Divorce

[Dr. Shane]

16 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Your statement as to the typical work of the SDA pastor also reflects a lack of knowledge.  The primary work of a  SDA pastor  is not the same as  that of the  MFT person.  The primary work of the SDA pastor is much more religious  and much less counseling.  The MFT person does more counseling than the typical SDA pastor.

Yes, I understand that.  I wasn't clear in what I was suggesting.  Just like a conference has a Family Ministry Director and those that work in the trust department, I think Conferences should have some MFTs employed that can do counseling with members via Zoom.  Perhaps very large churches could have a pastoral counselor on staff but there are not a lot of churches that large in the NAD.

[Dr. Shane]

16 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is a reason why I have not taken the examination and applied for a State license.   That reason is because I am first of all a SDA pastor and I do not want to work as a licensed counselor.  

That is a good reason not to apply for state license.  You may also have to do the 3,000-hour internship too if you haven't.  In Texas one gets a provisional license after a 300-hour practicum and the full license after the 3,000-hour internship.  I had not planned to apply for my state license because I do not plan to ever do it full-time and am more interested in chaplaincy in immigration detention centers.  However, one of my best friends at our church is an associate professor.  He and his wife are both LPCs.  They convinced me to move forward for my license.  Texas requires some classes that I didn't take at Montemorelos so I decided to take one per semester and not stress myself out.  I am in no rush.  After two more classes I can apply for my LCDC license.  Then I will have to do the 300-hour practicum to apply for the MFT.  Then the 3000-hour internship.  My situation is cool because I don't need to look for a job.  I can do both my practicum and my internship at the counseling ministry that I run.  I simply have to meet with a supervising counselor once a week to review my cases and log my hours.  I have interviewed two supervising counselors already and am leaning toward a Catholic priest because he is also a prison chaplain.

But I do treat homosexuals for moral incongruency.  That is not conversation therapy but when a pastoral counselor gets a state license they can have problems with the state if one of their clients reports them for something they don't like.  That can be prayer or Bible reading.  So, pastoral counselors with a state license need to cover a number of things on their intake form and really be clear about what they are treating when they get into issues like homosexuality and gender dysphoria.  I know many pastoral counselors that will not seek state licensure because they want to avoid conflicts with the state.  My supervising counselor for my doctorate has her own ministry in San Antonio.  She has years of experience, multiple master's degrees and multiple doctorates and will not seek state licensure. 

[Hanseng]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

*  I do not challenge your statement that a Roman Catholic Deacon visited prisoners at a prison where you worked.  RC Deacons and others could visit patients at the VA hospital where I worked.

He didn't just "visit" inmates. He had an office and an 8 hour a day job with commensurate salary.  No volunteer chaplain at that place had his own office, even though we might access an office on occasion. This was a State prison, as was every one of the several I worked in. The State and Federal prison systems are different. It was twenty years ago I worked in the State prison system at the following institutions: CMF, Vacaville, Solano, Mule Creek, Folsom, CSP Sacramento and the woman's prison in Stockton. I also worked in 3 of the county "prisons" i.e., juvenile facility, R Triple C, and Downtown Sacramento.

Whatever your book might say, I can assure you that a Roman Catholic deacon served as a chaplain at CSP, Sacramento. He had the picture of a young boy on his desk as well. Not saying he said mass or performed marriages but he was employed by the State of California as a Roman Catholic chaplain.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Dr. Shane said:

That is not conversation therapy but when a pastoral counselor gets a state license they can have problems with the state if one of their clients reports them for something they don't like.  That can be prayer or Bible reading.

Amen to that. There are certain individuals that are with purpose looking to destroy Christians. Even meeting with them can subject you to false accusations and problems you don't want to deal with. Could easily cost you your job. Even if the client doesn't object or even welcomes spiritual intervention on your part, "colleagues" who find out could make a lot of trouble for you.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Dr. Shane said:

I think Conferences should have some MFTs employed that can do counseling with members via Zoom.

Where is the salary for these individuals going to come from?

