Froom and Arianism

[Rahab]

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

What would be the nature of Froom's work be IF he was a Jesuit? Humor me a bit here. 

I will share privately only. Pretty scary stuff. 

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Rahab said:

Pretty scary stuff. 

Can you explain how and when Froom became a Jesuit. It takes many years to become one. Was he a brother or priest? How could a young man from an SDA family with a documented history become a Jesuit? Apparently, it takes between 8 and 14 years to become a Jesuit brother or priest.

If you have convincing proof, Cliff Goldstein will/would pay you a "reward" for catching one.💀

[Rahab]

Testimony of a nun that escaped the RC system and fled to sda church. She saw him walk into the sda church and said, what’s he doing here?  Then she told everyone that he was a J priest in the RC church where she had escaped. She knew of him personally. 
 

The link is posted here on this thread where he is buried. 

[Gregory Matthews]

So, where can one access the testimony of your cited Catholic Num?  

i am reminded of a now dead person who once claimed on the Internet that he had discovered the living shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.  As proof of his discovery, he posted on the Internet a video of what he saw under the microscope.  So, I looked at his video.  He had discovered "Brownian Movement."  (Also called Brownian Motion.)  It should be noted that Brownian Motion does not come from anything that is alive.  Yet, it clearly is in motion.  Any histology student, in the first few weeks of study learns to identify such.

NOTE:  If you want to learn what BM is, look it up on the Internet.  It is described.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Rahab said:

She knew of him personally. 
 

That doesn't explain how a man whose family were documented members of the SDA denomination became a Jesuit. He would have had to spend, at the very least, 8 years in dedicated study. Froom's own history can likely be documented from his educational experience. All sources agree that he went to PUC and Walla Walla, even wrote hymns for the SDA hymnal.

He was born in 1890. Do you have a timeline showing just when and where he studied to become a Jesuit?

[Gustave]

Psalm 2, 7 prophetically applied to Christ is speaking of the Incarnation when Jesus was indeed born "in the flesh". You've no doubt heard the saying that 'wherever you go - there you are'. 

Well, Christ was the Son prior to the Incarnation according to the Scriptures. 

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1 John 4, 14: 

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

 

 

[Rahab]

22 hours ago, Hanseng said:

That doesn't explain how a man whose family were documented members of the SDA denomination became a Jesuit. He would have had to spend, at the very least, 8 years in dedicated study. Froom's own history can likely be documented from his educational experience. All sources agree that he went to PUC and Walla Walla, even wrote hymns for the SDA hymnal.

He was born in 1890. Do you have a timeline showing just when and where he studied to become a Jesuit?

I do not. 

[Hanseng]

1 minute ago, Rahab said:

I do not. 

Considering that both his parents were SDA and that Froom's attendance at PUC, Walla, and "seminary" are agreed upon, do you think that just how and when Froom became a Jesuit requires some explanation?

[Hanseng]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

Gustave, That text proves nothing regarding the when and where of the Sonship of Jesus. These epistles were written after Jesus rose from the dead and became high priest. Of course he was by then, the Son of God. The word "Son" alone could be a reference to the Son of man. The following verse refers to Jesus as the Son of God. There is no question about him being the Son of God. The question is when and how did he become the Son of God. There is no verse in John 1,2,3 which answers that question.

Romans 1:4 (NAS95) who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Acts 13:33  God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Hebrews 1:4 ¶  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 5:5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Jesus inherited the name Son; therefore, it is not something that he always possessed. Two other texts connect the Sonship of Christ with his resurrection. Another with his becoming high priest. Certainly not the end of the matter but something which should be addressed.

 

[Gustave]

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Hanseng said:

Gustave, That text proves nothing regarding the when and where of the Sonship of Jesus. These epistles were written after Jesus rose from the dead and became high priest. Of course he was by then, the Son of God. The word "Son" alone could be a reference to the Son of man. 

It proves that St John said The Father sent the Son which defaults into "The Son of God" as the son of man would be subsequent to the Incarnation OF THE SON OF GOD and "THE SENDING" [of the Son] predates the Son getting here (to earth). 

 

[Hanseng]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

t proves that St John said The Father sent the Son which defaults into "The Son of God" as the son of man would be subsequent to the Incarnation OF THE SON OF GOD and "THE SENDING" [of the Son] predates the Son getting here (to earth).

Makes no sense, what you have said.  I agree that the following verse clarifies it as the Son of God. A single verse proves nothing. I offered 5 verses which connect the resurrection/ high priesthood of Christ to His being begotten.   Hebrews says that Jesus inherited Sonship. People don't inherit something they already have. Hebrews  connects Christ's Sonship to his high priestly ministry. Romans says Christ was certified the Son of God through the resurrection. Psalm 2:7, quoted in the NT with reference to Christ 3 times says Christ became the Son by a decree.

