Diplomatic Flashback

[Dr. Shane]

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All right, sir, let me ask you one simple question: Do you, Ambassador Zorin, deny that the U.S.S.R. has placed and is placing medium- and intermediate-range missiles and sites in Cuba? Yes or no—don’t wait for the translation—yes or no?

(The Soviet representative refused to answer.)

You can answer yes or no. You have denied they exist. I want to know if I understood you correctly. I am prepared to wait for my answer until hell freezes over, if that’s your decision. And I am also prepared to present the evidence in this room.

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Mr. President and gentlemen, I won’t detain you but one minute.

I have not had a direct answer to my question. The representative of the Soviet Union says that the official answer of the U.S.S.R. was the Tass statement that they don’t need to locate missiles in Cuba. Well, I agree—they don’t need to. But the question is, have they missiles in Cuba—and that question remains unanswered. I knew it would be.

That is how Democrats use to sound on defense. Where are those Democrats today?

[Neil D]

That is how Democrats use to sound on defense. Where are those Democrats today?

Hawkish Democrat Joins Call For Pullout

GOP Assails Murtha's Demand to Leave Iraq

By Charles Babington

Washington Post Staff Writer

November 18, 2005

The top House Democrat on military spending matters stunned colleagues yesterday by calling for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, while many congressional Democrats reacted defiantly to President Bush's latest attack on his critics. Source

It takes courage to stand up to the President of the US when the the President is not doing right.

Currently, we have a higher number of dead coming home due to an insurgency that we are not controling. Our piss poor policys come from men who were slackers even when they were in the military. It's time to either put some real teeth in our occupation or to pull out entirely.

[Dr. Shane]

Again I ask, "Where are those Democrats today?" It doesn't take courage to be a coward. That is SPIN. It takes courage to defend an unpopular war because it is the right thing to do.

[Neil D]

It is courage to stand up to the most powerful man on earth, and tell him that his war, in which he manipulated data to convince the public that it was a just war to attack a country which had no link to our attack, that we need to get out of that country.

It is hypicritical of those who lable these people as 'cowards' when they are the ones being truely patriotic.

All I want to say is "Mr. President, get the job done, or get the hell out of office."

[bevin]

Shane

Let us review the history of the Cuban Missile "crisis" (so called) 1962.

The USA had about 600 intercontinental ballastic missiles carrying nuclear weapons. The USSR had about 6.

The USA had intermediate range ones stationed in Turkey and in Europe. For some weird reason they felt it was their right to have such missiles close to the USSR, but the USSR was not allowed to have them here.

The USA had (1961) orchestrated and supplied the Bay of Pigs attempt to invade Cuba.

The Soviets decided that, if the USA could have nuclear missiles in Turkey, they could have them in Cuba.

JFK disagreed, and caused the crisis.

The Soviets and the American's reached an agreement. The Soviets agreed not to place their missiles, and the Americans agreed to commit to never attempting to invade Cuba again, and to withdraw their nuclear missiles from Turkey. The later part of the agreement was kept secret until about 1990, so most of the American public are not aware of it.

Final score: The world won, the Soviets came out better than the Americans

/Bevin

Oh, and by the way, the USA planned an invasion, their intelligence was terribly flawed, and the invasion would have been a disaster for the USA, but fortunately the MODERATE ANTI WAR forces stopped the USA from a HUGE disaster. It is a shame the same didn't happen in Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

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A blockade was finally chosen, although there were a number of conservatives (notably Paul Nitze, and Generals Curtis LeMay and Maxwell Taylor) who kept pushing for tougher action. An invasion was planned, and troops were assembled in Florida. However, U.S. intelligence was flawed: they believed Soviet and Cuban troop numbers on Cuba to be around 10,000 and 100,000, when they were in fact around 43,000 and 270,000 respectively [3]. Also, they were unaware that 12 kiloton-range nuclear warheads had already been delivered to the island and mounted on FROG-3 "Luna" short-range artillery rockets, which could be launched on the authority of the Soviet commander on the island, General Pliyev [4], in the event of an invasion. Though they posed no threat to the continental U.S., an invasion would probably have precipitated a nuclear strike against the invading force, with catastrophic results.

