, you have seen their abominations and their idols of wood, stone, silver, and gold, which they had with them);

so that there will not be among you a man or woman, or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of those nations; that there will not be among you a root bearing poisonous fruit and wormwood.

"It shall be when he hears the words of this curse, that he will boast, saying, 'I have peace though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart in order to destroy the watered land with the dry.'

"The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. " Deut 29:17-20

NASB

In all cases where jealousy was referred as applying to the Lord, as far as I have been able to ascertain, it applied to the Israelite's accepting gods other than the Lord Jehovah, which were no gods at all, and in affect removed His children from the only true God, the only One Who could give them life.

This principle also applied to those things the Lord hates, each item being a characteristic that separated the Lifegiver from those He would give life. Not only did they cause the party who practiced them, the loss of their own existence in the kingdom of God, but the behavior exerted influenced others to practice the same thing when not duly dealt with by the discipline of the Lord. Thus His love was revealed in that which which He hates and that which He revealed His jealousy.

"but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, so that he will not hear." Isaiah 59:2 ASV

"`As many as I love, I do convict and chasten; be zealous, then, and reform... " Rev 3:19 YLT

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11 KJV

:G-d power:

September 23, 2006

[The Lord hates] one who spreads strife among brothers. "

Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB

September 23, 2006

Ex 20:5 “You shall not worship them [gods of wood/stone –see v 4] or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So it seems that God’s so called jealousy causes Him to “pay back” even those not directly responsible for the sin of idolatry. Sounds like a human response: I love you if you love me.

Ex 20 creates another problem. Compare with Ez 18:20

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Yes?

September 23, 2006

...I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Why does God attribute sin, jealousy, to Himself? Further more why does He punish (NIV) the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Him? Does He really punish those who persistently hate Him, or is God once again assuming the blame for results of unbelief started by the fathers of these children?

My understanding of God leads me to the latter. From our perspective God is jealous because the wicked refuse to love and it looks like He is punishing them. But in reality they bring trouble on themselves. Since God is sovereign He assumes the fall out from their unbelief and idolatry, but to the masses it looks like God is sinning…that is, He is acting like a jealous husband.

Rob

September 23, 2006

The Blame-taker vs. the Accuser, by MM Campbell:

Some time back I worked in an office for a usually very fair-minded man. But one day he got the idea I had not forwarded an important report on its due date. I had no recollection of anyone telling me to send that report out; however, I quickly prepared it for forwarding and wrote a cover memorandum taking full responsibility for its tardiness. When I showed it to the boss for his approval, he trashed it. "In this office we don't get into blame placing," he said. "As director and manager of this office, I am responsible for all the work that's done here." And he quickly re-wrote the memo.

The story has a happy ending. In a matter of minutes he realized he had looked at the wrong report, which was not supposed to go anywhere, and he graciously apologized to me.

But even as it happened I saw something of God's mind when the boss took the blame. Maturity understands the importance of assuming responsibility, while immaturity blames everything and everyone in sight. Thus our supremely mature God makes Himself ultimately responsible for the results of granting His intelligent creatures free will, even to the extent of assuming blame for the numerous episodes of destruction attributed to Him in Scripture.

Our heavenly Father assures us He is in charge of His universe. As Creator of heavens and earth and Sustainer of life in the universe, He will never give Satan equal billing with Himself will never point a finger and say, "He did it!" Since God could have prevented an incident but, out of respect for His creatures' free will, chose not to do so, He sees and describes Himself as doing it.

September 25, 2006

I'm sorry, Robert, for the inability I have to reason as you do. From the Word I recognize all Scripture as necessary to understand the Divine, as well as the Divine will. Therefore to establish recognizable Truth, I know that God does not speak inconsistently or in contradiction to Himself. Nor does the Spirit speak to God's servants with words in contradiction to each other.

The wisdom you express does not recognize all of the Word as agreeing with itself. Therefore it is assumed to come from different sources. Since I only see one Source as reliable, I must decline your explanations of Truth.

If you are still a seeker, with a recognition that Jesus will never turn away someone who honestly seeks His will above their own, I have no doubt you will be led to eternal rewards in His kingdom.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17 KJV

"...that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD." Deuteronomy 8:3 KJV

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" Matt 4:4 KJV

Regards

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Examining God’s character – His attributes....

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