Dr. Shane Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 The Bible teaches that in the second resurrection, all the wicked will be brought back to life... and then killed again. So, what is the point of that? I believe in order to bring an end to sin forever, all of the wicked must see their sinfulness, see God's righteousness and admit they were given opportunities to accept God but rejected them. The wicked must admit God is right and they are wrong. That is why I believe God brings the wicked back to life. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11) This happens after the righteous have been in heaven for 1,000 years examining the books of heaven and "judging" all the lost - including the fallen angels. The confession of their wickedness and God's goodness by the lost will forever set the record straight. Sin will never happen again. [Another way to look at it would be to suggest that such was one last chance to decide to spend eternity with God. That implies that if any made the decision to spend eternity with God, that God would grant their desire. One aspect of this view is that such is a demonstration to all, to include other inhabitant's of the Universe that God has accepted the choice made by all. Oh, well, it is only in eternity that we will have final answers to some questions--Gregory Matthews.] phkrause 1 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 God's ways are above ours and God doesn't need to put a dog and pony show on to....justify His determinations. Think about it, you believe that when a person dies they become as if they never existed in the 1st place. You believe (as do I) in the Resurrection of the Dead. But in your case you believe after the general judgement those who don't make it become again as if they never existed in the 1st place. Mark 14, 21: The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. Any person, according to your belief, who fails to pass the General Judgement will become as if they were never born (existed in the 1st place). Hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 27, 2023 Moderators Share Posted May 27, 2023 NOTE: I have added a response to Shane's post. Gustave: SDAs believe that God is the source of all life. This would imply that in the traditional understanding of Hell, God is actively preserving the life of the so-called lost so that God can torture them throughout eternity. From our perspective, God simply withdraws the power of life form those who have chosen not to spend eternity with God. That withdrawal of the power to live simply ends their existence. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted May 30, 2023 Moderators Share Posted May 30, 2023 The end answers everyone's questions. Those who want to continue with Jesus are welcome. But the lost are those who get trapped in a situation of of refusing to yield to their deepest desire and thus voluntarily choose death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I understand the SDA position on this but I couldn't make sense of it when compared to Mark 14, 21 and some other Scriptures. If the end result of the lost is to become as if they were never born - it's makes what Christ said about Judas and some other folks seem really odd? I would think it a benefit to become as if you never existed for the simple fact there is no pain involved in that - it would be like an execution immediately followed by absolute nothingness. Christ saying it would be better IF x, y z makes me think He wasn't thinking of annihilation of the body and soul but something else. I know I'm odd man out on this view here so I won't sweat it - just a comment, my .02 cents worth on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 4, 2023 Author Share Posted June 4, 2023 On 5/26/2023 at 8:38 PM, Gregory Matthews said: Another way to look at it would be to suggest that such was one last chance to decide to spend eternity with God. That implies that if any made the decision to spend eternity with God, that God would grant their desire. I am not sure I understand this. Certainly you are not suggesting the condemned will have a second chance to repent after the 1,000 years. The point of the original post is summarized in the end of the post. "The confession of their wickedness and God's goodness by the lost will forever set the record straight. Sin will never happen again." In the final judgement, the wicked will agree with God's judgement. That is the reason they are being resurrected only to be annihilated. phkrause 1 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 4, 2023 Author Share Posted June 4, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 10:45 PM, Gustave said: If the end result of the lost is to become as if they were never born - it's makes what Christ said about Judas and some other folks seem really odd? The lost will have to face judgement. Those that were never born do not. While Adventists do not believe in eternal torturing, facing the judgement for the lost is not going to be a light thing. phkrause 1 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 50 minutes ago, Dr. Shane said: The lost will have to face judgement. Those that were never born do not. While Adventists do not believe in eternal torturing, facing the judgement for the lost is not going to be a light thing. I'm not suggesting it would be a light thing. I'm just letting you know how odd it works out to be given what Jesus said in Luke 16, 19 -... If the common understanding of those who heard Jesus teach was yours, they would have been confounded by Jesus' teaching on the rich