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How Should I Respond to My Homosexual Friends and Family?


phkrause

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Hi Roger,

What would you say to someone who states that they can't “help” their homosexuality? I’m thinking of someone who believes that they were born that way and that they can't help the way they feel. I'm always at a loss for words when this comes up, and I don't know exactly where to point them in Scripture.

Thanks, “L”

https://www.crosswalk.com/church/pastors-or-leadership/ask-roger/common-questions-about-homosexuality.html?

phkrause

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1}
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How should I respond: The response that we make must be grounded in two different aspects of this issue.  On the one hand we must understand what Science says about this issue.  We  do not represent our Lord well when we demonstrate ignorance about basic aspect so this issue.  Fundamental to this is the fact that our sexual preference is not an individual choice.  Neither you or I chose our sexual preference.  In addition we must understand the common terms (words) that are common to discussions of this issue.  We fail to communicate when we us demonstrate our ignorance.  We also must reflect the love of our Lord and understand both the Biblical teachings and  how those teachings are understood by this community.

One of the best SDA references devoted to how SDAs should respond to this community is:  Guiding Families of LGBT+ Loved Ones,  For Adventist Families, Ministry Leaders and All Who Care, Adventist Edition.  NOTE:  It is a special edition of a work by Bill Hanson of Lead Them Home.

The above was distributed by the North American Division in 2018, under tightly controlled circumstances and i do not know if it is still available.  contact the NAD to see if it is still available.

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Gregory

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I learned about homosexuals on the streets of Los Angeles at a very young age. Some of the first money I ever earned came from a lesbian couple to whom I sold tropical fish. Another couple had a pet shop on the way to school which had a candy counter because they liked to see the school kids come into the shop.

I don't agree with Chaplain Matthews. Some people do choose homosexuality. The field of mental health includes a significant number of homosexuals; consequently, their scientific findings cannot be believed. Additionally, homosexuals are prone to lie about the circumstances of their life. What they say can't be taken seriously. This is known by health care professionals. When doing sexual histories the interviewer is advised to frame questions in certain ways to elicit more honest responses because people LIE about their sexual practices.

Some time ago, the mother of a gay young man was very distraught over her son's sexual inclinations. She announced that her son was no longer practicing homosexuality, even though he was living with another gay young man. She knew he had changed because he told her so. Of course, it's much easier to lie than to overcome homosexual indulgence.

Gays in the church should be avoided, unless they admit homosexuality is sinful and are hoping for victory in Christ. It's pointless to "talk about it." Few want to change. Those who do find their own solutions. As part of my work, I was expected to attend meetings hosted by a gay mental health practitioner. Unbelievable, really, listening to him try to convince the mostly men in the group that their discomfort with their gay disposition was nothing to be concerned about. Most of these guys knew what they were doing was wrong. Their anxiety was multiplied by knowing they could get what was then a terminal illness. A lot of them are like alcoholics who can't stop drinking.

This issue could be the one that splits the SDA denomination. The brethren in Africa are unlikely to let the White man lead the way when it involves sodomy.

 

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Hanseng, in the post above has illustrated the divide that exists in the understanding of homosexuality.  Some people, who typically include some Christians define  homosexuality by conduct.  From this perspective, if one no longer engages in the conduct, one may be assumed to have been "cured."  Other people, including the clinical community define homo9sexuality in terms of gender preference.  This is the perspective of the mental health community.  From the perspective conduct is not the issue, as one can be a celibate homosexual.  

This is my perspective.  I once spent a year working with a large group of professionals who were providing clinical care to people infected with the Aids virus.    The group included people who claimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as their church of preference, to include actual membership.  In that group were people who told me that they were celibate, and for various reasons that I will not list, I believed them.  Yet, they strongly asserted that they were homosexual.  IOW, they did not believe that the fact that they were celibate meant that they were no longer homosexual.

In 1988, the SDA Chruch published the book, Homosexuality In History and The Scriptures, and written by Ronald M. Springett, and it was published by The Biblical  Research Institute (BRI)  of the General Conference.  I consider it to be a somewhat dated, but valuable classic, which is still available from BRI and probably from other sources.

In that book, Springett devotes 12 pages to discussing the various definitions of the word "homosexuality" and concludes (page 12) that the SDA position related to the gender preference position that I take. 

In short, I disagree with Hanseng  on a number of the statements and conclusions that he has made.

The position of the SDA Church is that celibate homosexuals may be SDA members and also hold positions of leadership.  Some will disagree with that position, but it is the position of the SDA Church.

Gregory

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For a more recent SDA discussion of homosexuality, see the 578 page, 2012 book: Homosexuality Marriage, and the Church:: Biblical, Counseling, and Religious Liberty Issues.  It deals extensively (beginning with page 345) the issue of how to define homo=sexuality, and other issues related to counseling.  It is published by the ANdrews University Press.

I recommend it as a very valuable book for anyone interested in this issue.

