The Pope, 666 & SDAs

[Gregory Matthews]

For an interesting perspective, see:

https://atoday.org/the-vatican-hasnt-the-slightest-interest-in-us/

 

[Rahab]

That goes against everything I have ever read and studied in our faith. Which includes bible, SOP, and famous evangelists of our faith. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rahab, the 1948 article in Ministry magazine was cited in the above article that I referenced.  If you want to read the entire article click on that link.  I  have not quoted the entire article.  The quote below, is simply one part of that larger article.

Quote

Years ago one of our prominent evangelists, when in Rome, secured some impressive pictures of one of the papal tiaras. But the photographs were without any wording of any sort on any one of the three crowns, front or back. Later, an artist, in attempting to reillustrate one of our standard books on the prophecies, took this genuine photograph of a plain tiara and lettered upon it the three words Vicarius, Filii, and Dei—one on each of the three crowns —on the premise that such was the name the pope bore, and if it were not actually on the tiara, it might well be by the way of illustration. One of our leading publishing houses, and the General Conference, to whom the altered photograph was submitted, emphatically rejected it as misleading and deceptive, and refused to allow its user (All honor to them!) Regrettably, some of our evangelists who do not have all the facts, and .to whom the appeal of the moment has sometimes outweighed the ethics of the case, and who perhaps have not thought through the fraudulent character of such plausible but specious evidence, have occasionally continued to use this or a similar fabrication.

Adventists have known for many years that there is no foundation for the claim that the words Vixarius, Fillii, Dei are inscribed on any papal crown.  The "666" claim is totally without foundation and as God is a God of truth, we as His followers are required to present God truthfully.  

Read the entire article if you wish.

Rahab, it just might be that some of what you have been taught is false.  This is a clear example.

 

 

[Hanseng]

Whether Vicarius Filii Dei is on the papal tiara or not, it does not change the fact that the papacy has served as an anti-Christian power for millennia. It is full of false doctrine, contained/contains numerous evil clergy, and is responsible for the death of large numbers of people through the centuries. it's possible that Adventism would become equally corrupt, if it had been around for centuries as well.

Fortunately, salvation is found in the justifying righteousness of Christ, not what we believe about the papacy.

Adventism is in the midst of a deconstruction, which includes discarding many of the tenets with which we were raised. In some ways, that is a good thing, if all we are left with is Jesus.

[Gregory Matthews]

* Any informed person will acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church has had corrupt Priests, Bishops and Popes.  But the same is true for the SDA denomination.  It has  had  its corrupt pastors and administrators.  I remind your of a recent 50 million dollar judgment against the SDA Church and that there is likely to be a second 50 million dollar judgement over this same incident, that will be against the SDA Church in the future.  I also remind you of the current 350 million dollar litigation that is going on.  The reality is that the RC Church as a denomination with a much larger membership than the SDA Church has had greater publicity and a greater number of corrupt clergy than the smaller SDA denomination. 

*  Mention may be made of persecution by Roman Catholic monarchs of Protestants.  But, Protestant monarchs also persecuted the Roman Catholics.  Protestants are not free and clear of this.

*  SDAs and Roman Catholics have major doctrinal differences.  As to who is thought to have the false doctrine depends on which side your are on.  However, regardless of our major differences with the Catholics, SDA doctrine is in accord with Catholic doctrine in more ways than most SDAs understand.  There is more basic agreement that many are aware of.  Yes, major differences remain.

 

 

[Hanseng]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

* Any informed person will acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church has had corrupt Priests, Bishops and Popes.  But the same is true for the SDA denomination.  

*  Mention may be made of persecution by Roman Catholic monarchs of Protestants.  But, Protestant monarchs also persecuted the Roman Catholics.  Protestants are not free and clear of this.

 

Chaplain Matthews, You are in a better position than I to know the extent of homosexual pedophilia in Adventism and the larger protestant clergy. It's tragic to learn that SDA pastors have the same rates of child abuse as do RC clergy. I'm sorry to hear that. My current views are largely formed by "fathers" Tom Doyle and Richard Sipe, both one time priests who spent decades researching and advocating for victims of clerical sex abuse .