[Gregory Matthews]

Hanseng & Shane:

* l believe that in the United States, some Local Conferences have an arrangement by which people who alege that they have been abused by the SDA Church may be evaluated and counseled by licensed counselors, at no expense to the individual, and with no  identification of the individual to the Local Conference.

NOTE:  I intend the above to  be a general statement and individual aspects of what I have stated may differ from Conference to Conference.  There may be limits on the amount of such counseling provided.

*  I wish that I could identify the Local Conferences that have entered into such a relationship.  I think that I know of at least one such Conference, but I am not able to verify it.  So, I can not provide any such names.

*  As to the question of payment for such services, that comes from the Conference in a manner provided by the agreement.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hanseng:

In regard to your listing the various prisons where you have been employed:  I have a son, who recently retired from  working for more than 20 years at one of the prisons you mention.  He served as a Correctional Officer.  He was well acquainted with the Chaplain staff at that prison.

By way of interest, what was your position at the California prisons where you worked?

I think that I will ask him how I can contact the chaplain staff to discuss this issue.

My comments have been two-fold:

1)  They have applied to the Federal system.

2)  They have stated that the Roman Catholic Chruch, will not endorse a Deacon to serve as a Chaplain.  I think taht I will contact taht RC agency and ask  if they have changed their position.  If so, I will publish it.

 

NOTE:  I appreciate this discussion, and the manner in which you are posting.  I have no objection to people disagreeing with what I have stated.  I am interested in truth.  When I am wrong, I deserve to be corrected.    Continue to engage me.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

For the information of all, I have sent the following message to an authorative leader in the Roman Catholic Chruch.  His response will settle the matter.

 

Monsignor Jeffery G. Laible:

I am a retired Protestant Chaplain for the U.S. Army and the VA.  During my military and VA service I was supervised twice by a Roman Catholic Chaplain (In once case directly assisting him.) and worked closely with a local RC Priest to coordinate RC Coverage to patients in the hospital where I worked. 

 

Certainly, I am aware that Deacons and Lay Eucharistic Leaders visited hospitalized patients.  In my experience Deacons were never authorized to serve as employed Chaplains due to the fact that Deacons were not authorized to provide the full range of Sacramental services that could be provided by a priest. 

 

I am currently engaged in an Internet discussion in which one person is claiming that the Roman Catholic Church allows Deacons to serve as Chaplains in California prisons.  The following is one such statement of his:

 

Whatever your book might say, I can assure you that a Roman Catholic deacon served as a chaplain at CSP, Sacramento. He had the picture of a young boy on his desk as well. Not saying he said mass or performed marriages but he was employed by the State of California as a Roman Catholic chaplain.

 

NOTE:  His reference to my "book"  refers to a statement I made as to the Priests Manual published by the RC Endorsing Agency.

 

I am interested truth.  I want to be accurate in any statement that I may make about another denomination.

 

In the interests of truth,  Please clairfy:  Does the Roman Catholic Church presently endorse Deacons, who are not fully authorized to provide sacramental services, to serves as Chaplains?

 

Thank you for your attention to this.

 

Gregory Matthews

 

[Hanseng]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

By way of interest, what was your position at the California prisons where you worked?

1, Community chaplain [volunteer] at CMF and CSP, Sacramento.

2. R.N employed by contract at other places. I went where there was a need.

The chaplain at the woman's prison told me that his employment was on the down low, i.e. married priests were more or less kept out of sight. Probably most people would say the RC communion doesn't allow married priests but it does or did, if they were former Anglican priests who were married before their switch to RC.

Since my information came directly from the deacon chaplain and my observation of his presence, I'll stand by it. 

Catholic Chaplain

 

See point 2 under qualifications:

"A lay person or ordained deacon, with demonstrated pastoral competence, duly accredited for pastoral ministry by a nationally recognized Roman Catholic chaplain certification institution; and approved by the Bishop of the diocese in which the institution is located."

[Gregory Matthews]

So, if you were a "community chaplain," what denomination did you represent?  All chaplains represent a denomination.

[Hanseng]

48 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

So, if you were a "community chaplain," what denomination did you represent?  All chaplains represent a denomination.

