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Saddam To Swing


Dr. Shane

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"And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I don't think we should be knocking off the rebellious youths of today (we'd lose a ton!), but God was showing that just having vermin exist are damaging to communities.

Absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! This is a terrible conclusion and gives permission for all the atrocities done in the name of religion.

God entered the "Old Covenant" [obey and live, disobey and die] because Israel wanted it that way. They insisted on heaven by their law performance. In other words they said, "God, you give us you law and we will keep it and in return you owe us heaven." So God said, "Okay, but if you sin you must die." What did they say? "All the Lord has said we will do"! What blindness!

That's the context of the OT/OC. Read it carefully! Yes, God knew that they couldn't keep the law, but they didn't. So He reluctantly entered into this covenant with them.

Human love, loves those who love back...and it hates their enemies. God's love, loves unconditionally. Hence He choose to take upon Himself the 2nd death instead of destroying those who were unjustly murdering Him. We must be careful not to put human attributes on to God.

Rob

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Regarding "Absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! "

I wish we could be a little more kind to those we disagree with.

When we say someone is wrong... we may not be fully understanding what they are saying. Robert earlier thought my beliefs were legalistic leaning but I would beg to differ.

I would like to see us saying that we disagree or can't see a particular view point. But, to say "Absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! ... Seems a little harsh to me.

Let each person have some respect for the way others see things.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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"All the information available to the President was also available to Congress" Regarding this: I don't beleive this to be totally correct. I think that not ALL in Congress have the security clearance to see the secret intelligence. I could be wrong. But, I think that at least a summary was presented to all. The actual intelligence may have been limited to certain congressman on both sides of the isle.

But, don't quote me. I am not absolutely sure. Maybe someone out there can say.

Either way ... I think that the point is still valid. The intelligence was known on both sides of the isle.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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I don't agree with it (capital punishment) for a number of reasons. One is that the poor can't get good representation because our system is based on $.

Another is because God doesn't Himself kill.

Robert, such strong statements you have been making. Too bad they aren't accurate.

Numbers 16:29-35 "If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; [then] the LORD hath not sent me. But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that [appertain] unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that [was] under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods. They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that [were] round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up [also]. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense."

It is so obvious that the Lord did this, it doesn't bear any further commment.

Regarding another comment you made about God reluctantly making covenants, I won't get into the authority that God gave the church to 'loose' or 'bind' here on earth with His accepting and sealing those actions in Heaven.

Your statements, because they are 'out there', cannot be taken seriously.

Holding a reasoned discussion becomes impossible.

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Only the Senators and Congressmen on the respective intelligence committees recieve the CIA briefings and have access to all the intelligence. These committees make their recommendations to the whole bodies. So not every congressman had the same information as the President but every congressman on the House Intelligence Committee and every senator on the Senate Intelligence Committee did have the same information.

So when I say "Congress had..." I am not saying every congressman had this or that. I am saying that Congress, as a body, had the information. If the CIA gives information to the President that they do not give to Congress, then the system of checks and balances breaks down. In order to maintain a system of checks and balances Congress must have direct access to information. Congressional committees are the tools that makes that possible.

Consider the budget for example. Imagine if congressmen did not have direct access to IRS information. They would have to place their complete trust in the President in regard to the amount of revenues collected. There would be no system of checks and balances.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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Regarding "Absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! "

I wish we could be a little more kind to those we disagree with.

Maybe, but this God kills thing gets a bit old. I'll try to be more patient.

Why would I want to love a God who threatens me with death?

First my motive would be wrong. Second you can't have an open, honest relationship with someone you are scared of.

We humans are good at projecting human ideas unto a God who says His ways are not our ways. We think we see God killing, so we emulate Him. His friends are our friends and His enemies our enemies. But God also loves His enemies; He can't do that if He kills His enemies.

Robert

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Too bad your mind is already closed.

My Mind??!