Amazon currently sells this book for $25.  It describes the book in the following words:

  

Some religious thought leaders, taking their cue from popular culture and current politics, are trying to make a case for biblical support of the practice of homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Their efforts create serious confusion while challenging the church's ability to sensitively address one of the most explosive spiritual and public policy issues of our time. In this volume, Christian scholars offer a deep resource of material--biblical, clinical, and legal--to untangle the complex web of questions surrounding this contested topic. The authors first provide a frank and rigorous explication of the Bible's clear teaching. Then they lay out the implications for counseling and for the religious liberty of the church and its members. And through it all, they make an impassioned call for love and care for those who are being misled into a walk down a dangerous path. The book includes moving testimonies from several Christians who have lived and struggled with homosexuality in their personal lives and can praise God for empowering them to live for Him. In the threatening environment facing the church and society today, every Christian administrator, attorney, teacher, counselor, pastor, and congregational leader should read this book.

 

   

Gregory

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6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

From the perspective conduct is not the issue, as one can be a celibate homosexual.  

Fellow by the name of [In the interests of privacy, I have removed information that might violate HIPPA.  Even partial information may violate HIPPA--Gregory Matthews.] was a celibate homosexual. He was on numerous medications for psychological problems and physical health problems. In short, being a homosexual celibate had wrecked both his psychological and physical health. Easy to see how celibacy has worked for numerous RC priests, some who are in prison and others who should be in prison. I doubt that many of those unfortunate fellows set out to become child molesters but that's where celibacy landed them. 

Well-adjusted homosexuals live their lives as best they can, like most people. They don't require ecclesiastical approval.  One of my coworkers, a big, strong, handsome homosexual man with an ~equivalent lover could be found in the chapel before starting work. My approval or disapproval was irrelevant.  Appeared to be a happy, healthy, friendly guy. He was no celibate.

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The best way to deal with homosexual friends and family is to treat them with respect, dignity, friendship - which includes minding your own business.

One of the greatest evils of Christianity is its tendency to attract to its ranks busybodies who are obsessed with what other people do in private with their genitals.

God never said "Thou shalt not think".

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In response to a post by Hanseng:

* All major denominations, to include Protestants, Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists have had problems with clergy molesting children and adults.  Those who would most want to pin this on Catholic clergy do so probably because such with Catholics is most likely to result in publicity.  In actuality in Adventism it is probably least likely to get publicity.  But, it is real and it happens.

*  People do not molest children because they are celibate.  They do not molest children because they are homosexual.   Homosexuality is separate and distinct from child molestation.   Those who asert that homosexuals are likely to molest children simply show their ignorance of the facts.

*  We as Christians have a duty to understand the truth about what we may condem and not propagate that which is false.

NOTE:  I have gone beyond a mere response to Hanseng and I am responding to aspects to which he may not have written.

 

Gregory

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6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

NOTE:  I have gone beyond a mere response to Hanseng and I am responding to aspects to which he may not have written.

Are you suggesting that pedophilia is as widespread among SDA clergy as it is among RC clergy? If so, where are all the victims?

You seem to be implying that my remarks are false. Would you also accuse "Fr." Thomas Doyle of falsehood when he says 

"The secular press, in spite of accusations to the contrary, did not sensationalize the issue
nor did it conduct a campaign of "yellow" journalism fueled by anti-Catholic bias. Although
there have been published stories about various forms of sexual misconduct by ministers of other
denominations, the fact remains that the Catholic Church is the largest single denomination in
the country. Unofficial research also points to the fact that there are many more cases of
reported sexual abuse by Catholic priests than by clergy of any other group."

Most of the reported cases of child molestation in recent times involve man on boy sex abuse. I have heard of very few cases involving girls although they certainly exist. The gay community has distanced itself for decades from the pedophile community, it's part of their playbook to legitimize themselves. The fact is that much of the molestation is of a homosexual nature, i.e., man on boy.

Chickenhawks are a subset of the gay community. They specialize in preying on younger men. Note Scott Lively's remarks:

"What I am saying is that male homosexuality identity (from the days when the ancient Spartan military routinely drafted pre-teen boys and paired them with adult homosexual men) has ALWAYS been oriented toward youth, and it is this Man/Boy sexual culture that not only spawned the modern “gay” movement but remains the largely hidden – in fact, politically protected and shielded – core of “gay” male society today."

Hollywood Chickenhawk Scandal Part One | (scottlively.net)

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11 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

The best way to deal with homosexual friends and family is to treat them with respect, dignity, friendship - which includes minding your own business.

I sort of agree with you; however, many members of the alternative sex community insist on validation. They won't leave you alone until they have revealed themselves to you and gotten your validation.

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*  As to the size of the denominations, the Roman Catholic Church is many times larger than the SDA Denomination and many other Protestant denominations.  As such it has many more clergy than do the SDA and other Protestants.  So, as to the total number of clergy accused of misconduct, the RC Church will be expected to take the lead.  A better analysis would be to attempt to compare by the per-centage of involved clergy.

*   In terms of misconduct, I generally do not attempt to distinguish between conduct between adults and children and in addition between he forms of abuse that include the physical, sexual, emotional and spiritual.  I do that because I do not believe that we should gladly proclaim that SDA clergy abuse fewer children than to Catholic clergy, while not talking about SDA clergy who abuse adult females.  

