The "last supper" was NOT a Passover Seder.

[8thdaypriest]

Matthew 26:26 "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread [740 artos], blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.'" (NKJ)

Mark 14:22 "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread [740 artos], blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.'" (NKJ)

Luke 22:19 "And He took bread [740 artos], gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.'" (NKJ)

1 Corinthians 11:23 "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread [artos];" (NKJ)

1 Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread [artos] and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes." (NKJ)

"Artos" is the Greek word for ordinary leavened bread.    It is not the unleavened bread, specified for the first meal of The Feast of Unleavened Bread, on the night following the Passover.

 Exodus 12:8 "And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it." (KJV) 

The Hebrew word for "unleavened bread" is #04682  "matstsah."  

Every reference to the last supper, uses the word "artos" for the "bread."   Just ordinary bread.  Not Passover unleavened bread.  

I'm wondering what others think of unleavened bread, representing our Lord's body.  

And what about church practice?  Every communion service I've ever attended, included little bites of unleavened bread.   I remember receiving the recipe for the Communion Bread from the woman who usually provided that for our service.  I noticed that honey was one of the ingredients.  But honey is specifically forbidden as an ingredient in the "matstsah" of Passover.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel has given us something to think about:

* Yes the Greek word is used when talking about the common bread that the family might eat.

* Yes, that same Greek word is used in the 14th chapter of Mark in the discussion of the so-called Last Supper.

*  However, it is also clear that Christ celebrated the Passover with his disciples:  Luke 14: 12, 14, & 16.     

* Mark 14: 16 tells us that it was the disciples that prepared the Passover meal.  Do you really thilnk that those disciples would violate the norm for Passover, when it was Passover that they were told to prepare for?  noI do ot.  The disciples were far from spiritually ready to violate such an important norm.

*  On the basis of the above, I am left with the thought that the Greek work had a secondary meaning that would allow it to be used for standard Passover bread that was not leavened.     

*  I F that is not true, one would have to say that in the time of Christ faithful Jews used leavened bread to celebrate Passover.    I am not willing to accept that as a valid position.

 

NOTE:  The Greek word was used 97 times in the New Testament.

    

[phkrause]

My thoughts on that are, didn't Jesus add this after they had the Passover meal? That is the foot washing and the bread&wine(grape juice) part at the very end?? It seems that the disciples, as GM mentioned, setup the Passover meal and than Jesus setup the new part which would than be carried out by the new converts that would be called Christians???

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus died on the 14th.  He WAS "our Passover" sacrifice. 

The Torah commanded that the slaughtering of the Passover lambs had to be done on the 14th of Nisan.  Anyone who pushes this back to the afternoon of the 13th is not justified in so doing. 

Exodus 12:18, Leviticus 23:5-6, Numbers 9:3-5.  

How could Yeshua eat "the Passover" after the sun set to begin the 15th."   He died earlier - at 3pm. 

The first meal of the Week of Unleavened Bread, was called "the Passover." 

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:09 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Luke 14: 12, 14, & 16

Not sure what these verses have to say re: our topic.  Maybe you were thinking of a different passage.

Luke 22:1  "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover."

v.7  "Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be sacrificed." 

[This was the 14th according to the Torah Passover prophecy.]

Yeshua WAS the Passover lamb.  He had to be killed on the 14th, to fulfill the prophecy. 

v.8  "And He sent Peter and John saying, 'Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat.'"

v.11  "Then you shall say to the master of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, 'Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples.'" 

v.13  "So they went and found it as He had said to them, and they prepared the Passover."

v.14  "Then He said to them, 'with desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you BEFORE I SUFFER."

Wait!!

Did Yeshua EAT "the Passover" on the 14th after sundown [contrary to the Torah]?  Doubtful!

If so, was He instituting a new rite?    

And was He breaking ordinary "bread" rather than the "unleavened bread" commanded in the Torah.  

Something doesn't fit.  

The Jews had a special ceremony to begin the Sabbath.  It was called Erev Shabbat.  They ate special Challah bread, and said special prayers.  Maybe they also had a special meal and prayers to begin the 14th - "Passover."   Maybe THAT  was the meal that Jesus ate with His disciples, BEFORE He suffered later that night and the next day.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:  I made a typo.  Thank you for catching it.  I meant to write Mark 14: 12, 14, & 16.

