Froom and Arianism

[Hanseng]

Movement of Destiny was published in 1971. Froom didn't have access to computer searches and digitized early SDA resources. He did have a great love for his denomination and the ability to confront problems in an apparently honest manner.

MOD connects the Arian conflict in early Adventism to the 1888 General Conference. His theory is that Waggoner's presentations on the righteousness of Christ were partially  intended to dispel Arian sentiments. Arian or Semi-Arian [A/SA] beliefs were held by certain influential individuals (35). Many Sabbatarian Adventists were not A/SA {p. 154).

Froom credits J.M. Stephenson with introducing A/SA to the Sabbatarian Adventists through a book called The Atonement, in 1854 (153). Stephenson was heavily influenced by a one time Baptist minister named Henry Grew. (157).

Uriah Smith's Thoughts on Revelation was published in 1865. He remained a lifelong A/SA (158). His sentiments on the God head in his 1865 book on revelation were much more influential that Stephenson's work (159). The A/SA views were completely edited out of the Revision of his work in 1944 (160, f.n.).

J.H. Waggoner, father of Ellet Waggoner was a strong anti-trinitarian in in early ranks, as evinced by his work 1868 work, The Atonement(169). 

[Hanseng]

2 hours ago, Hanseng said:

J.H. Waggoner, father of Ellet Waggoner was a strong anti-trinitarian in in early ranks, as evinced by his work 1868 work, The Atonement(169). 

🤪 J.H. Waggoner, father of Ellet Waggoner, was an influential anti-trinitarian in the early days, as evinced by his 1868 work, The Atonement (169). 

[Hanseng]

D.M. Canright was a personal friend of the White's, according to volume 2 of the EGW biography. In 1873, Canright, his wife and a daughter that EGW described as "interesting," vacationed with the Whites in Colorado. They spent an afternoon in writing, reading and socializing (EGW bio, vol. 2, 386). According to the EGW biography, James White "admired" Canright.

Canright eventually wrote a very strong anti-trinitarian series of articles published in the R&H beginning on August 29, 1878. James White was editor at that time. Canright closed the article with these words "We must know the Father as the only true God. Then there is no true God besides the Father. But we must also know his Son Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. How simple and plain is this doctrine, and how abundantly sustained by the Holy Bible." DMC

Froom does not mention Canright's anti-trinitarism in Movement of Destiny.  Canright, at times, had close relationship with the Whites, as well as a prominent position as an evangelist and debater. James White, in the November 29, 1877, R&H p. 172, wrote a short article "Christ equal With God." This was about a year before Canright's decidedly anti-trinitarian piece. Uriah Smith was editor at that time. 

Here is what JW said, a year before publishing Canright's piece "Paul affirms of the Son of God that he was in the form of God, and that he was equal with God. "Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God." Phil. 2: 6. The reason why it is not robbery for the Son to be equal with the Father is the fact that he is equal. If the Son is not equal with the Father, then it is robbery for him to rank himself with the Father."

The inexplicable trinity that makes the godhead three in one and one in three, is bad enough; but that ultra Unitarianism that makes Christ inferior to the Father is worse. Did God say to an inferior, " Let us make man in our image?" JW

[Hanseng]

Froom describes James White as a "moderating influence" against those who were more aggressive in their advancement of anti-trinitarian views. (MOD 175). Froom says JW wrote little on the subject (Ibid.). Contra Froom, Gilbert Valentine wrote  "Many early Adventist pioneers such as James White, Joseph Bates, J. H. Waggoner, and R. F. Cottrell were, in fact, strongly anti-Trinitarian. They came from Disciples of Christ or similar church backgrounds and brought their strong anticreedal, anti-Trinitarian theology with them. This was how it came to be that semi-Arian concepts of Christology were fairly deeply imbedded in early Adventist beliefs and literature."

Froom. stated that Arianism and Semi-Arianism were introduced to the denomination through the influence of J.M. Stephenson by his book "The Atonement" in 1854 (MOD, 153).

