Saddam To Swing

[Woody]

Well put Shane. It is so true what you have said. The Demos have put out the word that BUSH LIED.And the American public has bought it. Bush goes on and quietly does his job as President and does not defend himself. Meanwhile the public believes that he "lied".

[bevin]

He did lie.

He said "We know where the WMD are" and he was simply lying. He knew that they did not know for sure where they were.

The UN Weapons Inspectors told him there was no evidence. He insulted and denigrated them - and they were right.

He didn't even 'cherry pick' the evidence. He was TOLD what the best evidence was, privately expressed his own doubts about it, and then lied to the world about how certain they were.

And then there is whole Iraq=Al Qeida link, which he and his administration invented out of nothing.

/Bevin

[Nan]

And those who thought that Iraq would end up like another Vietnam were ridiculed.

[Woody]

Would some of you prefer that we just allow Saddam to invade his neighbor?

Once he did this we attacked Iraq to rescue Kuwait. That was the reason for the war we now fight. IF you don't agree with it that is fine but that is the reason we are there now.

Saddam signed a cease fire to end the fighting. He agreed to UN inspections as terms of the cease fire. For years he violated the terms of cease fire. He also violated the UN resolutions. So ... the original war had to continue because he violated the cease fire agreement.

Are some of you saying that once someone violates a cease fire agreement that there is still a cease fire? Under the terms he signed ... the war automatically resumes. And ... the war goes all the way to Baghdad to look for the WMD that Saddam didn't allow for inspections.

Were there WMD or was there not? That is not the question. The point is that Saddam was required by the ceasefire to open up for the inspectors and he didn't, He was required to obey the 17 UN resolutions and he didn't.

He was his OWN un doing. He can blame no one else.

[Clio]

I used to agree with capital punishment.

However, once we execute someone, then for all eternity there is no hope for them. Once they're gone their decisions and choices whether for or against Abba are final.

Were Saddam not to be executed there is always a chance, slim though it be, that at some time in the future he could turn his heart to Abba and be forgiven and redeemed for all eternity.

That is not to say he should not escape the consequences for what he has done and chosen to this point in his life. It's just I would not want to be responsible for removing any opportunity for repentance, forgiveness and salvation from him forever.

That is a weighty burden to bear without knowing Saddam's heart as only Abba can possibly know.

Clio

[Woody]

Thank you Clio for your comments. Here is something else to consider ...

If you don't execute a killer ... he will likely kill again and then you have more and more people who will never have another opportunity to come to know Christ.

Saddam is a serial killer. You can bet if he were to escape that thousands of people will not have the opportunity to know Christ. If you put him in Prison for the rest of his life ... HE WILL ESCAPE with the help of others.

Saddam is responsible for the killing of thousands and thousands of his own people not to mention the killings of Iranians and the rape of thousands of his people.

I think the lessor of evils would be to kill him through the use of the Justice System there in Iraq as soon as possible.

[John317]

I used to agree with capital punishment.

However, once we execute someone, then for all eternity there is no hope for them. Once they're gone their decisions and choices whether for or against Abba are final.

Were Saddam not to be executed there is always a chance, slim though it be, that at some time in the future he could turn his heart to Abba and be forgiven and redeemed for all eternity.

That is not to say he should not escape the consequences for what he has done and chosen to this point in his life. It's just I would not want to be responsible for removing any opportunity for repentance, forgiveness and salvation from him forever.

That is a weighty burden to bear without knowing Saddam's heart as only Abba can possibly know.

Clio

_________________________-------------------------------------------------

I used to be opposed to capital punishment.

I can see your points, Clio, but when it comes to Saddam, he has had his chance to repent. In jail he's had access to Christian guards who've talked to him and also he's had lots of time to think and read both the Koran and the Bible if he wants to. He's had many more chances than he's given most of the people that he's killed.

If Saddam doesn't deserve to be executed, then who does? Would you say he doesn't deserve to be executed? If he doesn't, then the million+ lives he wiped off face of the earth don't have much value. If we say people who kill over a million humans receives sufficient punishment by living comfortably in a room and watching TV, reading books, eating good food, receiving dental and medical care, taking care of a garden, experiencing love, talking to fellow humans, writing books-- then it seems to me we are saying that taking a million lives isn't all that terrible after all. Executing him, on the other hand, shows that people who murder others as he did forfeit their own right to breath the air. Murderers, who take human life without so much as the flutter of an eyelash, need to realize the serious consequences of their decisions to end someone's life.