Actually not. I represented Jesus. I baptized 8 people into the body of Christ, not a denomination. When appointed to this task, I protested, since I had never been ordained. The "real" chaplain said it was necessary because the inmates were being transferred and he had a scheduling conflict.

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K  Much of what you have said is highly irregular.  That does not mean that it did not happen.  I am not challenging you.

I assume that you were not one of the regular prison visitors sent by one of our Sacramento area congregations to visit prisoners?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I have received a helpful response from the official agency that  supervises certain Roman Catholic Chaplains.

In short:

*  I was correct as to what I said.

*  Hansang was correct in what he said.

I will explain.

*  Roman Catholic clergy must be approved by the Roman Catholic Church in order to serve as a Chaplain.  The only RC agency that can approve RC Clergy to serve in the agencies that I mentioned, is the agency that I mentioned.  That agency onlly approves Roman Catholic priests and does not approve Deacons.  In addition those agencies that I mentioned will  only approve clergy that are fully authorized to provide all Sacramental services.

*  The local Roman Catholic Bishop has the authority to approve those who are called chaplains and are serving in agencies other than those required to be approved by the agency that mentioned.   In those cased the local Bishop may approve a Deacon to serve in a Chaplain in an agency that does not require the Chaplain to be fully authorized to provide all Sacramental services.

From my perspective now, both  Hansang and I were correct.  I was incorrect in my belief that  Hansang was not correct in what he was saying.  I am always willing to be corrected.  I appreciate the spirit in which  Hanaang has argued with me.  That contributes to the overall discussions of this forum.

This form exists to bring together people who differ n their views, in civil discussions of their differences.   Hansang has contributed in that manner.

 

 

[Dr. Shane]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

So, if you were a "community chaplain," what denomination did you represent?  All chaplains represent a denomination.

International Ministerial Fellowship is a nondenominational evangelical organization that provides credentials (including endorsement for chaplaincy) to ministers.  They are not associated with a specific denomination.  Below is their website.

https://imfserves.org/

 

[Dr. Shane]

20 hours ago, Hanseng said:

 Even if the client doesn't object or even welcomes spiritual intervention on your part, "colleagues" who find out could make a lot of trouble for you.

There is an informed consent form that counselors should have their clients sign before providing services.  In that form, the client agrees to allow the counselor to pray, read the Bible and provide teaching consistent with the the counselor's understanding of the Bible.  Specifically regarding homosexuality, I have an intake form that states counseling is for moral incongruence and is not conversion therapy.  It goes on to detail the difference.  Thus it is "informed consent".  The client consents to the counseling being fully informed.  It is also provides a legal defense if the counselor is accused of conversation therapy.  Moral incongruence is a billable condition with health insurance.  Non-religious counselors that treat "pornography addiction" often use the moral incongruence diagnosis because psychologically speaking, there is no such thing as pornography addiction.  At least, it isn't listed in the DSM-5.

[Dr. Shane]

20 hours ago, Hanseng said:

Where is the salary for these individuals going to come from?

The Conference would pay the salary.  That may require the Conference hire a few less pastors for the districts.  Thus, a few districts may become three-church districts instead of two-church districts.  But, the MFT pastors could be required to preach once a month at conference churches to help the district pastors.  It is just an idea.  The SDA denomination is emphasizing mental health more in recent years but no conference is ordaining counselors that I am aware of.  I think the reluctance is due to liability.  However, within other denominations, there are churches that ordain pastoral counselors.  If I live long enough, and God steers Happiness Ministry in that direction, I would like to develop an internship process for ordaining pastoral counselors. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane:

 

The word "denomination" is often loosely used as it can have several meanings.  I probably could have been  more precise. 

So, your are ordained by the Innternational Ministerial Fellowship.   I accept that.  in the past, there was a time where your IMF could have served as an Endorsing Agency that was authorized to supply clergy to the military to serve as chaplains.  There were organizations such as your IMF that did supply clergy to the  military as chaplains.

But, some years ago.  that all changed, for reasons that I do not need to cite here.  As a result, those agencies had their approval rescinded.  All clergy endorsed by them were told to either obtain endorsement elsewhere or leave military service.

