Divorce

[Gregory Matthews]

Divorce happens in Adventism.  In actual fact, the divorce rate among SDAs is close to what it is in the U.S. population at large.  The June, 2023 issue of Pacific Union Recorder, contains an article, "Divorce by the Book" written by Carlos Camarena and Charles Milles.  It iis an important article that well worthy of  thought, and it may be accessed at the following URL link. 

https://issuu.com/pacificunionrecorder/docs/0623recorder

See also a longer PhD. dissertation on this subject, by Carlos Camarena, at the following lilnk:

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/dissertations/1666/#:~:text=The unity of the Markan peri cope (Mark,to Herod's own expulsion of his Nabatean wife

 

[Dr. Shane]

14 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Divorce happens in Adventism.  In actual fact, the divorce rate among SDAs is close to what it is in the U.S. population at large. 

The study commissioned by the Family Ministries Department in 2009 indicated a 25% divorce rate among Adventists in North America.  I am not aware of the Family Ministries Department doing a more recent study.  The US divorce rate at that time was about 35%, it has since declined to about 30%.  The reason for the decline is believed to be that less people are getting married.  There is less pressure to get married thus those that do choose to get married are doing it based on their own desire and not pressure from family or society.  When another study is done, it will be interesting to see if the Adventist divorce rate will decline as well.  It could stay the same because Adventists may still feel pressured to get married by church and family which can cause poor matches to be made and thus result in divorce.

The data I have seen does indicate that the divorce rate among Adventists is slightly lower (about 10%) than that among the general public but it is 14 years old already.  Currently, the divorce rate among Adventists and those of society could be close to the same.  But, the low divorce rate (25%) among Adventists is for a different reason than society in general.  The divorce rate for society peaked at 50% during the 1980s and has steadily decline as less people get married..  The Family Ministry Departments in the SDA church has done a lot to bring in down since that time.

Adventist Families in North America

[Dr. Shane]

14 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

See also a longer PhD. dissertation on this subject, by Carlos Camarena, at the following lilnk:

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/dissertations/1666/#:~:text=The unity of the Markan peri cope (Mark,to Herod's own expulsion of his Nabatean wife

 

I agree with the conclusion in Carlos' dissertation.  I wrote a book, available on Amazon, that pretty much comes to the same conclusion.

[Hanseng]

There is actually some justification in Scripture for divorce, besides adultery:

Pr 27:15 ¶  On a stormy day drops [of rain] drive a man out of his house; so also does a railing woman [drive a man] out of his own house.

Pr 21:19 ¶  [It is] better to dwell in a wilderness than with a quarrelsome and talkative and passionate woman.

It may be that divorce is not being recommended here but obviously, separation is.

Ezra 9 contains several verses pertaining to the divorce of Israelites who had taken foreign wives.

Deuteronomy 22 contains several verses pertaining to virginity. A woman who was found to not be a virgin upon marrying would be put to death, a rather extreme form of divorce.

Then there is the "Pauline privilege" of 1 Corinthians 7:15 which apparently allows the abandoned believing spouse of an unbeliever to  remarry.

[Gregory Matthews]

I always appreciate any correction that is based upon the data.  My comment on the SDA divorce rate was simply an off-the cuff comment that did not cite any recent data.

For an interesting comment on the SDA divorce rate that is not based upon recent date see:

https://family.adventist.org/divorce-and-remarriage-in-the-seventh-day-adventist-church-what-the-divorce-statistics-say/

NOTE:  I will see if can find more recent data.  I was unable to reference such from Shane's citation.   I am not suggesting that was wrong in his citation.  It just did not work for me.  

The following website seems (I have not checked on every link.)  to provide both   more recent and older data on SDA divorce.

https://family.adventist.org/divorce-and-remarriage-in-the-seventh-day-adventist-church/

 

[Dr. Shane]

We can see if this link works.  I will just paste it instead of using the link tool.

file:///C:/Users/Student/Downloads/AdventistFamilyStudyReport2010.pdf

Focus On The Family published an article back in 2011 that disputed what they call a myth of a high divorce rate among Christians.  To really get to it, one would need to dig into the studies and look at the populations they used.  How do the studies define a Christian?  Is it a profession of faith? Monthly church attendance?  Weekly church attendance? etc.  