By the way, if you want to read some great examples of appeals to stop the death penalty, read Leo Tolstoy and Victor Hugo. Saddam should have read them when he was a kid. Maybe then he wouldn't be so close to the end of his tether.

[Dr. Shane]

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? ... For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." Ezek. 18:23, 32

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" ibid 33:11

Although justice is served, it still gives me a sick feeling in my stomach.

[Amelia]

Former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein is dead -- executed by hanging for killings committed during a brutal crackdown nearly 25 years ago –- Iraqi TV stations report.

[Bravus]

Two points:

1. Saddam killed over a million people, or was responsible for their deaths? I don't think so - I'd love to see some evidence.

2. A brutal crackdown 25 years ago when Iraq was a US client state and Saddam had the full backing of the US, let's not forget.

It's all over now, anyway. He was a bad man, and he's gone... but it wasn't justice.

[Key Guy]

Quote:

Although justice is served, it still gives me a sick feeling in my stomach.

It's supposed to. Capital punishment should never be easy or fun. The taking of another life (human or animal) should not be a pleasant experience. No one said justice is always enjoyable. But justice is required of us and sometimes you just have to take out the trash. Sometimes society has to use its collective dumpster (capital punishment) to rid itself of vermin.

I know the following is not exactly on this subject but it makes my point...

Quote:

Deut. 21:18-23 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

I don't think we should be knocking off the rebellious youths of today (we'd lose a ton!), but God was showing that just having vermin exist are damaging to communities.

Notice that the authority over a lfe was given to the town elders. It wasn't like we have now... judges, lawyers, police all from out of town. The people given the authority to govern were citizens of that specific community, who would understand the gravity of the ultimate life or death decision and how that would affect the families.

We did the right thing by having the Iraqis judge and sentence Saddam.

[Dr. Shane]

And Saddam got what he denied to his victems, a trial. He got a lawyer and a trial by jury with all the eyes of the world on it. The over-one-million number comes from counting the number of Iraqis killed in the war with Iran plus the number of his domestic enemies that he killed.

Of course those that want to blame Bush for the Americans killed in Iraq certainly have to blame Saddam for the Iraqis killed in his war with Iran. The difference, of course, is that Bush made the decision to go to war with Iraq with the support of the US Congress, which is not a puppet Congress but elected by the people in a transparent process. Saddam, on the other hand, was a dictator who picked his own battles.

We should all pray for the best there. Let's not forget, the reason we are there is because Saddam made the world believe he posed a bigger threat than he actually did. He bears the largest portion of the blame for the war that has created so much termoil there. It would really be a blessing if democracy prospers and Iraq remains free.

[Robert]

If Bush lied he must be one of the best liars ever to convince the US Congress and 36 other nations all to go to war.

More likely, Saddam was bluffing and Bush with the world behind him, called his bluff. Now Saddam pays with his life and Bush will soon retire and live his days out in peace.

The story is out...they wanted war. 911 had absolutely nothing to do with Saddam and everything to do with revenge. After all Saddam had a home address and the real culprit didn't.

So Bush has blood on his hands and in the eyes of God's law he also deserves the death penalty! Who are you kidding?

Rob

[Robert]

So Bush has blood on his hands and in the eyes of God's law he also deserves the death penalty! Who are you kidding?

"The number of service members who have died since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003 is 2,979."

Who is responsible?

Bush!

[Robert]

It is clear from the Bible that God makes a distinction between sins, that all sins are not equally offensive before God. To make no distinction and to say all sins are alike makes God out to be less reasonable than humans.

[Dr. Shane]

It was believed that Saddam posed a threat to the US. That is the reason every Congressman and Senator that voted to go to war give as the reason for their vote.

If one understands how the American political system works they will see the folly in trying to blame the President. The American system is a system of checks and balances which prevents any one branch of government from holding too much power. The Senators and Congressmen on their respective Intelligence Committees received the same intelligence briefings as the President did. If they didn't, if they were dependant on the President for his interuptation of the intelligence, then there would have been no way for Congress to hold the President in check and balance the power. All the information available to the President was also available to Congress. That is how the system works. The decision to go to war was not made by the President alone.