[Dr. Shane]

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It is courage to stand up to the most powerful man on earth

This is pure spin. Just a little reminder, don't spin me. I am not a top.

It is couragous for a cuban to stand up to Castro knowing he will be put to death or tortured as a result. This is because Castro has more power in Cuba than the President of the US has in America. Cowards can ridicule the President all day long and the President can do nothing about it becuase in America we have freedom of speech. Far from being a couragous act, ridiculing the President has become a method the Left hopes will return them to power. Calling them couragous for doing it is like calling a quarterback couragous for throwing a touchdown pass.

[Dr. Shane]

Quite a bit of SPIN in this post.

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The USA had intermediate range ones stationed in Turkey and in Europe. For some weird reason they felt it was their right to have such missiles close to the USSR, but the USSR was not allowed to have them here.

Hmmmmm, some "weird reason"? Like the USSR was aggressive? Like the USSR invaded other nations? Like the USSR build walls around nations to keep the citizens from leaving? Like Turkey fear being invaded by the USSR?

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the MODERATE ANTI WAR forces stopped the USA from a HUGE disaster.

No anti-war forces were in power. The anti-war forces were smoking dope and making love in the back of their VW vans. JFK committed the US more to Vietnaum. Only a spinmister could claim he was in anyway anti-war. He was a war hero and not one that came home, threw away his metals and protested US forgien policy.

There were those like McAurthor and Goldwater that favored the use of nuclear weapons but that doesn't mean those that disagreed with that view were anti-war and it is SPIN to portrait them in that light.

Some say that Joe Lieberman is the last JFK-Democrat. Tim Penny and Zell Miller were too.

[Neil D]

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It is courage to stand up to the most powerful man on earth

This is pure spin. Just a little reminder, don't spin me. I am not a top.

It is couragous for a cuban to stand up to Castro knowing he will be put to death or tortured as a result. This is because Castro has more power in Cuba than the President of the US has in America. Cowards can ridicule the President all day long and the President can do nothing about it becuase in America we have freedom of speech. Far from being a couragous act, ridiculing the President has become a method the Left hopes will return them to power. Calling them couragous for doing it is like calling a quarterback couragous for throwing a touchdown pass.

[bevin]

Did you even read the Wiki article? Within the administration there were hawks and doves, just like within the Bush administration. Fortunately the president listened to the doves.

Almost everyone who lived through the Viet Nam conflict admits it was a huge blunder by the American's. Barbara Tuchman describes it as a huge folly - something that EVEN AT THE TIME was being correctly described as foolish. Robert McNamara - the man who basically organized the US side - described it as a big mistake.

You really need to learn a lot more history.

/Bevin

[bevin]

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Hmmmmm, some "weird reason"? Like the USSR was aggressive?

and the American's weren't??? You REALLY need to learn more history.

/Bevin

[gina i]

Those democrats are out there fighting a war too, Shane.

[Dr. Shane]

Actually, most of my spare time is spent with my nose in history books. Right now I am in the middle of volume 1 of "Debate On The Constitution".

In fact, I had already read Wikipedia's "Cuban Missile Crisis" before I even started this thread. Wikipedia is good but not always reliable. I also watched FOXNew's episode of War Stories about the Cuban Missle Crisis.

Many in the modern-day anti-war movement actually think the Cold War was just a bunch of hooey and that the US was never actually in danger. They believe McCarthy was off his rocker and those that built bomb shelters were nut-jobs. I will suggest that even JFK's so-called "doves" knew better. They understood communism was a real threat and we were dangerously close to nuclear war.

There are no prominent JFK Democrats on the national stage today - unless we can still cal Joe Lieberman a Democrat.

During a period of history when the US and the UK were giving independance to their colonial conquests, the USSR was aggressively invading other nations.

[bevin]

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They believe McCarthy was off his rocker

There is some doubt about this? It was the Salem witch trials all over again.

/Bevin

[bevin]

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During a period of history when the US and the UK were giving independance to their colonial conquests, the USSR was aggressively invading other nations.

Precisely which colonial conquest did the USA give up? You mean the Phillipines?

It is easy to point to places we invaded - Korea, Viet Nam? Nah, Suez, ...

