Gender & Sexuality

[Gregory Matthews]

Gender Issues:  The Adventist Review recently published an article on issues of gender and sexuality.  They also posted my response to that article.  You may read both at:

https://adventistreview.org/commentary/expert-discusses-the-adventist-church-position-regarding-gender-issues/#comment-6251280527

 

[Hanseng]

The "everybody is welcome" approach to Christianity is not Biblical. It certainly wasn't true in the OT. It's not true in the NT. Disfellowshipping refers to the practice of shunning socially. That's what it means. Certain people were not to be associated with; one was to be delivered unto Satan. There is hardly stronger language in Scripture to describe how believers should relate to knowing and willful transgressors. Some groups do practice "shunning. People put under the "ban" are to be avoided. RCs practice this in certain places  against those who have become SDA. So do Anabaptist groups against those judged deserving.

Welcoming transgenders and others who deviate from heterosexual practice is nothing more than bottom fishing. SDA clergy are unable to bring "normal" people into the denomination; consequently, they go for those who are desperate for validation and acceptance.  One pastor told me the best way to grow a church is through membership transfer. Plainly an admission that he couldn't win souls. Perhaps now, throwing open the doors to the gender dysphoric, trans community, homosexuals, and eventually pedophiles is the next great soulwinning strategy.

It will be interesting to see if the African brethren are going to accept transgendered homosexuals in their congregations, simply because an "expert" from the General Conference tells them it's all right. 

[Gregory Matthews]

The SDA position, whether it is correct or wrong, is that all persons who come in peace are welcome to worship, but not all are welcomed as members.   The position that you seem to advocate would not welcome in worship many who would not meet the membership standard.

[Gregory Matthews]

On a personal basis, I like the following:

NOTE:  Jim Brauer is a now retired SDA pastor, who is still active in the Desert Valey SDA Church.

 

We extend a special welcome to those who are single, married,

widowed, divorced, gay, filthy rich, dirt poor, yo no habla Ingles.

We extend a special welcome to those who are crying new-borns,

skinny as a rail or could afford to lose a few pounds.

We welcome you if you can sing like Andrea Bocelli or like a person

who can’t carry a note in a bucket. You’re welcome here if you’re

“just browsing,” just woke up or just got out of jail. We don’t care

if you’re more Catholic than the Pope, or haven’t been in church

since little Joey’s Baptism.

We extend a special welcome to those who are over 60 but not

grown up yet, and to teenagers who are growing up too fast. We welcome

soccer moms, NASCAR dads, starving artists, tree-huggers, latte-sippers,

vegetarians, junk-food eaters. We welcome those who are in recovery

or still addicted. We welcome you if you’re having problems or you’re

down in the dumps or if you don’t like “organized religion;” we’ve been

there too.

If you blew all your offering money at the dog track, you’re welcome here.

We offer a special welcome to those who think the earth is flat, work

too hard, don’t work, can’t spell, or because grandma is in town and

wanted to go to church.

We welcome those who are inked, pierced or both. We offer a special

welcome to those who could use a prayer right now, had religion

shoved down your throat as a kid or got lost in traffic and wound up

here by mistake. We welcome tourists, seekers and doubters,

bleeding hearts... and you!

 

Jim Brauer, Desert Valley SDA Church, AZ  

[Hanseng]

16 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The position that you seem to advocate would not welcome in worship many who would not meet the membership standard.

Do you want gays and transgenders sitting in church holding hands, playing footises, and hitting on other members of the church? One of my assignments doing prison chapel work was to monitor those in the back pews and call them out for sexual activity. The violent reactions against Riley Gaines, for example, are not surprising. Trannies were well known to be assaultive in the prison context. Tasers were the default method of control when they got too obnoxious.

Homosexuals interested in repentance are a different tribe from the activist, recalcitrant types who want to pollute the world with their filth. The latter should not be welcomed in church. Some people are not suitable for church fellowship, which, includes those who have or are repenting of their sin.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, we have Straight people doing all that you mention.  

In my professional life, I have had straight women and prostitutes hitting on me, as well as gay persons hitting on me.  Why would I treat one group differently from the other?

Yes, I have been a member of a SDA congregation that welcomed homosexual couples who came to worship in peace.  Perhaps they did hold hands.  I do not know as I did not have them as the focus of my thoughts and attention.  However, I can tell you that they never hit on anyone else.  Why?  Because there are many gay people who exist as a couple who remains faithful to each other and are not looking for other sexual partners.  That is exactly the same as with heterosexual partners.

You seem to equate homosexuality with multiple sexual partners.  That view demonstrates your ignorance.  Some homosexual partners are faithful to each other.  Some are not.  Just as it is with heterosexuals.

NOTE:  In my professional life in health care, I once worked for a year in a special project providing care to HIV positive people.   Some were male.  Some were female and some were children.  Home were homosexual.   Some were not.  Some were SDA.  Some were not religious.  Some were celibate homosexuals.  Some were not.  For that year, I fellowshipped with them.  I joined them in eating meals.  [NOTE:  you do not become an HIV infected homosexual by sitting next to one and eating with them.]  I got to know them as persons loved by God.