James White wrote an Anti-Arian piece for the 12/29/1877 Review.

Valentine's article was published here Ministry Magazine, May 2005, Vol. 77, No. 5, pp. 14-19. It can be  seen here  Valentine: Trinity -- How clear views of Jesus developed in the Adventist Church (sdanet.org)

[Rahab]

Froom was a Jesuit priest. 

 

{Rahab, I hope you are making a joke and are not serious--Gregory Matthews.]

[Gregory Matthews]

I point our that L.E.. Froom was married and had biological children.

[Kevin H]

Those who have accused Froom of being a Jesuit tend to be those who feel that their version of Adventism is the ONLY REAL version of Adventism and want to force their version of Adventism on to the church. Mrs. White wrote many letters to the theologians who they tend to hold the most respect for, and she and/or Willie were critical that despite their massive quoting of her words, that they did not understand her message and was just using her words to force their views on to the rest of the church. Now they were not at a point to get into trouble with the church, they are a valid voice within Adventism. But they are to be listened to and then we weigh the weight of evidence and compare with others. 

Instead of sharing what they believe is important and allow the rest of us to listen and make up our minds; they tend to use righteousness by fear to push their views. They like to push their favorite Ellen White quotes, but avoid other quotes or actions that give a more balanced view. This group has always been around Adventism. As I mentioned there was quite a bit of correspondence between the pastors they like and the Whites which was not very flattering for them. They tended to be people who were very anti-Jones and Wagner in 1888, but later worked out some sort of compromise between the pre-1888 views that they liked and some of the post-1888 ideas. While I fortunately did not find any of this in their correspondence (although they frequently accused her of allowing others to pollute her mind against them and that if she really knew what what happening she would not have written testimonies to them but fully join  them. They insisted that they were using her correctly and would send her quotes to show that they were right and she was wrong to criticize them.) But there were flyers from the 1890s and early 1900s, that warned people against reading her post 1888 writings, that if they wanted to read her post 1888 writings to read them by way of some of these pastors who they liked and who the Whites were critical of, because they knew which of her post 1888 writings came from God and which came from others. Some suggested that a Jesuit had infiltrated her inner circle. Some suggested that the Jesuit may have been Willie, Daniels or Prescott. One or two I saw even suggested that Mrs. White herself was converted to Catholicism when in Australia and became a Jesuit and her assignment was to take advantage of having once been a true prophet of God to now destroy the church she once served faithfully. 

Of course after Mrs. White died, she suddenly became sainted by those who were giving these warnings about her. Same thing happened after Willie died, and a little less with Daniels and Prescott. Upon death they moved from apostates out to destroy the church and possible Jesuits, to sainted firm supporters of this version of Adventism and the dangers that they were complaining that the Whites and others were bringing in to destroy Adventism, they ended up saying that others were bringing in these ideas, a special target of the post EGW accusers has been to move their accusations to Elder Froom. It's all the same old same old.    

[Gregory Matthews]

In the overall scheme of things, the Bishop of Rome  has  much more to  concern himself than the SDA Church.

[Hanseng]

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I point our that L.E.. Froom was married and had biological children.

Could he have gotten a special dispensation from his handlers to marry and have children? I suppose it's possible that information regarding his parents being SDA might be fake. Dr. John E. Froom was allegedly Leroy Froom's father. He attended lectures by both Ellet Waggoner and A.T. Jones. He was an active member of the Batte Creek church in 1894. All this according to L.E. Froom in Movement of Destiny.

The late, great Jim Arrabito was the first one I heard saying Froom was a Jesuit. Jim was quite gracious at times, as well as a great artist. He had no reply when I asked him about Froom's lineage. His "Froom was a Jesuit" statement detracted little from his other outstanding qualities.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, I personally worked for Fenten Froom, the son of L. E. Froom.  Neither was a Jesuit.

I wonder, how many of those who suggest that some SDA was a Jesuit, have ever personally know a Jesuit Priest.