Regardless what the divorce rate is, there certainly is a high level of dysfunction in many Christian homes and family counseling needs to be encouraged more.  I would like more Conferences to give pastors an option of earning a MFT degree instead of an MDiv degree.  It would be a good thing for every conference to have a few MFTs pastoring churches.

 

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Dr. Shane said:

I would like more Conferences to give pastors an option of earning a MFT degree instead of an MDiv degree.  It would be a good thing for every conference to have a few MFTs pastoring churches.

The influence of social scientists and psychologists has had a toxic impact on Adventism. The work of any Christian church is to preach Christ, i.e., to tell the story of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection. The feigned prayers of SDA psychologists hardly go above the ceiling because many, if not most, do not believe the gospel.

An acquaintance of mine, a former navy pilot and Annapolis graduate often went to the officer's club and hoped his wife would be gone when he got home. Along the way, he met some Christians from the International Church of Christ. They shared the gospel with him. he believed, and his marriage was healed. That's the way the gospel works.

[Dr. Shane]

An argument can be made that secular (non-religious) counseling can harm the church's gospel mission.  That wouldn't happen if all counselors followed the industry's ethics.  However, there are some counselors that do not always respect their clients' religious beliefs.  These counselors may disparage a client's religion and cause the client to question what he believes.  I would like to believe that is not a common occurrence. 

Counseling is not the same as psychotherapy.  A counselor and a psychologist are not the same.  Those terms are not interchangeable.  A counselor helps people deal with 1. difficult transitions in life, or 2. interpersonal relationships that are problematic.  A counselor is schooled in psychology but is not the same as a psychologist.  I am a counselor but I am not a psychologist.  My master's degree is in marriage and family therapy (MFT) and my doctorate is in clinical pastoral counseling.  My doctorate is from a seminary. 

I am a Christian counselor.  I am an ordained independent minister and my counseling license is from the National Christian Counselor's Association.  In Adventist circles, that is comparable to a minister's license issued by a Conference.   One of the problems I find myself helping people with is developing a relationship with Christ.  Far too many Christians have only an academic knowledge of God.  Their religion is dry and legalistic.  I am consistently teaching clients about righteousness by faith.  I show them the psychology that supports the Biblical teaching that we need the body of Christ (Hebrews 10:25).  I emphasize our need to pray, maintain an attitude of gratitude (1 Thess. 5:16-18) and study the Bible (2 Tim. 2:15).  

A Christian counselor does not push his or her religious beliefs on the client.  Rather we explain what they are and why we hold them in such a way that the client is invited to test solutions in their lives based on Biblical teachings that are supported by psychological evidence established by empirical studies. We give reason for the hope we have (1 Ptr 3:15).  We invite them to taste and see that the Lord is good (Ps. 34:8).  But we do not moralize.  We do not try to coerce them by any means.  We lift up our Lord so that He can draw them unto Himself (John 12:32).

Edited June 27, 2023 by Dr. Shane
grammer

[Gregory Matthews]

It is true that a counselor may not be a psychologist.  However a psychologist may be a counselor.  In fact, the field of Counseling Psychology is a separate discipline and it is a part of the general field of psychology.  This is one example of a psychologist who is a counselor.

 

 

[Dr. Shane]

The term counselor can be applied to many professions.  A medical doctor and a lawyer are called counselors by some.  Within the mental healthcare system, psychologists are not normally referred to as counselors (unless they are working in the capacity of a counselor and some do).  That includes in articles published by the media.  If a psychologist is quoted, he or she is supposed to be cited as a psychologist and not a counselor.  The term counselor is used in academic settings for school counselors.  School counselors are not considered to be part of the mental healthcare system although they are considered first responders.  For the most part, the term counselor, used by itself, will refer to either a spiritual or a mental health counselor, neither of which is a psychologist.  Both of those should have psychological training if they are using the title counselor. 

Of note, a psychologist may have either a master's degree or a doctorate.  The APA has been after the Associated Press to refer to psychologists with a doctorate as a "doctor".  Currently the AP will simply refer to them as a psychologist.  The APA would like the distinction made because simply using the term psychologist doesn't mean the person has earned a doctorate.  The term therapist is used by both psychologists and counselors so that makes the waters even more murky.  Pastoral counselors (like me) are not supposed to call themselves therapists unless they are licensed by a civil authority.