Now let's remember that President Clinton also made a case for going to war with Iraq. Congress, under Clinton, voted for regime change in Iraq. The impact that 9/11 made was that it gave the American people the resolve to go into Iraq and do what Clinton and Congress had already decided needed to be done. The reason Clinton, Bush and the US Congress felt Saddam had to be removed was because Saddam presented himself as a threat to the US. The blame really lies with Saddam.

[Robert]

This war in Iraq is not over.

[Robert]

It was believed that Saddam posed a threat to the US. That is the reason every Congressman and Senator that voted to go to war give as the reason for their vote.

His administration sold the lie. They did a good job. I, for one, was never for the war.

Robert

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

His administration sold the lie.

Yes, indeed! Saddam's administration sold a lie.

[Robert]

Would some of you prefer that we just allow Saddam to invade his neighbor?

[Robert]

Quote:

His administration sold the lie.

Yes, indeed! Saddam's administration sold a lie.

True...he too wanted to look good, but the war was because Bush linked 911 with Saddam and then used the WMD as tool of fear.

Rob

[Robert]

I used to agree with capital punishment.

I don't agree with it for a number of reasons. One is that the poor can't get good representation because our system is based on $.

Another is because God doesn't Himself kill.

But then again God has given the governments of this world the authority to deal with its problems (see Rom 13). By that I don't mean that God agrees with how earthly government do.

The whole thing got started with Adam (our father) when he made Lucifer the god of this world. God (I believe) has given us the responsibility of Adam's decision. In other words it's humanities' problem because it wasn't God's doing...it was our doing.

So just because a government has someone executed does not mean that it is in harmony with the principle of God's love. It simply means they are dealing with the problem with human methods.

Rob

[Woody]

Regarding : Wrong! Bush linked 911 with Saddam. That is a lie!!!!! Bush wanted war...he wanted some one's eye to blacken because America had been attacked. He wanted to look good (as Politicians do) so he picked on an old, bad enemy.

.............................................................

I would beg to differ.

There was a link to Saddam with 911. The terrorists had a training camp in Iraq. The very ones that highjacked the planes were trained in Iraq and Afganistan. How much more of a link do you need? Our soldiers have discovered the camps. My nephew was one of the Marines that lead the charge on them.

My point was that there was ONE war in Iraq. The first part gave us the legal right to pursue the second. Saddam signed the cease fire agreeing to inspections of WMD. When he stopped agreeing to the cease fire terms the war legally resumed. He went against the cease fire terms of the First War and also the 17 UN resolutions. How much more reason do you need for continuing the war.?? If you need more ... then I would suggest that you consider the fact that he was murdering and raping his own people and they needed us to rescue them. That was our Christian duty. And that was what we did.

Ask most Iraqis if they support what we did and they will say yes we thank you for ridding us of Saddam. There is an Iraqi Professor here at the Seminary (Andrews). He is strongly supportive of what Bush did. And rightly so because much of his family is still there in Iraq. If your family lived under Saddam.... I think you would support Bush also.

Redwood

[Woody]

Regarding: "The whole thing got started with Adam (our father) when he made Lucifer the god of this world."

..............................................................

Robert ... I think you might want to consider that God was the one that made Lucifer god of this world. When Lucifer fell ... God banished him from heaven and have him dominion of this earth. This is now Satan's domaine. Many Christian think that this Earth is God's territory. But in reality God has given this earth over to Satan for the completion of the Great Controversy. It is not God who is in control of this earth. Satan is in control and that power was given to him by God.

If GOD was in control of this earth ... I would not want to serve a God like that. The earth is an evil place and I hardly consider it something that God would approve of. He tolerates it as a test for the Universe to see what the results of Satan's way is all about.

Robert I am sure you know all this. I don't mean to infer that you necessarily disagree with ALL of that I have said. I just got in the preaching mode !! So please don't take it personally !!

Blessings,

REDWOOD

[Woody]

The above post should read that God "gave" Satan dominion of this earth not the word "have". We no longer have the modify option so I can't change it.

REDWOOD