man and Lazarus as they would have believed that the rich man and Lazarus would have become as if they never existed after they died - the rich man wouldn't be blathering about how he wanted to warn his brothers about how horrible it was where he currently was and how well Lazarus was in his new "state" compared to his own. The people who heard Jesus when He was teaching this (if they believed as you do) wouldn't have understood it because it would have made zero sense using your rubric. The rich man dies and immediately becomes as if he never existed - gets resurrected and goes to the general judgement where subsequently he becomes as if he never existed. Why would Jesus be reduced to using a lie to teach something, a supposed lie that billions of Christians incorrectly attributed to their belief that the soul of the person continues on after death to face a particular judgement prior to the General judgement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 4, 2023 Author Share Posted June 4, 2023 18 minutes ago, Gustave said: Why would Jesus be reduced to using a lie to teach something? I don't know your religious background so I may error in making certain assumptions. I began this thread with the assumption that the readers agreed on the state of the dead. The original post was addressing the doctrine of the second resurrection - or resurrection of the lost. It was not intended to lead into a discussion on the state of the dead. You previously mentioned Mark 14:21 and I responded to that in relation to what happens to the lost after the second resurrection. Now you are switching gears to discuss the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. A new thread on that topic would probably be best so that this thread can stay focused on the second resurrection and the events associated with it. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted June 4, 2023 Share Posted June 4, 2023 I'm Roman Catholic. I realize I'm the odd man out here. Dr. Shane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 5, 2023 Author Share Posted June 5, 2023 11 hours ago, Gustave said: I'm Roman Catholic. I realize I'm the odd man out here. I work part-time as a chaplain and most of my patients are Roman Catholic. Sometimes I will call the local diocese to send a priest to visit them. Occasionally I will purchase some Catholic literature from a Catholic bookstore and give to them. As a chaplain, I minister to people of various faith backgrounds but in the geographical area where I live, most are Roman Catholic. I started another thread about the rich man and Lazarus. The second resurrection is a doctrine that many non-Adventists are not familiar with. The belief that there is a first resurrection of the righteous and then, after 1,000 years, a second resurrection of the lost, is not widely discussed in the Christian circles I have been in. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 7, 2023 Members Share Posted June 7, 2023 On 6/4/2023 at 5:27 PM, Gustave said: I'm not suggesting it would be a light thing. I'm just letting you know how odd it works out to be given what Jesus said in Luke 16, 19 -... You do realize this is a parable?? Dr. Shane 1 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 36 minutes ago, phkrause said: You do realize this is a parable?? The thing about a parable is it could happen. What you're suggesting, it appears, is Jesus couldn't think of a better way to convey a truth so He spun a yarn that aligned with what every Jew excepting the Sadducees already believed but Jesus really believed the soul was just as dead as the body and didn't know anything. I'm sorry, that's not believable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 7, 2023 Author Share Posted June 7, 2023 I think it shows that Jesus isn't as rigid as some fundamental Christians are. Some refuse to celebrate holidays like Halloween and some will not even celebrate Christmas or Easter because of connections they believe the history of the holidays have with paganism. Jesus, in telling the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, provided an example of flexibility. He incorporated Greek philosophical thought into a parable to make a larger point. That is my kind of Guy,,,, errr God. Of course, this comment probably would be better made in the other thread. Kevin H 1 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 8, 2023 Members Share Posted June 8, 2023 22 hours ago, Gustave said: The thing about a parable is it could happen. What you're suggesting, it appears, is Jesus couldn't think of a better way to convey a truth so He spun a yarn that aligned with what every Jew excepting the Sadducees already believed but Jesus really believed the soul was just as dead as the body and didn't know anything. I'm sorry, that's not believable. One of the reasons Jesus told this parable is, because most Jews believed that the rich went to heaven and the poor went to hell!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustave Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 10 minutes ago, phkrause said: One of the reasons Jesus told this parable is, because most Jews believed that the rich went to heaven and the poor went to hell!! My point - the only Jews that didn't believe in an intermediate state were the Sadducees - and we know how Jesus repudiated their errors in this specific area. The Sadducees error, according to Jesus, was that the Sadducees didn't believe Abraham and company was alive to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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