 

 

 

[Hanseng]

14 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

You seem to equate homosexuality with multiple sexual partners. 

I have had a very different experience with the gay community. In general, homosexual monogamy is a myth, a lie perpetrated by the gay community to gain acceptance in society. Perhaps you have not read Dr. Iskander's article on the myth of homosexual monogamy. It is posted on Fulcrum 7. It has been recommended by others. My views are based on my experience in the West Hollywood area over the space of several years.

Year ago, I was part of a small group headed up by a couple. I asked him one evening how he and his wife met. "Oh, we met at Adventist singles." Sometime later, I asked another friend, who was a member of their community, about them. They knew each other in our home country. They were both married to other people, fell in love, divorced, and got married." They were pariahs in their own culture, objects of scorn. Some people don't take to open adultery; consequently, they joined up with another group of people who did not know their history. They became small group leaders. Adulterers and liars are not fit to be spiritual leaders. They should be shunned. Homosexuals are no different. If you think the average gay is just like you except in the bedroom, you have simply been deceived. Pedophiles are not much different. Very slick in endearing themselves to others. That's how they get access to the children

I worked in the antique business for a few years. Lot of homosexuals in that field. People assumed I was one. I was  propositioned by homosexuals, going back decades, on SDA college campuses and the streets, offered  money, international first-class travel and the like to try it on with the gay community. Thank God, I declined those opportunities, even all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for bowing the knee to baal.

You ever watch "Curb Your Enthusiasm?" Larry David has a really funny and ironic perspective on life. It would be great if he were not a blasphemer who curses Christ in his routines. Gays are no different. Lot of lovely guys and gals in that community, except that they, too, curse Jesus in their intimate moments.

[Gregory Matthews]

And there are many heterosexual people who are not faithful to one person.

Yes, there were several hundred HIV infected people involved in the special project that I was involved with for a year.

Yes, some of the homosexual people were celibate, and probably most were not.   Just as single heterosexual people bay be celibate, or they may not be celibate.

God loves all of them.

I am not worried that a homosexual couple sitting in my congregation on Sabbath morning is going to infect my congregation.  COVID is catching.  A person with COVID may infect members of my congregation.  Homosexuality is not catching.

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Homosexuality is not catching.

Yes, it is, to those so inclined.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gender preference is not a choice.  I did not choose to be heterosexual.   I will always be a heterosexual.   I do not have the power to be a homosexual. 

It does not matter how much I may be exposed to homosexuals; I will always be a heterosexual.    Homosexuality is not catching in the sense that COVID is catching.

Homosexuality/heterosexuality is not determined by practice.  It is not determined by who I do or do not have sex with.   From this perspective a person can be a celibate homosexual.  I have worked with those who are such.   i can assure you that those people with whom i worked, who were celibate, were firm in their belief that they were homosexual.  That did not change when they decided to become celibate.

 

[Hanseng]

That's your belief. Doesn't change the fact that homosexuality is a sin. Young people can be and are lured into homosexual practices. Men who lie with men as with a woman were put to death. Men with deformed, e.g., gender reassingned, genitals, were not allowed into the congregation of the Lord. A man who had his father's wife was consigned to Satan by Paul. Homosexuality is worse. Romans 1, in the strongest language possible condemns homosexuality, however the apologists might want to twist the texts. The baal worshippers Elijah slaughtered were likely involved in homosexual  practices. 

Requiring a life of celibacy for homosexuals is a cruel and sadistic solution. The recalcitrant are much better left to live their lives outside the church. Doesn't mean they can't have a relationship with God. The church is obligated to shun the society of recalcitrant fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, coprophiliacs, and others.  I prefer to not associate with men, in church, who view me as a potential sexual partner. Homosexuals are just as dangerous to young men as pedophiles are to children.

The Myth of Male Homosexual Monogamy — Fulcrum7

[Gregory Matthews]

One may posit that homosexual practice is a Biblical sin.  I have never challenged this position.

But, homosexuality in itself is neither a choice, nor is it a sin.  I did not choose to be a heterosexual.   I did choose to limit my sexual relationships to a heterosexual practice.

It may be that you define the word differently than I do .

The 1988 book by Ronald M. Springett, Homosexuality In History and Scripture, is a classic in my opinion that is still published by The Biblical Research Institute.  In its first chapter it points out that the word "homosexuality" is defined in two different ways.  Some define it by actual sexual practice.  I reject that definition.  My definition applies to a person who experiences a continued erotic attraction to persons of the same sex.  This is what I have found to be the definition of people who claim to be homosexual.  

This book is sold by Amazon for $15 and by the SDA BRI for $10.

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 8/12/2023 at 8:32 PM, Hanseng said:

The Myth of Male Homosexual Monogamy — Fulcrum7

This was an interesting link. However, there are some caveats to keep in mind.

The author of the article is Dr Elizabeth Iskander. I have read a number of articles by her and have come away with one opinion of her writings. She is obsessed with male sexuality and how to control it. While the info in the linked article may be accurate, I do not really trust her need to write the article except for the aforementioned obsession with male sexuality.