*  Yes, I have been closer to the Roman Catholic response to a RC priest fathering a child than you are aware of.  In addition, I am probably more personally aware of SDA abuse of women and children than your are aware of.  I have been involved in such on multiple levels in the SDA Church--individual, congregational and at higher levels.

*  I point out, I have recently published a statement of a final decision of the Court that has ordered a SDA organization in the United States to pay a judgment that is expected to reach $50,000,000. and the SDA insurance company expects that additional judgments in that case will in the end, double that amount.   In this case SDA Clergy were not directly involved.

*  The bottom line is that there may be some differences between how Roman Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists abuse people, but that does not give us a right to trumpet that we are the better for it.  Further, for whatever reason, in the past, the SDA Church has more often escaped publicity that the Catholics has not escaped.

Gregory

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Sexual Abuse by Priests (awrsipe.com)

Seminary training still does not prepare clergy for celibate/sexual reality. Seminary training produces many psychosexually impaired and retarded priests whose level of adjustment is adolescent at best.4. This tends to create a psychic and moral field and situations in which immature liaisons with young children not only become more possible but are psychosexually over-determined because children are actually on a developmental par with these men.

The ongoing phenomenon of the sexual abuse of minors is a worldwide problem among Roman Catholic clergy. Clergy abuse is not an American problem as proposed by Pope John Pau II, although it is remarkable here. Over all between six and nine percent (6-9%) of U.S. Catholic priests get sexually involved with minors: ten percent (10 %) have been documented in Boston. Eleven and one-half percent (11.5 %) of all the priests active from the Los Angeles Archdiocese in 1983 were subsequently identified as abusers.3 In 1988 the “Sensitive Claims Committee” of the Tucson, AZ diocese held the names of twenty-three percent (23%) of its priests.

The context of child abuse by Roman Catholic clergy—the tip of an iceberg so painfully visible to us now—does not stand on its own. Sexual abuse by clergy is the product of a well-established clerical culture. The fundamental causes of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy are within the clerical culture. Only an honest examination and Reformation of that culture will address adequately the problem of clerical malfeasance about which sex is central.

 

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The above post is an extract from a longer screed written by Richard Sipe.  in no sense does it appear to be objective.  It never mentions those issues with non-Catholic clergy.  It is true  that it is not only a Catholic problem but that the underlying issues involve both  children and adults.

This problem exists within other Christian denominations, to include the SDA Church.  It includes both children and adults.  In my professional background I have had to deal with it in the SDA Church and with both children and adults.

If we are honest and really want to deal with these issues we  will work within our own area of authority and we will not concentrate on others with whom we have no authority while ignoring the problems that include us.

Gregory

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Richard Sipe was a licensed psychiatrist who spent 20 years as a Benedictine monk. His job was to counsel and work with sexually  offensive RC priests. Along with Tom Doyle, also  a former priest they comprise a formidable and well informed duo, probably the most informed on RC sexual abuse. According to their research, the so called RC celibate culture actually creates sexual abusers by stunting normal psychosexual development. Priests do not progress beyond juvenile development; therefore they are most comfortable having sex with children. Both agree that priests are much more likely to be pedophiles than protestants because the culture of the RC priesthood facilitates it. Four distinct types of pedophiles have been identified within RC clergy. One type is genetically disposed. Another group are sociopathic types. I have described a third. 

 

Tom Doyle

Sketch  of Tom Doyle's background  3.

I was ordained Catholic priest in the Dominican Order on May 16,1970. I am an adult competent to make this affidavit. The statements in this affidavit are based upon my professional training, experience and review of the materials and records and are true and correct. I have been an expert witness and/or consultant on clergy sex abuse cases for eighteen years involving over 500 separate cases in the United States, Canada, the U .K., Ireland, France, Germany, New Zealand, Australia and Israel. I have appeared before the legislatures of the State of Pennsylvania and the State of Maryland to testify relative to child protective legislation. I have also appeared before several grand juries in the United States.

Richard Sipe

"The context of sexual abuse by Roman Catholic bishops and priests is the culture of the priesthood. Roman Catholic bishops and priests constitute a privileged cast. This persists as a centuries-long reality perpetuated by the monarchical structure essential to the operation of the Roman Catholic Church. The world of RC clergy forms the setting, circumstances, and opportunities that surround the sexual activity of bishops and priests with minors and others."

Since there is no culture in Protestantism approximating that of RC. it is highly unlikely if not impossible for any protestant church to produce one certain type of priest abuser they describe. Of course there are different types of abusers found among other religious groups

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7 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

If we are honest and really want to deal with these issues we  will work within our own area of authority and we will not concentrate on others with whom we have no authority while ignoring the problems that include us.

The reason I brought up this issue was not to bash RC but to illustrate the kind of problems Adventism is creating for itself by insisting that homosexuals remain celibate. If the denomination fellowships with homosexuals it should grant them free range. Compelling them to be celibate is cruel. It will breed hypocrisy and deception, not morality.

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