Congress became involved.   The result of that was that the Department of  Defense has now became the agency that approved the Endorsing Agents for all Federal Chaplains and uniform standards were enacted for Federal Chaplains, with some exceptions for the military chaplains.

The listing of Approved Endorsing Agencies is public property.  I have reviewed it and your IMF is not an approved agency.  So, clergy ordained by the IMF, are not authorized to serve as Federal Chaplains.

To review that list, see:

https://prhome.defense.gov/M-RA/MPP/AFCB/Endorsements/

 

[Dr. Shane]

14 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

So, your are ordained by the International Ministerial Fellowship.   I accept that.  in the past, there was a time where your IMF could have served as an Endorsing Agency that was authorized to supply clergy to the military to serve as chaplains.  There were organizations such as your IMF that did supply clergy to the  military as chaplains.

To review that list, see:

https://prhome.defense.gov/M-RA/MPP/AFCB/Endorsements/

 

I am not ordained by IMF.  I am just familiar with them.  I belong to an Adventist chaplain group locally.  There are about eight of us Adventist chaplains in the area where I live.  So we talk about these things.  IMF is on the list at the link you provided.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Dr. Shane said:

The Conference would pay the salary. 

In all likelihood. that money would originate from tithe. The SDA use of tithe and its collection is not Biblical but there are other denominations which extract tithe from their congregants. The Filipino Iglesia Ni Christo is one. Their Founder was a former SDA pastor. So, forgetting about the Bible, and just following SDA polity, the tithe is supposed to go to clergy for the preaching of the gospel. Mental health counselors are not pastors, Bible workers, theology professors.

AFM employees, individuals who are pioneering missionaries, can't receive tithe. Ironically, a pastor can sit in his office and collect tithe, while he accomplishes nothing that an honestly employed church member could not do. An AFM worker has to go around like a beggar to get support to do the work tithe should finance.

It's entirely possible that a conference will support a conference counselor, contributing to the milieu of propping up dying congregants, making them helplessly dependent upon ministerial labor but that won't make it right.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane,  I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you told me you were ordained by them.  So, correct me.  Who ordained you as clergy?  I believe that you present yourself as having been ordained by some group.

 

[Dr. Shane]

3 minutes ago, Hanseng said:

 Mental health counselors are not pastors, Bible workers, theology professors.

Words have meanings.  You are correct that mental health counselors are not pastors.  Take note of my title in my signature.  Pastoral family counselor.  

A mental health counselor is not the same thing as a pastoral counselor.  A pastoral counselor must be ordained.  That is true in every state in the US that I am aware of.  Some states allow ordained deacon or elders.  Thus it is important to know the law in whichever state one is in.  My point here is that pastoral counselors are considered pastors from a legal point of view.  I think there are six states that actually have pastoral counseling license that are required to be a pastoral counselor.  Due to the lack of regulation in most states, clients need to pay close attention to the qualifications of the pastoral counselor they work with.  That typically comes from the church that has provided them a ministerial license.  In my case, that is the National Christian Counseling Association - they have a network of over 5,000 pastoral counselors. 

Now a counselor can become both a mental health counselor and a pastoral counselor.  They are related but not one and the same.  It is like an air conditioning technician and a refrigeration technician.  Those are two closely related occupations  but yet separate and distinct.  If I ever get a state MFT or LCDC license, then I would be both a pastoral and mental health counselor.  I doubt the Adventist church would ever do what I have suggested simply because of the liability.  

Some Christian counselors, and the churches that support them, do not want state license because they believe the counselor's authority comes from the church which, in their belief, is a higher authority than the state.  They feel it is like a step down for the church to seek approval from the state to provide counseling services.  I do not think that belief is very strong in Adventist circles.  I interact with a lot of non-Adventist clergy and among evangelical circles a lot of pastoral counselors feel that way.  They would definitely tell you that they are pastors and Bible workers.  I earned my doctorate in counseling from a seminary.  My graduation gown had black velvet to indicate PhD with red piping on it to indicate it was theological.