Getting back to Hanseng's concern, I do know that some fundamentalist Christians are concerned about the influence of psychology on the church.  I don't share that concern.  However, if there is any reason for concern, it would be regarding the work of psychologists, rather than counselors, that they should be concerned about.  I believe the concern by fundamentalists, in regard to counselors, is a result of them not understanding the difference between a counselor and a psychologist.  Moreover, they seem to believe that a gospel minister that becomes a Christian counselor is somehow corrupted by psychology like an ancient Israelite worshipping Baal.   

[Hanseng]

36 minutes ago, Dr. Shane said:

The term counselor can be applied to many professions.

I refer to various individuals who take people's money and do them no good or harm them as "mental health professionals."  These people often encourage masturbation, gender confusion, same sex relationships and various other forms of abominable behavior. Many don't believe in a spiritual world that includes a devil or demons or a Messiah. Talk of Divine intervention or Satanic influences are dismissed and suspect, could even bring about or contribute to a psychiatric hold.  Usually, there is psychiatric medication or long term counselling involved. Practitioners may be M.D.s, LCSWs, MFCC, Psy.Ds.

Fornication, adultery, and lawsuits are sometimes byproducts of pastoral counselling.

Jesus doesn't require years to heal someone. He can and does heal people of guilt through faith in his shed blood. Laura Schlessinger once told a caller, burdened under a load of guilt to just "carry it." That's the kind of help that an MFCC offers, just carry your guilt. Jesus offers purging and forgiveness. That's gospel mental health. Weekly counselling and psych meds are just about the same as witchcraft.

[Dr. Shane]

This thread was originally about marriage and divorce.  That said, remember I did say that some counselors may disparage a client's religion and cause the client to question what he believes.  Counselors that "encourage masturbation, gender confusion, same sex relationships and various other forms of abominable behavior" should not be doing that if their clients express moral convictions against such things.  A counselor, regardless of their own personal beliefs, should never disparage the client's religious convictions.

There are many times a counselor is providing support to a client that is being treated by another professional such as a psychologist or psychiatrist.  MFT counselors may find themselves working with a family that has a member being treated by such a professional.  Counselors tend to work with people that 1. are going through a difficult transition in life, or 2. have interpersonal relationships that are problematic.  A counselor may "help" a person being treated by a psychologist or psychiatrist but the counselor's focus will be on an issue like their relationship with other people - not necessarily the diagnosed condition they are being treated for by the other professional.

I doubt many Christian counselors encourage masturbation, gender confusion, same sex relationships and various other forms of abominable behavior.  I doubt if Conferences gave pastors an MFT option instead of a MDiv that it would lead to pastors encouraging masturbation, gender confusion, same sex relationships and various other forms of abominable behavior.  I believe that more pastors with an MFT would be beneficial to SDA families.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Dr. Shane said:

 

Shane, You have your field of work. I hope you will be blessed in doing it. The work if a Christian counsellor is to introduce clients to Jesus Christ. If they are adamant in their rejection of Jesus as the solution to their problems, refer them to someone else. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane:  I also believe that it would be of value if more SDA pastors had a MFT license, not just a degree.  However, I believe that such should be a 2nd degree and that the first should  be the Master of Divinity as a pastor should first of all have the religious degree.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Hanseng;  i will suggest that the work of the pastor to introduce people the  Jesus Christ, as the overall solution to their problems.  I do not agree with   your suggestion that the Christian Counselor should abandon people who are rejecting Christ as the solution to their problems.  Those are the people need continued help from Christians and if required, and be provided absent reference to Christ.  You comment in that respect is a rejection of the Biblical standard for ministry to people who do not know Christ.

[Hanseng]

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

You comment in that respect is a rejection of the Biblical standard for ministry to people who do not know Christ

Actually, Scripture is quite clear that recalcitrant individuals, i.e., those who intentionally and with purpose reject Christ, should be shunned.  Notice that I referred to those who are "adamant in their rejection of Christ." I met a lot of these types in my work with AIDS patients. Many of them had a knowledge of Christ but refused to submit to Him. I have an acquaintance like that now. He learned about Jesus years ago but continues in his devotion to images of wood and stone  I recall in particular the son of a pastor. He had AIDS but was very clear in denying Christ. These types hate Jesus, Christians, and church. 

The ICOC [lnternational] Church of Christ] had a very successful soul winning program, adding thousands of college age youth to their congregations. Their policy was to work with compliant individuals, i.e., not waste time with argumentative types. Similar to what Jesus said: Shake the dust off your feet against those who reject you.