I have have personally worked with  a Jesuit Priest on a 5-day a week basis.  I got my Roman Catholic book of Canon Law from him.

[Rahab]

Look where he is buried. 

 

[I have no idea where L E Froom is burreid.  Can your provide a photo?--Gregory Matthews.]

[Hanseng]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I wonder, how many of those who suggest that some SDA was a Jesuit, have ever personally know a Jesuit Priest.

I've met and had conversations with a few Jesuit priests. Matteo Ricci is one of my heroes. From what I know about them, they are very pleasant people on a personal level. One gentleman looked like a California surfer, i.e. longish hair, beard, Birkenstocks. When I asked him what he had been doing in South America, he responded "Starting revolutions." Another was the head of the theology department at Loyola Marymount University, a very beautiful L.A. campus. He dismissed the Great Controversy as typical 19th century anti-Catholic rhetoric. I gave him a book by Bacchiocchi on the Sabbath, which he appreciated. Jesuits were/are very much involved in immigration issues in the States. During a period of immigration amnesty, I was told by a Jesuit that they had signed up 50,000 illegals for amnesty in Orange County.

They hosted an ecumenical conference at Loyola Marymount, charged the participants for our lunches, which I thought was quite clever.

[Gregory Matthews]

My personal position and that of this forum is that L.E. Froom can not be proven to be a Jesuit priest.

Such accusations against SDA leadership are long and many.  I consider all to be nonsense.

However, in the interests accurate knowledge and the freedom of people to  post in this forum, I an including the following URL in this post.  That one will link you to an article where L E Froom is thought to be a Jesuit. 

 

https://www.jetsoflight.org/leroy-froom-freemason-grave-jesuit-connection/

 

 

[Hanseng]

Clifford Goldstein was/is offering a reward for anyone that can reasonably demonstrate Jesuit presence among SDA. Jesuits are not Masons. The original charge was that Froom was a Jesuit. Now Masonic contamination is imputed to him.  Occult history reminds me of tinfoil covered  pyramid hats with spinners and crystals.🦄

Having read more than 20 chapters of Movement of Destiny, it's obvious that, at times, Froom drifts into apologetics that should most probably be absent from history; however, considering that he wrote prior to digitized research, he has done a good job in assembling relevant material from various sources.

Froom's most interesting contribution deals with Waggoner's presentations on the righteousness of Christ being intended, in part, to dispel Arian leanings among SDA.

As in AA "Keep coming Back"🙉

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rahab:  The article that I cited states that L.E. Froom was buried in a Masonic part of the cemetery.  Jesuits are not Masons.  Masons may be of any religion, to include SDA, Catholics and others.  Jesuits are s specific order of Roman Catholic priests.  The majority of RC priests are not Jesuits, but some are.

So, was L. E. Froom ever a Mason?   I do not know.  The fact that he was buried in a Masonic part of the cemetary is not proof that he was a Mason.  Perhaps, he once was?  Perhaps at the time of his death he was not an active Mason.  As a congregational pastor, I once had a member who was an inactive Mason.  NOTE:  The SDA Church does not require a member to not be a Mason.

If you assume that the fact that L. E. Froom was a Jesuit priest because he was buried in a Masonic part of a cemetary, you simply do not understand what a Jesuit is.

[Gregory Matthews]

For informational purposes:

*  Roman Catholic Priests are either diocesan or belong to a religious order.

*  in 2018 there were a total of about 37, 300 RC priests in the US.  Of those, about 27,700 were diocesan priests.

*  The nine (9) most common RC religious orders are listed in the following quote:

Well, here is a quick refresher for 9 of the most well known religious orders of the Catholic Church; Franciscans, Carthusians, Jesuits, Benedictines, Salesians, Missionaries of Charity, Dominicans, Augustinians and Carmelites.

NOTE:  While Masons will accept Catholic members, probably the majority of Masons are not Catholic.