Lets be fair about this. The American's had been anti-communist since the Russian Revolution. They had backed anti-communist forces then, and had continued to oppose them ever since then. There were public statements about "when we are finished with the Germans lets just keep going and destroy the Russians also".

It is very hard to point to a country that was not close to Russia that Russia could be accused of invading - although they did back peasants against corrupt looting established ruling regimes in a variety of countries - and when the regimes were sufficiently corrupt (eg Cuba) those peasants won.

Communism/Socialism was terrible - but some of the regimes that it replaced were even worse.

Now the USA is actively doing what you accuse the Soviets of doing - invading other countries in order to spread a particular style of government and install regimes friendly to us.

If it was wrong for them to do it, it is wrong for us to do it.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

One that compares the US with Communist Russia shows their true colors. The US has gone to the aid of thousands and paid the price for their freedom with American blood. The US is a noble nation with noble goals. Communist Russia was an evil empiror that killed millions of its citizens through a self-imposed starvation. They allowed no dissent. All forms of media were controlled by the state. Private citizens were not even allowed to own a type-writer.

What the US did in Korea, Vietnaum, Kuwait and for the entire world during during the '40s was to defend and spread freedom and self-governing. Our current effort in Iraq, as flawed as it has been, is noble.

Now about McCarthy... Looking at his tactics from our side of history, most agree that it was grevious. But we do err when we study history from that approach. We need to look at his tactics from the place in time that he lived. This occured only a short time after FDR rounded up Japanesse and German Americans and put them in internment camps. And the Supreme Court allowed it!!! The world had been shaken by the awesome destruction of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan and communisim was a real threat. The idea that the Red Scare was blown out of proportion is hard to prove or disprove. Since Joe McCarthy was of questionable charachter, he made a good scape goat but make no doubt about it. Communism was a real threat, there were soviet spies in America and some of them were in Hollywood. Those that don't know that may do well to spend more time studying that era of our nation's history.

[bevin]

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Communism/Socialism was terrible - but some of the regimes that it replaced were even worse.

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One that compares the US with Communist Russia shows their true colors

One can COMPARE black with white. I did not EQUATE the two systems.

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The US has gone to the aid of thousands and paid the price for their freedom with American blood.

The USA has done much good - and has also done much harm. The genocide of the Indians. Slavery. Segregation. Internment camps. Backing various nasty regimes around the world - including Pol Pot.

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Communist Russia was an evil empiror that killed millions of its citizens through a self-imposed starvation

Yes, it was. Tsarist Russia was worse. Furthermore the USSR was born out of a Revolution where the USA had backed the other side, was attacked twice in 25 years by Germany, and had excellent reasons to believe the USA was intent on their destruction.

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The idea that the Red Scare was blown out of proportion is hard to prove or disprove.

Joe McCarthy was playing the same FEAR FEAR FEAR card that GWB has been pushing more recently.

Of course it was blown out of all proportion, and it is easily proven. The hawks were pushing the Domino Theory that said that if Viet Nam fell, the all the rest of the Far East would fall as well. Viet Nam did fall, as did Cambodia. But Thailand, contrary to the predictions, did NOT fall and the whole Domino Theory was shown to be false. Similarly Africa and South America. The fact of the matter is that no country went Communist unless its previous government was truely awful

Yes, there were Soviet spies in the USA. There were also American spies in the USSR. Furthermore the USA was engaged in illegal spy flights over the USSR.

This is not a black-and-white situation. Most of the Russians are glad that Communism has not survived there, and prefer their new way of life. But the USSR was not an inherently evil empire, only doing things for the sake of being nasty, and the USA is not an inherently good empire, doing only righteous things.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The Domino Theory was part of the Red Scare but not what I was referring to. I was referring to the possability that the US would be hit by a nuclear bomb which caused people to build fall-out shelters and school children to practice duck and cover. Many in the modern-day anti-war movement scoff at those things as if there was no real danger during the Cold War period.

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Joe McCarthy was playing the same FEAR FEAR FEAR card that GWB has been pushing more recently.