The work of a Christian pastor is to lead people to Christ who is the solution to the problems of mankind. That is the work of any true counsellor. From what I observed, most psychologist types have no redemptive knowledge themselves; consequently, they cannot give to others what they lack. Some, perhaps most, do more harm than good.

[Dr. Shane]

8 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Shane:  I also believe that it would be of value if more SDA pastors had a MFT license, not just a degree.  However, I believe that such should be a 2nd degree and that the first should  be the Master of Divinity as a pastor should first of all have the religious degree.  

There are a few of issues with this proposal.  First, it implies that to be a real pastor one needs to have an MDiv.  Second, an MDiv is 72 credits which is about 2 1/2 years of graduate school.  An MFT is 60 credits, which is 2 years of graduate plus 2 years of internship.  Requiring that amount of schooling not only discourages pastors from that option but also means they will spend less years actually ministering to families as an MFT.  Third, there is the expense involved.  If Conferences are going to subsidize this training, why pay for someone to earn an MDiv when they are going to be primarily ministering as an MFT.

An analogy is the difference between an MD and a DDS.  That is a physician and a dentist.  Do we want to require someone to get both an MD and a DDS?  Of course not.  An MFT is a specialized counselor.  In my graduate studies, many of our classes used Spirit of Prophecy books as the text book.  One class we had to try and diagnose various Bible characters with psychological disorders.  We were trained how to lead people to make Christ the center of their home.  

Of course we would want these pastors to do an internship.  As for getting their license, I think that could be a good idea but I know some are concerned about legal liability a conference may be exposed to. I say, that is what we have insurance for.  I know some Adventist pastors that have an LPC license.  In many cases, if the pastors had their license, and the client had insurance, the Conference could actually bill for the services.

Many Christian counselors in the US choose not to get a civil license because there can be issues with some of the things Hensang mentioned here.  The National Christian Counselor's Association has over 5,000 counselors in their network using their pastoral counseling license.  Some health insurance companies honor the NCCA license and pay for the pastoral counseling services.   Many of them do not have a civil license.  I probably will apply for a civil license eventually.   I am currently enrolled for Fall semester at Texas A&M.  There are a handful of counseling classes Texas wants me to take that were not part of the curriculum in Mexico I will need to pick up before I apply.  But I am sympathetic to those that choose not to get a civil license.

[Hanseng]

Shane, Sounds as if you did much of your study in Mexico. Learning to use the Bible and SOP to help people is significantly different from what I experienced at an SDA college in the States. The instructor routinely trashed EGW, ridiculed her with exaggerations and distortions of her teachings regarding moral virtue. It took the school ~20 years to finally fire the guy. He should have never been hired to teach in a Christian environment. As my post evinces, I've had some unfortunate experiences with mental health professionals, very few good experiences but one I clearly remember. Christian counsellors who pointed me to Jesus, forever grateful.

There was a well-known psychiatrist in an Adventist community. He got caught up in the latest psych fad of that time which was encounter therapy. One of his patients actually killed his wife in a rage right in the psychiatrist's office. That sort of thing will probably not happen when Jesus is the focus.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane, your have and MFT and I do not challenge your degree.  However,  when I recommended that SDA counselors obtain a license to practice counseling, I was suggesting a civil license obtained by the State in which the person lives.  I was not including the professional organization that you cited.   SDA pastors are required to comply with State law.

I once lived in a State where I had to obtain a State license in order to perform a marriage that was recognized by the State.  I  am personally aware of a local SDA Congregational pastor who did not obtain such a license and got in trouble with the civil authorities when he signed the license and the State discovered that he had not obtained a State license.  The Conference immediately had to notife all pastors that they had to be licensed by the State before performing any marriages.   NOTE:  Military chaplain assigned to that State  also  had to comply.

Your comments related to the MDiv. and ordination could result in some misunderstanding.  In actual fact, SDA pastors are typically required to intern for from three to five years prior to ordination.  Yes, I am aware of exception in which some interned for longer periods of time, and some for less time. But the 3 - 5 year period is the standard.

Your statement as to the typical work of the SDA pastor also reflects a lack of knowledge.  The primary work of a  SDA pastor  is not the same as  that of the  MFT person.  The primary work of the SDA pastor is much more religious  and much less counseling.  The MFT person does more counseling than the typical SDA pastor.