 

[Hanseng]

Let's not forget the Brothers of the Christian Schools/Brothers De La Salle/Christian Brothers. Very well known in the Napa Valley area, they are not priests but initially a lay order dedicated to teaching  young people in France. Along the way, Brother Timothy started making communion wine, an enterprise that evolved into a wine business that was sold in the mid 80s for several hundred million dollars. I worked in health services for senior members of their order for about a year, part time. A wonderful group of old timers. Dedicating one's entire life to Christian service is no casual undertaking. We all watched in amazement as Steve young flopped into the end zone early in his 49ers career. Serving them was a great blessing!

[Rahab]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:05 PM, Rahab said:

Look where he is buried. 

 

[I have no idea where L E Froom is burreid.  Can your provide a photo?--Gregory Matthews.]

Found it on the web by a general search. 

[Hanseng]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:48 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

My personal position and that of this forum is that L.E. Froom can not be proven to be a Jesuit priest.

Froom had an enlightened view of the problems the denomination had with a Christ centered gospel from its early days:

 "This  failure to include the imperatives of salvation illustrates the unfailing early emphasis on
the "Commandments of God" without a corresponding emphasis on the "Faith of Jesus" (MOD 90).

"That was our early, understandable deficiency. We pressed on the required and essential "Commandments of God," and too often touched but lightly on the imperative, saving, enabling "Faith of Jesus." The Spirit of Prophecy was largely responsible for correcting that early imbalance. That we have been slow in recognizing" ( MOD119).

"Forty-four long years passed—from 1844 to 1888—before Righteousness by Faith really became a vital issue with us. The time lag involved is significant. Righteousness by Faith had always been held by some, and presumably in theory by most. But it had not come to the forefront, and to issue, as the basis of transforming redemption in Christ as "all the fulness of the Godhead," until Minneapolis" (MOD 142).

"Westphal stressed the point [@ the 1888 GC] that the concept was held by not a few that by fully obeying the moral law we could obtain salvation. But trying to do the same through the ceremonial law would bring one under the curse of the law by denying that Christ had died for us, and that forgiveness of sins comes only as a consequence of His death. If we still sacrificed animals we would thereby bear testimony to believing that Christ had not yet died for us, and thus be under the curse (MOD 244)."

"Those holding that salvation could be obtained by obedience were fearful that unless their position was maintained there would be loss of respect for the Ten Commandments—and thus strike at the heart of our central message on the Sabbath. It was a sincere concern. The Waggoner presentation consequently stirred hostility on the part of those who
believed in earned salvation—hostility based on the fear that their earned wage was to be denied them." (Westphal Letter, Aug. 28, 1930.) This caused deep feelings and variance (MOD 250)."

"Theoretically we had always held to the doctrine of justification by faith. But actually, Leon Smith felt, around the time of 1888 this vital truth was in danger of being eclipsed by a phase of salvation by works. 1888, he believed, marked the beginning of the rectification. (Leon A. Smith, Letter to L.E.F., May 6, 1930.) Leon Smith was assistant
secretary of the General Conference Press Bureau at that time (MOD 260)."

 

[Gustave]

Quote

Hanseng said: 

Movement of Destiny was published in 1971. Froom didn't have access to computer searches and digitized early SDA resources. He did have a great love for his denomination and the ability to confront problems in an apparently honest manner.

 

If Froom affirmed that the Father was a Being, the Son a separate Being and the Holy Spirit was a Being it is established that Froom WASN'T a Trinitarian. If Froom believed that Christ could have sinned and eternally ceased to exist he was at least a semi Arian. I don't know very much about Froom aside from what Walter Martin said about him - as I recall Walter Martin believed him to be an honest and honorable man. To be sure one can be a honorable and honest man and be an Arian or semi Arian - they are just wrong. 

 

[Gustave]

Quote

Rahab said: 

Froom was a Jesuit priest. 

What would be the nature of Froom's work be IF he was a Jesuit? Humor me a bit here. 