So, if God didn't open the ground up and swallow the rebels and if God didn't send fire from Heaven ("And there came out a fire from the LORD"), then who did? How are you going to twist this fact?

I'm willing to let the readers decide.

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Too bad your mind is already closed.

My Mind??!

So, if God didn't open the ground up and swallow the rebels and if God didn't send fire from Heaven ("And there came out a fire from the LORD"), then who did? How are you going to twist this fact?

I'm willing to let the readers decide.

Here’s how “God’s wrath” works:

A] Because unbelief/rejection are chosen

B] God withdraws

C] Trouble results

"My anger [i.e., God’s wrath - His reluant departure from those who reject Him] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them [see B], and I will hide My face from them [see B], and they shall be devoured [see C]. And many evils and troubles shall befall them [see C], so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils [see C] come upon us because our God is not among us?' [see B] And I will surely hide My face [see B] in that day because of all the [evil] which they have done [see A], in that [they have turned to other gods] [see A]" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

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Only the Senators and Congressmen on the respective intelligence committees recieve the CIA briefings and have access to all the intelligence

Are you sure about this? Or do they get the intelligence summaries?

/Bevin

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I saw an interview of one of the Democrat senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee that voted against the war. He said that after recieving the CIA briefings he went over to the CIA and went through all the evidence they had to decided for himself. He disagreed with the CIA director George Tennant about the threat and as a result he voted against the war. So yes, those on the intelligence committees get the same briefings from the CIA and have the same access to the information from the CIA as the President does.

That was why Republicans kept asking John Kerry (who is on the Senate Intelligence Committee) why he voted for the war and than against funding for it. Another issue with Kerry is that he actually skipped many of the CIA briefing so he wouldn't have known as much as the President. But that is not because the information wasn't available to him.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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So yes, those on the intelligence committees get the same briefings from the CIA and have the same access to the information from the CIA as the President does.

So the briefings were produced by the branch of Govt that the president controls. It was well known what answer GWB and his neo-con friends wanted to the question - and it was well known what the Bush administration did to people who did not give it the answers it wanted to hear

Quote:
He disagreed with the CIA director George Tennant about the threat and as a result he voted against the war.

So the briefings did NOT lead to the certainty which GWB projected to the world. GWB added the certainty on top of the biased reports that he had asked the branches of govt he controlled to produce

Quote:
why he voted for the war and than against funding for it.

Because the House and Senate did NOT vote TO GO TO WAR. They voted to ALLOW THE PRESIDENT TO DECIDE to go to war.

And GWB

  • lied to the public about the 9/11 Iraq tie-in
  • lied to the public about being sure where the WMD were,
  • insulted the UN weapons inspectors when they were telling him the truth that there were no WMD
  • insulted the generals who told him how many troops it would take to control Iraq
  • lied to the public about how thrilled the Iraqi populace would be to have us there
  • completely ignored the post-war planning
  • failed to find out what a mess the Iraqi infrastructure was

and is now trying to blame everyone but himself for the resulting mess that his administration - with their incompetence and corruption - caused.

Fortunately the American populace finally woke up and threw the bums out.

/Bevin

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It is true that the Executive branch of government is in control of all government agencies but when those government agencies brief Congress, the Executive branch does not control the facts given. Imagine a President that cuts taxes in hopes that it will raise revenues. If in fact revenues decrease, if he could control the reports given to Congress, he could tell the IRS to report that revenues actually increased rather than decreasing. Congress would be without a means to check the President and balance out the power structure.

We cannot ignore that the CIA director, George Tennant, wanted to invade Iraq during the Clinton Administration. In fact, Congress passed an Iraq Regime Change Resolution during the Clinton Administration. When President Bush took office George Tennant stayed on as the CIA director. George Tennant was in charge of the CIA briefings to both President Bush and the Congressional committees. George Tennant was the one in the position to spin the facts and lie about evidence and he was singing the same tune under Bush that he was singing under Clinton.

The Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq lists the reasons for invading Iraq. Notice two are the reasons some try to spin when they say Bush lied and said Saddam was linked to 9/11.

  • Violation of 1991 Cease-fire Agreement
  • Support of terrorism
  • Failure to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs
  • United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program
  • Iraq attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998
  • In 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security
  • Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region
  • The current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people
  • The current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council
  • Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq
  • Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens
  • the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations
  • Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself
  • Congress in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) has authorized the President "to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677
  • The Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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Just a few comments:

Here is a link to The Iraq Liberation Act which was passed during the Clinton Administration.

Here is how some critics claim Bush linked Saddam to 9/11.

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq

Of course that was true. Al Qaida was and still is in Iraq.

The attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations

That too is true. The 9/11 attacks did underscore the gravity of the threat.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? ... For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." Ezek. 18:23, 32

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" ibid 33:11

Although justice is served, it still gives me a sick feeling in my stomach.

I understand what you mean. I actually did pray for Saddam, that he would make his peace with God and with his fellow man, and that he would die like a man.

What really gives me a sick feeling in my stomach is all the million and a half peope who were his victims and also the victims who continue to die every day because of merciless killers like Saddam. For instance, why aren't people angry at those who blow up cars and destroy innocent men, women, and children every day in Iraq? Instead they're usually angry at American troops who are trying to bring peace to that region.

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

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Quote:
George Tennant was the one in the position to spin the facts and lie about evidence and he was singing the same tune under Bush that he was singing under Clinton.

and we can not ignore the fact that Clinton, not having a bunch of neo-con block-heads as his advisors, choose NOT to invade Iraq

because Clinton, unlike Bush, recognized (a) how shoddy the arguement was, and (B) how hard the problem was

/Bevin

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This needs to be modified to Saddam HAS Swung ... if that is a word. Saddam has Swung and they are not Sad ad dum who dun it.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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Clinton did not invade because 9/11 had not given us the resolve to do so. It was only after 9/11 that we realized the grave danger our enemies posed to us. Saddam was not connected to 9/11 but 9/11 underscored the danger he posed.

Let's not forget that Russian President Putin warned President Bush that Saddam was planning to attack the US with WMDs. When I put myself in Bush's shoes - the nation has just been attacked, CIA is telling me Saddam has WMDs, Brittish, Israeli and Egyptian intelligence is telling me Saddam has WMDs and Russia tells me Saddam is planning to attack the US with WMDs - I hope I would have done the same thing. At least in invading, I hope I would have managed the war differently.

Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com

Author of  Peculiar Christianity

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Well said Shane .... except that 9-11 WAS connected to Saddam. The terrorists that were involved in 9-11 were trained in the training camps in Iraq. As I mentioned before ... My nephew was one of the Marines that lead the charge on the camps. This fact is often hidden by the Democrats.

Another point was that WMD WAS found in Iraq. There were hundreds of missles with tons of Mustard Gas found in Iraq. Mustard Gas is a WMD.

Like I said these facts are often overlooked but they are true.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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How many of you saw the AP poll for the biggest HERO of 2006 ?

Any guess about WHO won the poll ?

All of you are right .... It was President George Bush .

Jesus Christ was a distant Fifth behind Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama. Barack doesn't advertise it much but his middle name Hussein. So he has a name similar to Saddam and Osama Bin Ladin. I expect with that name he will be elected president of the US.

I think we Christians should band together and vote more so Jesus can pass George Bush or at least Obama.

What do you think ??

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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[quote=Robert

But from God's point of view you and Saddam are equally guilty and deserve the 2nd death. Food for thought.

Rob

"Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."

 

But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9.

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Regarding : "But from God's point of view you and Saddam are equally guilty and deserve the 2nd death. Food for thought."

I would say that First of All ... We ALL deserve the 2nd death ... but Saddam was the one that deserved the First death.

May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.
 

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