The  typical trained MFT person is  better qualified to do counseling than is the MDiv person.  My recommendation continues to be that for the pastor, the MDiv. be the first degree, and any academic work in counseling be related to a second degree.

On a personal basis I have a graduate degree in Counseling Psychology.  That degree is slightly different from a MFT degree.  But, it is a degree in Counseling.  I meet all of the requirements to obtain State licensure as a counselor, with the following exceptions:  1)  I have not taken the State licensure examination.  2)  I have not applied for a State license.  That is true for my living in more than one State in the U.S.

There is a reason why I have not taken the examination and applied for a State license.   That reason is because I am first of all a SDA pastor and I do not want to work as a licensed counselor.  

There is a place for SDA pastors to become clergy working outside of the congregational setting.  Those places may include the military, hospitals, government employment, prisons and   in other situations.  The standard educational requirement for such employment is teh MDiv. degree.  It is not the MFT degree.  The SDA denomination has more people wanting to become clergy than the denomination can employ.  That excess of people must work   in those situations outside of the congregational setting.  The standard educational requirement is the MDiv degree.  The MFT simply does not satisfy the standard educational requirement.

NOTE:  My comments apply to the United States.  Thay may be the same in some other nations.  They may differ in some other countries.

Your statement reflects a lack of understanding of the work of the SDA pastor.  Both the MFT trained person and the MDiv trained person can contribute to the ministry of the SDA denomination.  They should not be confused and the MDiv should remain the first degree requirement for the SDA pastor.

[Hanseng]

Interesting post, Chaplain Matthews. I was a community chaplain in the state prison system. When the then current chaplain was resigning to become a church pastor, he asked me if I wanted the job. Of course I did but I wasn't ordained.

A bachelor's degree, not an M.Div., is required. Ordination is mandatory. Appears that the requirements are more rigorous than before.

RC deacons can be  employed as chaplains. Also converts to RC from other communions who are married sometimes work as prison chaplains. In this respect RC has moved ahead of other Protestant bodies in that ordained deacons, not  priests, can work in the prison system.

I worked in a woman's prison for a while. Looked in the chapel one day and saw the chaplain kissing a woman. Fortunately,  I was able to have a chat with him. He explained that he was a married former Episcopalian priest. I assumed the woman he was kissing was his wife. Not sure how he could bring his wife into the prison. Anyway, chaplaincy  is a great work. The Jewish chaplain of a major Jewish medical center was a great soul who I really hope to see in heaven. His weekly torah studies were incredible! 

Protestant Chaplain (ca.gov)

[Gregory Matthews]

In my comment, I gave the generally accepted requirements.  Those are the required by the Federal government and for Federal chaplains, with the exception of U.S. military chaplains who have a different set or requirements, which I did not list  Now    for individual comments:

*  In a decision of a Federal court, in a lawsuit, in which I was a named party. a Federal judge ruled that the requirement for  Ordination is illegal and as a result, ordination is not required to be any type of Federal Chaplain.  None at all.  Now the required standard for Federal chaplains in endorsement.  

*  Roman Catholic Deacons are considered clergy by the Roman Catholic Church.  However, the Roman Catholic church will only endorse priests to be chaplains.  The Roman Catholic Chruch will not endorse deacons to be chaplains.  They may serve as Deacons performing some functions of the clergy.  But, they can not perform all of the functions of the priest.   you have mis-understood this one.  NOTE:  As a military chaplain I was fully informed as to the official requirements by the Roman Catholic  Church for their chaplains.  Federal chaplains must be authorized to perform all sacramental functions of their denominational clergy.  Roman Catholic Deacons are not so authorized.

*  The Seventh-day Adventist Chruch has had some hospitals who have hired chaplains who have not met the requirements that I am listing.  I have to assume that such is also  true for some other small hospitals.  Gradually official  health-care accrediting agencies are forcing healthcare organizations of comply with the generally accepted standards that I have listed.  In my prior service as a Federal hospital chaplain, I am well aware of that.  

*  The bottom line is this:  Standards are developing and past practices are changing.  People who wish to be employed in the chaplain field, had better meet the standards taht I list, if they want to find and keep such employment.