[Dr. Shane]

6 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Shane,  I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you told me you were ordained by them.  So, correct me.  Who ordained you as clergy?  I believe that you present yourself as having been ordained by some group.

 

I am ordained by the Nacional Association of Christian Ministers  (NACM).  They were recommended to me by Advent Health.  I am also seeking ordination from Renaissance Coalition (aka RENCO).  RENCO is recommended by the National Christian Counselors Association.  I am a currently a licensed minister by RENCO and doing a two-year internship. Upon completion of the internship, they will ordain me.  Both NACM and RENCO are good organizations.  They are distinctly different.  The ordination is hands on in both.  There is a ceremony and anointing process.  I may or may not remain with RENCO after they ordain me.  I haven't decided.  What attracted me most to them was the internship.  I wanted that experience.  I definitely plan to remain with NACM.

[Gregory Matthews]

Thank your for  the clarification of your ordination.

Shane, are you telling us that every State requires ordination to do pastoral counseling.  I remind you that a Federal Judge, in a case that involved me, ruled that such a requirement illegally discriminates against females and all who come from a denomination that does not ordain women.  Because of the ruling of that judge, Federal chaplains are not required to  be ordained.   They are required to be endorsed.

I once lived in a State that required all who did Pastoral Counseling to be registered, if they were not licensed, and in addition placed specific requirements on their practice.  If they did not comply they could be charged with a crime.

 

[Dr. Shane]

22 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Shane, are you telling us that every State requires ordination to do pastoral counseling. 

I do not know the laws of every state.  During my doctorate studies (I was studying clinical pastoral counseling) they stressed to us the importance of learning the laws of the state where one lives.  There are state agencies, like the Department of Health, that are good resources for that.  In Texas, it is the Texas Behavioral Health Executive Council (kind of a long name).  According to the Texas Occupational Code, pastoral counselors are exempt from licensing requirements of the state for mental health professionals.  Pastoral counselors are not allowed to call themselves "professional" counselors in Texas.  The word professional implies state licensure.  Things like that are what were stressed to us that we need to know.

The Attorney General of Texas clarified the exemption clause in the Occupations Code in 2002.  The exemption clause does not state one must be ordained.  It states one must be a recognized member of the clergy.  The issue in 2002 was online ordination which a person can receive by simply paying a fee.  The Attorney General agreed that online ordination was acceptable as one factor to determine if the person was a recognized member of the clergy.  However, there also needed to be other evidence indicating the person was acting in a ministerial role.  Ordination is obviously a big piece of evidence.  Another would be church employment.  Here in Texas, a person could be an ordained deacon (or deaconess) and be a pastoral counselor. 

In Texas, pastoral counselors should avoid using the word psychologist or stating they practice psychology.  Dr. James Dobson is a famous Christian psychologist so some pastoral counselors may be tempted to call themselves a psychologist.  Pastoral counselors can say they provide psycho-spiritual counseling.  I have that on my business cards.  Consequently, many people ask me what is psycho-spiritual.  It is the mixture of psychology and theology.  But, I could get fined if I stated I provide psychological counseling.  A lot of pastoral counselors just call themselves Christian counselors.  I use psycho-spiritual because a lot of my clients I meet in 12-step recovery groups.  Many of them are unchurched and many have an axe to grind with Christianity so labeling myself a Christian counselor would scare many of them away.

[Dr. Shane]

51 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I once lived in a State that required all who did Pastoral Counseling to be registered, if they were not licensed, and in addition placed specific requirements on their practice.  If they did not comply they could be charged with a crime.

I think currently Arkansas, Kentucky, Main, New Hampshire, North Carolina and Tennessee have a state pastoral license.  The intention there is to provide credentials so that the pastoral counselors can be paid by Medicaid and encourage more health insurance companies to do so.  But, unfortunately it puts the state in a position of authority over the church.  I am not aware of any legal challenges but it would be interesting to see where that would go.  The state has authority to regulate healthcare but when it comes to spiritual counseling that is different.  If public funds are not being used to pay for the services, I think the only issue should be transparency.  The consumer needs to be protected from fraud but that doesn't require the state to tell the church what the requirements should be for a pastoral counselor.