[Hanseng]

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

If Froom affirmed that the Father was a Being, the Son a separate Being and the Holy Spirit was a Being it is established that Froom WASN'T a Trinitarian.

Gustave, The article in the New Advent RC encyclopedia describes the trinity as the central doctrine of the Christian religion (s.v. trinity, dogma). I don't agree with that. The  death and resurrection of Christ for the redemption of mankind is the central doctrine. The book of Hebrews speaks extensively of Christ's nature, both human and divine. It explains, for example, that Christ became the Son of God by a decree. It describes him as the express image of God's person.

Different translations offer these possible translations:

exact imprint of his nature, ESV;

exact imprint of God’s very being, NRSV;

bears the impress of God's own being, New Jerusalem;

Jesus inherited a name better than angels;

He partook of the nature of fallen man;

He  is able to sympathize with our weaknesses; 

He has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

I'm comfortable in understanding and relating to God based on Scripture.

 

 

[For your information, Hansang refers to Hebrews, chapter 1--Gregory Matthews.]

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:  At an earlier time in SDA life there was an element in Adventism that believed that a large number of SDA leaders were Jesuit priests who had infiltrated the SDA Church.  My description of those is that they believed that there was a Jesuit under every SDA bed. 

I am reminded of one such who actually had a serious mental health diagnosis.  Shortly after she moved to a new small town, the local RC priest made a visit to Rome.  She immediately announced that he had had traveled to Rome to be advised by the Pope as to how he should respond to this new citizen.

Generally, those who believed that the Jesuits had infiltrated the SDA Chruch thought the they had the following functions:

*  They reported back to Rome on what was going on in the secret meetings.

*  They promoted false doctrines in attempts to get the SDA Church to accept those false doctrines.

In actual fact, it is true that in some nations, Communist leaders did infiltrate individual SDA Congregations.  In some cases, our knowledge of this resulted in our ability to use this to our advantage.  But, I do not feel free to make public some of what happened.

[Gustave]

Quote

Hanseng said:

Gustave, The article in the New Advent RC encyclopedia describes the trinity as the central doctrine of the Christian religion (s.v. trinity, dogma). I don't agree with that. 

That's accurate, the Trinity is the central Doctrine of the Christian Religion and excepting Oneness Pentacostal', Mormons and Adventist groups it's also understood to be the central Doctrine. 

Quote

Hanseng said:

The  death and resurrection of Christ for the redemption of mankind is the central doctrine. The book of Hebrews speaks extensively of Christ's nature, both human and divine. It explains, for example, that Christ became the Son of God by a decree. It describes him as the express image of God's person.

And seriously, at what point in time is it that you believe Christ became the Son of God by a decree? Scripture is very clear that Christ was the Son prior to Incarnation. Does your understanding have anything about Ellen's teaching on the council held in heaven where the Father "exalted" Christ by ordering that all in the heavenly realm should view Christ as equal to the Himself? 

God is Spirit - which means the 1 Being (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) was invisible. God the Son became man whereby He (The Son) became visible. Jesus said if you had seen Him you also had seen the Father - because as Scripture says the Father is in Christ and Christ in the Father. The early SDA's described it by saying things like the Flesh Father Being is up in Heaven in His Holy Temple and the Son was running around on earth - The Son couldn't be in heaven because He was on earth and the Father couldn't be on earth because He was in heaven and since heaven was a "place" and the Temple was in heaven only spiritualists or pantheists would spiritualize away the Personality (flesh body) of God. 

 

 

 

[Hanseng]

58 minutes ago, Gustave said:

It explains, for example, that Christ became the Son of God by a decree.

Ps. 2:7 ¶"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33  God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Hebrews 1:4 ¶  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 5:5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

"I will declare the decree...."

Christ became Son when he was resurrected.  He inherited the name Son. He became high priest based upon the position he inherited when he was resurrected.

SDA have made a big mistake trying to force the Bible to say what they think EGW said. Your mistake is trying to force Scripture to conform to papal dogma. Cart before the horse.