*  NOTE:  I spent 4-years in mentoring a very wealthy attorney in meeting the requirements to become employed as a Federal chaplain, which he eventually met.  I generally met with him for from 2 to 4 times a week for those years.  As he said to me:  It is time that I did something for the Lord.  That was his motive for wanting to change.  A person of his wealth and political stature (It went very high up in government.) would not have been coming to me for several years id he had not known that I had the information and skills needed to assist him.  Part of my work with him was to supervise his visitation of hospital patients.  Chaplains to  intern.

On his political stature:   He booked a flight to Washington DC, on an Monday morning.  After he did that he called the office of a Cabinet Secretary and said:  I will be in town Monday afternoon, and I want an hour with the Secretary between 1 PM and 3 PM.  He got it and flew back home the same day.

*  There is no easy way to become a chaplain.  People who are not willing to meet the requirements and simply looking for the easy way to such, should not be serving as such.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hanseng]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

*  Roman Catholic Deacons are considered clergy by the Roman Catholic Church.  However, the Roman Catholic church will only endorse priests to be chaplains.  The Roman Catholic Chruch will not endorse deacons to be chaplains.  They may serve as Deacons performing some functions of the clergy.  But, they can not perform all of the functions of the priest.   you have mis-understood this one. 

The RC chaplain I worked with in a California prison was a deacon.

There was a long time SDA community chaplain [volunteer]was offered a job when the then current chaplain retired. He went to the conference office; told them he could get a job with the State in the prison if he was ordained. They ordained him and he became the prison chaplain.

[Gregory Matthews]

*  I do not challenge your statement that a Roman Catholic Deacon visited prisoners at a prison where you worked.  RC Deacons and others could visit patients at the VA hospital where I worked.

*  Federal Chaplains, of whatever type, are required to be fully qualified to provide all sacramental services needed by their denomination.  RC Deacons are not authorized to provide all of such services.

*   I do not challenge that the person you worked with was called a chaplain.  However that would have been in violation of the policy of the Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA.

*  It is also true that Roman Catholic policy in some tightly controlled situations will allow a Deacon to assist a priest in the visitation of others, in a manner not typically allowed.  But, this is not a full authorization to administer all Sacramental services.

*  The following quotation is from the Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA.  This organization if the official Roman Catholic Organization that supervises all Roman Catholic clergy serving, in the United States, as Chaplains outside of the employment in the Roman Catholic Church. 

NOTE:  During my service as a Federal Chaplain, I maintained a current copy of the Priests Mannal which governed that provision of Roman Catholic ministry outside of the Roman Catholic Church.  It clearly oly authorized priest to serve as Chaplains,

By the way, Hanseng, I welcome your participation in this discussion.  Feel free to continue to contribute.

The Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA (AMS) is entrusted with the pastoral care of 1.8 million Catholics in the United States and around the world. This number includes men and women serving in the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Space Force, and Coast Guard and their families; patients in Veterans Affairs Medical Centers; and employees and families of the U.S. Federal Government outside the borders of the United States. To ensure these Catholics have the pastoral care to which they are entitled by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA is the sole endorsing agent recognized under U.S. law and the Department of Defense to endorse Catholic priests to minister in the U.S. Armed Forces and Department of Veterans Affairs.

[Dr. Shane]

16 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Shane, your have and MFT and I do not challenge your degree.  However,  when I recommended that SDA counselors obtain a license to practice counseling, I was suggesting a civil license obtained by the State in which the person lives.  I was not including the professional organization that you cited.   SDA pastors are required to comply with State law.

State laws are very important.  In most states, one only has to be ordained by a religious organization that has a 501(c)3 status with the IRS to call themselves a pastoral counselor.  They can even be ordained as simply a deacon (not that there is anything wrong with being a deacon and it would be great if we had qualified deacons counseling).  However, a few states regulate pastoral counselors and provide license for them.  In those states, those seeking license not only need to be ordain as a minister but also need to have a master's degree in counseling or a related field.  So, yes, state law is very important.  I agree.

[Dr. Shane]

16 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Your comments related to the MDiv. and ordination could result in some misunderstanding.  In actual fact, SDA pastors are typically required to intern for from three to five years prior to ordination.  Yes, I am aware of exception in which some interned for longer periods of time, and some for less time. But the 3 - 5 year period is the standard.

 

I stand corrected.  I knew that and did not mention it.  In fact, taking into consideration the internship (which should be considered) Adventist pastors with a doctorate are among the highest educated members of society.  I don't think a lot of people realize that.  My mentor (who I call all the time for guidance) has a PhD in Old Testament and is about to finish his DMin.