As before, this is not the end of the matter but it's an important issue which should be properly addressed. A response derived from papal dogma, etc. is not a proper response. It's no different than cultic SDA who only know what Sr. White said. What you need to do is to address these 5 verses which indicate that Christ became a Son.

[Gustave]

 

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Hanseng said: 

Makes no sense, what you have said.  I agree that the following verse clarifies it as the Son of God. A single verse proves nothing.

 

If you agreed that Ps 2,7 is speaking about the Incarnation what I said evidently did make sense. Let's see if I can't make some more sense for you out of those other texts.. 

Acts 13,33 works out the same way - If Christ was God's Son prior to being "SENT" its not logical to conclude Christ became God's Son at the Resurrection. The text merely references the Psalm which clearly states that Christ was indeed the Son of God prior to the Incarnation

All these verses are referencing the same text - which confirms The Son of God was "the Son of God" prior to the Incarnation. 

I was unaware that SDA's held the view you are espousing. You made a reference that SDA's have made a big mistake in trying to force the Bible to say what they think EGW said. Do you mean by this that you hold a minority view within the SDA Church and that the majority of SDA's would agree with me in that Christ DIDN'T become the Son of God at the Resurrection.?

 

 

 

[Hanseng]

Gustave,

There is no passage which applies Psalm 2:7 to the Incarnation. If there is, please provide it. Three passages apply Psalm 2:7 to the Resurrection or high priestly ministry of Christ. These applications are by inspired interpreters of Scripture.

Romans 1:4 says he was determined/appointed/declared to be the Son of God through the resurrection

Psalm 2:7 says it was by decree

Hebrews 1: 4,5 says it was by inheritance

As for 1 John 4:14, the text you cited doesn't mention the Son of God, the following text does. Using a text that doesn't mention the topic, i.e., Son of God, makes no sense; nevertheless, we agree that Jesus was/is the Son of God. 

There is another dimension to this issue we have not discussed. Unless you can acknowledge the plain testimony of Scriptures here presented, probably not much sense in moving on.

 

 

[Gustave]

Romans 1 through 4 is even more clear that Christ was the Son of God prior to His being sent into the world. 

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord WHICH WAS MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH". 

The next verse is saying that the above was proven or "DECLARED" by the act of the Resurrection itself. As in everything Christ said about Himself, everything the Prophets said about the Christ was declared to be pinpointed at Jesus as He was The Christ. 

I'm somewhat stunned that you'd take this verse and others to mean that whatever it is that you think Incarnated into Mary's womb became the Son of God "at the Resurrection". I suppose I shouldn't be all that shocked by this given a mob of Anti-Trinitarian "prophecy experts" in the 19th century claimed to have solved the puzzle of when Jesus would return. 

This would be like claiming building and throwing paper airplanes around is all the experience and knowledge it takes to fly an F22 in combat. I mean COME-ON! 

[Hanseng]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:17 AM, Rahab said:

Froom was a Jesuit priest.

C.V. of Jesuit priest, Joseph Fitzmeyer:

"At the age of 18, he entered the Jesuit Novitiate in Wernersville, Pennsylvania, to begin the long course of studies leading to ordination as a Jesuit priest. This traditional preparation involved heavy emphasis on the Classical languages and literature, as well as philosophy and theology, and he received master’s degrees in all of these areas. He completed his formal theological studies at a Jesuit school of theology in Egenhoven, Belgium, where he was ordained a Jesuit priest (1951) and completed a Licentiate in Sacred Theology (S.T.L.)."

Apparently, Joseph Fitzmeyer spent ~13 years studying prior to ordination as a Jesuit priest. If Froom became a Jesuit brother instead of a priest, his training might have been briefer. Let's say Froom became a brother. He might have spent 8-10 years in training. When did Froom take the time to do his Jesuitical studies?

[Rahab]

Before he entered the sda church. 

[Hanseng]

8 hours ago, Rahab said:

Before he entered the sda church. 

He was born and raised in the SDA church. His father was one of the early SDA physicians connected to the Battle Creek church.

 

[Rahab]

Not from the testimony I have heard. 

[Gregory Matthews]

So, Rahab, give us the source of your information as to his entry into the SDA Church, so we can check it out.

Here is a website from which Rahab may have gotten her information that she aleges about Froom.

https://www.jetsoflight.org/leroy-froom-freemason-grave-jesuit-connection/#Leroy Froom’S Freemason Grave Site

 

NOTE:  I do not consider this to be creditable.    I knew his  son very well, as the son was once my boss.  Froom was a strong SDA.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Rahab said:

Not from the testimony I have heard. 