I don't think that is fair especially since terrorists have already hit the US demonstrating that the fear of them legitamate. All McCarthy had was Soviet threats. However even those threats were reason to be fearful. I grew up in Seattle and when I was in high school one of my teachers was fishing in the Straight of Juan de Fuca when a Soviet submarine surfaced. He went back to shore and called the Coast Guard and they told him they were already aware of it.

[bevin]

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I don't think that is fair especially since terrorists have already hit the US demonstrating that the fear of them legitamate

Doonesbury has been having great fun with this one.

For instance: in 2003 11,920 people were victims of FIRE-ARM HOMICIDE in the USA (http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html)

Do you here GWB talking about the things that kill the most Americans? No. Is he encouraging us to fear the most likely things to hurt us? No.

If terrorism is the thing you fear most, you are being extremely illogical.

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submarine

The USA put missiles into submarines and placed them close to the USSR first. The USA continually dominated the USSR in the arms race - more of everything, except maybe cannon fodder.

The USA had spy submarines deep inside USSR territorial waters.

The USSR correctly perceived the USA as threatening its existence, and - surprise surprise - it fought back. And this resistance was marketed to the US populace by politicians as 'they are evil and we are good'.

The truth was, and is, much more complex than that.

Today GWB is doing the same lying simplification of the Muslim world. It is simply not true that they hate us because we have freedom and they don't.

/Bevin

[Taylor]

It is true, however, that many do hate us simply becuase we are Americans and all that means...freedom of religion, fredmon to dress the way we want (which to most Muslims is higly immodest) etc..

When I was in India...I was treated with the utmost kindness and respect and gentelness by some muslims. I would be proud to call them friends, to eat with them, and spend time with them. However, I could also tell you about simply driving through a town when a Muslim festival was just getting out with a river of Muslim men coming from their house of worship. The hatred in their eyes that they had towards the people in my taxi as we were obviously western....was incredible. (And no I am not paranoid. I am probably not the most well traveled person on this website but I have been in about 15 countries so far, having lived in 5 of them for extended periods of time) Oh sure, it wasn't all of them, but it was a vast majority. And no, it wasn't because we were driving down their street. There were other taxies and cars which were left alone while ours was thumped,(hit with their hands, kicked) screamed at, cursed at (according to our driver. I have no idea as I couldn't understand their language. But our driver who was a local person said "they just don't like this car and it's people in it so they say terrible things.". ) There are many that do hate us simply because we are Americans.

[Amelia]

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Actually, most of my spare time is spent with my nose in history books

History written after the fact is often not the truth.

[Dr. Shane]

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in 2003 11,920 people were victims of FIRE-ARM HOMICIDE in the USA

All kinds of games can be played with numbers. How many people are killed by drunk drivers? How many are killed in fishing accidents? How many are killed by natural disasters? How many are killed by lightening strikes? That is a game of the spinmisters.

More than just killing people, terrorists threaten our economy. The 9/11 attacks shut down Wall Street, caused the Dow Jones to plumet and deepened a recession. This resulted in many losing their jobs and some of those their homes. If and when there is another terrorist attack of a simular magnitude we can expect simular results.

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The USA put missiles into submarines and placed them close to the USSR first.

That is irrelavant to this discussion. The point of the discussion is that during the '50s and '60s the threat of nuclear war was real and both Democrats and Republicans understood that. Much of the anti-war crowd today does not understand the danger the nation was in then nor the danger it is in today.

[Dr. Shane]

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History written after the fact is often not the truth.

Understood. The only thing we can trust is the Holy Bible. History books were not written by the hand of God nor are news broadcasts done by divine inspiration.

[Planey]

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The only thing we can trust is the Holy Bible.

Not "The Great Controversy"?

[bevin]

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The 9/11 attacks shut down Wall Street, caused the Dow Jones to plumet and deepened a recession.

Actually, no it did not. Any more than any other natural disaster. These effects were caused by the way the USA govt and the USA people reacted to the event, and 9/11 was and is the convenient scapegoat for a variety of blunders by the Bush Administration.

/Bevin

[Naomi]

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These effects were caused by the way the USA govt and the USA people reacted to the event,

Perhaps i've missed something in the economic perfect-circle but since when did reaction of the people not have an impact on Wall Street?

How were we supposed to react? Perhaps we should have danced in the streets, have a party, go out and invest heavily in stocks and bonds?