Welcome - A.W. Richard Sipe (awrsipe.com) 

Somewhat ironic that you would refer to what I assume are the Elizabethan persecutions in England. That's exactly what a RC priest said to me when I asked him about RC persecution of Protestants. D'Aubigne said that in the Netherlands alone ~50,000 Protestants were put to death during the reign of Charles V. Do you believe that 50,000 priests/lay members were killed in England and other places by Protestants? If so, I'd be interested in your sources. Do you consider D'Aubigne a reliable source?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hsanseng.  I appreciate your response.  I did not say that the Roman Catholic and SDA rates of clergy abuse were exactly that same on a per-clergy basis.  I do not know of any studies that would show  such to be accurate.

Further, my focus is on abuse and I do not limit it to abuse of children.  Yes, I am personally aware of the SDA abuse of both children and adults.  I do not know what that ratio is in either the SDA Church or in the Roman Catholic Church.  That ratio may be different.  I do not know. 

Abuse happens.  It may be physical, sexual, emotional or religious.   All of these types happen in the SDA Chruch.  Abuse may involve more than one type.  I have knowledge of all happening in the SDA Chruch.  I do not know if all types happen in the Roman Catholic Chruch.  The publicity about it is generally limited to sexual abuse.  Whether other types happen is not part of my knowledge.

So, perhaps there are differences between SDA abuse and Roman Catholic abuse.  I simply do not believe that we should  think teat such possible differences make us SDAs better than Roman Catholics

I do not think it necessary to give your a lot of details.  But I will mention a couple of aspects of my personal knowledge.

*  I am personally related to a person who experienced abuse in the name of the SDA Church.

*  I once worked for a Local Conference President who was expelled from SDA ministry for such activities.

*  I was once a member of a SDA Congregation where the pastor was  expelled from SDA ministry for such.

*  In my graduate work in psychology at Chapman University,  I became involved with people involved in SDA abuse.

*  I have provided pastoral care to people presently listed on the Internet that involved pastoral abuse.

*  Yes, I have also been involved in non-SDA cases of abuse.

NOTE:  The above is only a partial listing of my involvement is such issues.  I am not concerned as to either numbers or whether or not abuse is more likely the happen in the RC Chruch, which is a much larger denomination.  I am simply concerned that we SDAs can not claim to be free of such.    Further, in my thinking abuse is abuse.  I do not think it praiseworthy for us to allege that we SDAs abuse less children than Catholics and then abuse more adults that Catholics.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hanseng, confidentiality is very important in pastoral relationships and in dealing with people affected by religious abuse.  But, I will give you two examples of such in the SDA Chruch.  In both of these, the confidentiality of the involved people is  respected and people reading this will not be able to identify the involved person.

*  A male SDA leader fathered the child of a woman to whom he was giving Bible Studies.

*  A young female as a  child watched her Father bring his girl friends into the home to spend the night.  She was very much a victim and extremely wounded by her experiences. 

NOTE:  Neither of these are well-known in Adventism.  So, do not think that any person reading this can  identify the involved people.  Yes, I have been personally involved in both of these.

[Hanseng]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

*  A young female as a  child watched her Father bring his girl friends into the home to spend the night.  She was very much a victim and extremely wounded by her experiences.

A friend of mine as a young girl returned home unexpectedly with her mother. Her father was in the house with a female companion. After a greeting, my young friend followed her mother into their sleeping room. She asked about the lady with her father. Her mother replied, "That's just a friend of your Daddy, let's unpack our clothes." That was the end of it. She wasn't traumatized for life. Her parents are/were still married decades later. She had/has a good relationship with both.

A lot of the "trauma" of sexual abuse is the product of American culture, thanks to the mental health industry. Some people simply walk it off, no big deal. The needy, whiny, victim types go into therapy for years and live a dysfunctional life. It doesn't have to be that way.  The Holy Spirit is a powerful healer for those who connect with Christ.

[Gregory Matthews]

I certainly did not give the whole story.  There is much more.  

Your citation seemingly was a one-time experience.  In my story it was an on-going, regular experience that extended over the years and included more than I stated.