Several years ago Iskander wrote an article entitled "Paul, Circumcision and the Modern Church" over at Fulcrum7. It is still there if you wish to research it. In this article she took this hardline approach that would make the pharisaical Jews of Paul's day jealous. She advocated the circumcision of any man who wanted to be a member of the SDA church. In comments, which Fulcrum7 has deleted, she went so far as to say that no man should even be allowed to teach sabbath school unless he had been circumcised. Considering the majority of the SDA church is not circumcised, as the majority of the men in the world are not, this is a pretty extreme view. She was not done yet when she wrote of all the diseases that not being circumcised would bring.

Considering the above paragraph, consider a nominating committee in session to pick church leaders. A man comes up for review. Will a genital exam be necessary to approve him for a position.

She continued to write in her article even untruths. Some would call them lies. She noted that General Patton reported 150,000 men had to be hospitalized for foreskin problems. She apparently is unaware that General Patton also had an obsession and simply order any uncircumcised man into the military hospitals and be circumcised. This was the major beginning of the mass genital mutilation of men. 

She goes on a spiel about smegma. I am not sure how, as being a female, that she would not know that females can have even more smegma that a male. In Egypt, nearly ninety per cent of females are circumcised and they use the same rationales that people in this country use to cut boys. Its cleaner they say, its prevents disease they say. I would say, Iskander withstanding, between males and females who are not circumcised and with the same attention to hygiene, at the end of the day, no male is any dirtier than any female. But Iskander would have you believe otherwise.

This is not all of Iskander's hijinks. She got into fights with a church in Southern California over the LGBTQ issue. That church had to get a restraining order against her. She was not even allowed into the church to see her daughter in a concert.

She used to write over at Advindicate. Her behaviors led to all of her material being deleted from the Advindicate website. I tend to believe that if there is one weak spot in Fulcrum7, it is allowing Iskander's articles on their website. And FWIW, challenging Fulcrum7 over Iskander's writings got me banned from their site!

[Hanseng]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

And FWIW

I agree that there are some definite issues with Dr. Iskander. I posted the link to that article, not at all to endorse her. Homosexual virtue is most likely a myth in most cases; consequently, I offered the article as a challenge to homosexual sanctification, not an endorsement of her.

[Hanseng]

On 8/13/2023 at 6:34 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

 i can assure you that those people with whom i worked, who were celibate, were firm in their belief that they were homosexual.  That did not change when they decided to become celibate.

Their sexual orientation probably would not change when they decided to become celibate. It wouldn't change if they decided to become vegetarian, enter a monastery, or marry a woman. It could change if they decided to accept Christ as their Saviour and were baptized with the Holy Spirit. There is not more evidence of this kind of change because people who experience it are mortified by their previous homosexual debauchery. They are thoroughly ashamed of their past life; consequently, they do not talk about it. People who enter xgay ministry, in general, are making a big mistake. They should be smiting their chests and asking God for mercy, not parading themselves around like a queen, telling others how to be Christians. SDA, for some reason have a penchant for from "trash to treasure" testimonies. They like to hear about the degradation and defilement others have passed through. Not only x gays. Former drug abusers, criminals, adulteresses and adulterers, all like to get their time in the SDA limelight. People are entertained by pastor's wives telling about their affairs with academy teachers, criminals telling their stories of illegal behavior, disrespectful children going on about the shame they brought to their parents, alcoholics rolling around in their vomit, all this before they got "saved."

Tales like this appeal to a  certain class of people who make up a good part of those who join the denomination. An acquaintance of mine, a physician, told me about his Christian pastor who was a physician in Viet Nam, fled the country, was a refugee, and then repeated medical school in America to continue practicing medicine. Both he and his wife, also a well educated professional, appreciated that kind of testimony. They would be appalled by the stories that some SDA "converts" trade in. They don't want to hear about a guy who sold his rear end on street corners.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Seventh-day Adventist Chruch faces homosexual issues that are real.  SDA members, including denominational clergy and leaders have homosexual family members.  The answers to the issues that this church faces are not easy and at the present are not always clear.  I do not have answers to all of these issues.  Hanseng, as I read your posts, I do not believe that you have answers to some of those issues.

In your post above, I sense your sarcasm.  I sense more than that.  The post above goes well beyond what I consider to be the civil discussion that we ask of people who post here.  Perhaps, I should edit it.  But, that would involve more extensive editing than I chose to do.  I could remove the entire post.   But, I chose not to do that.  In any case, your printed descriptions of humans who happen to be loved by God, are well beyond the civil level that we ask people who post here to adhere to.

So, I am going ot lock this thread.  Discussion in this thread has ended.

I have not removed your ability to post in this forum. However, do not continue posting on homosexuality n the manner that you posted in the post just above this, if you want to be able to continue to post in this forum.  Do not push it.

Contrary to what you may believe: Gender preference is not a choice   There is no evidence that as a general rule, people can change their gender preference.  It is what it is and it remains throughout one's life.  If there is a rare exception, that is subject to challenge and even if true, which it probably is not true, is not symptomatic of the general population as a whole.