Probably false testimony or ill informed. I heard a lot of falsehoods in Adventism too. Perhaps you remember Jim Arrabito. He said L.E. Froom was a Jesuit. I went to the heritage room at PUC, found the obituary for Froom's family members in old SDA publications. Benjamin Wilkinson seemed to have started the rumors about Jesuit infiltration. One of his books includes a story about a Jesuit at Union College. The infiltrator supposedly just disappeared once he was discovered. Never identified, it should have been easy to unmask him. Not many religion professors at SDA colleges simply disappear. Wilkinson wrote at least 2 books, one on church history, one on the KJV. I read these books like gospel, believed the great SDA/Jesuit conspiracy. Then it occurred to me that SDA "scholars" pose more/ as much danger to the gospel as do the Jesuits.

In one book, Truth Triumphant, Wilkinson states that the Council of Trent was dominated by Jesuits (p 308). Oxford church historian Alister McGrath said that there were only 2 Jesuits at the Council of Trent. There were 29-34 Franciscans, 7-9 Dominicans and between 4 and 14 Augustinians (Iustitia Dei, 320). There were assorted others, all more than the number of Jesuits. How could 2 individuals have dominated so many other groups, in view of the fact that there was of conflict between those orders? If I remember correctly, it was the Dominicans who got the Jesuits expelled from China and contributed to their troubles with the pope.

Of course, some would respond that Oxford is controlled by Jesuits and McGrath is a puppet.

You are capable of more honorable pursuits, Rahab.

 

[Kevin H]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:26 AM, Hanseng said:

Can you explain how and when Froom became a Jesuit. It takes many years to become one. Was he a brother or priest? How could a young man from an SDA family with a documented history become a Jesuit? Apparently, it takes between 8 and 14 years to become a Jesuit brother or priest.

If you have convincing proof, Cliff Goldstein will/would pay you a "reward" for catching one.💀

According to documents I came across at Andrews from the early 1900s showing critical views of the post 1888 church, either/and Prescott, Daniels, Willie, and some suggested Ellen became Jesuits when Ellen, Prescott and Daniels were in Australia, if not before, and that the Jesuit influence is what caused Mrs. White to be so friendly to Jones and Wagner, and why all four became trinitarians. 

[Hanseng]

4 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

According to documents

What was the source of the documents, i.e., who prepared them?

[Kevin H]

They were just flyers that was prepared in the early 1900s by people who felt that the church was going in the wrong direction after 1888 and trying to push what they believed to be pre-1888 Adventism.  Even though generations have passed, we still find Adventists who are attracted to these views and are trying to force the church into returning to these views. I've noticed that those who accuse Froom of being a Jesuit tend to hold this same agenda.  

After Mrs. White, Willie, Prescott and Daniels died this group has forgotten how horrible the post-1888 Mrs. White, Willie, Prescott and Daniels were and now changed them into sainted supporters of the theology this subgroup want to push, and they moved their criticisms of the older Mrs. White, Willie, Prescott and Daniels placing these concerns on to Froom instead. 

[Hanseng]

On 8/7/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gustave said:

I'm somewhat stunned that you'd take this verse and others to mean that whatever it is that you think Incarnated into Mary's womb became the Son of God "at the Resurrection".

What I should have said is that the resurrection determined, with finality, that he was the Son of God. Numerous texts indicate that Jesus was known to be the Son of God, prior to his resurrection:

Joh 10:36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Mt 27:43  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Jesus became the Son of God by a decree, according to 

Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb 5:5  So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

These verses quote Psalm 2:7 which includes the words "I will declare the decree" indicating that Jesus became the Son by a decree.

 

[Gustave]

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Hanseng said: 

What I should have said is that the resurrection determined, with finality, that he was the Son of God. Numerous texts indicate that Jesus was known to be the Son of God, prior to his resurrection:

If Jesus wouldn't have Resurrected it would have proved He wasn't the Christ, same as if Jesus would have sinned, same as if Jesus sank & drowned when He walked on water or if He had been born of a Roman prostitute resultant from processing 6 horny Sadducees. The fact is that for Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God He had to fulfill ALL THE LAW AND ALL THE PROPHETS. 

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Luke 24,44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me

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Isaiah 9, 6:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”^[c] Of the increase of his government and of peacethere will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness  from this time forth and for evermore The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this

Not might do it, not try to do it but WILL DO IT. The Lord of Hosts, as in Almighty God would without any question [ except to Arians] do this.