*  Those verses clearly state that Christ and the disciples prepared to eat the Passover meal.

*  The Greek work used to describe the bread that they used at that Passover meal was the Greek word that you used that has been translated as "bread" and you tell us it was leavened.

*  So, either that Greek word and more than one meaning, and  therefore can be used for Passover bread that was not leavened, or Christ celebrated a Passover meal, as the Bible says, but used leavened bread.

* I prefer to say that the Greek word had more than one meaning.  But, i am not a Greek scholar.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

43 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

he Greek work used to describe the bread that they used at that Passover meal was the Greek word that you used that has been translated as "bread" and you tell us it was leavened.

I told you that "artos" is UNleavened.

[8thdaypriest]

Meant to put a question mark after UNleavened.

Artos is WITH leaven.  It is NOT the "matzah" of Passover.   The Feast of Unleavened Bread was actually termed the "week of Matzahs."  

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachell, the various denominations are divided as to the nature of the bread that Christ used for the Last Supper.

*  I note that in one post you say:  " I told you that "artos" is unleavened." and is a second post, you say:  "Artos" is WITH leaven>"  I assume that one is a typo.  However, let us look at the actual definition of the Greek words.

*  Artos is the common bread of a family meal. It is considered by many scholars to always be leavened bread.  Thiis word tells us that Christ celebrated the Passover with the common bread served at a family meal.

* Azumos is a term that references unleavened bread.

 

https://www.onthewing.org/user/BS_Last Supper - Unleavened Bread.pdf#:~:text=The Greek for what we read as "unleavened,and not on bread%2C e.g.%2C I Corinthians 5%3A8.

Rachel, I do not know where you got your definitions of the Greek words.  But, I will tell you:  Never use either Strong or Young to define the meaning of a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek Biblical word.  They are used to tell us how such a word has been translated, which is   quite different from telling us what that word means.  For the Greek, your best source of  the Greek is the so-called Arndt & Gingrich.  Always use a lexicon.

 

 

[Kevin H]

22 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus died on the 14th.  He WAS "our Passover" sacrifice. 

The Torah commanded that the slaughtering of the Passover lambs had to be done on the 14th of Nisan.  Anyone who pushes this back to the afternoon of the 13th is not justified in so doing. 

Exodus 12:18, Leviticus 23:5-6, Numbers 9:3-5.  

How could Yeshua eat "the Passover" after the sun set to begin the 15th."   He died earlier - at 3pm. 

The first meal of the Week of Unleavened Bread, was called "the Passover." 

The different subgroups ended up with different ways of figuring out when Passover fell, thus the different subgroups celebrated Passover on different days within that time period. The evidence points to the Essenes celebrated Passover on Tuesday night of that week, while the temple had it for that Friday. This is why the synoptic gospels had the last supper as Passover, while John has the crucifixion to be Passover.  Thus Jesus would have celebrated the last supper on the Essene Passover on Tuesday night. The program would have gone until past midnight. Then Jesus going to the garden to pray through the night until he was arrested. Jesus would have had one inquiry before the 23 Sadducees with the high priest for 24 and a quorum to be considered the full Sanhedrin.  Then Jesus would have been taken across Caiaphas'   court yard and heard Peter's denial. 

Jewish law required a day to pass, thus to give some semblance of respecting the law, Jesus would have been held in a prison in Caliphas palace. Then taken out on Thursday where the rest of the day on Thursday into the evening the second Jewish inquiry before the 23 Sadducee members of the Sanhedrin, plus the high priest for 24 elders, then the trials before Pilate, Herod and back to Pilate. beaten by the Romans through the rest of Thursday night as they played the "King's game" with him, then on the cross by 9:00 AM Friday, to be able to die as the Passover Sacrifice for the Temple Passover. 

[8thdaypriest]

Very familiar with the Pharisee "firstfruits" vs the Sadducee "firstfruits."    Only way to get them all together at the Temple to hear Peter preach on Pentecost, was IF the Passover fell on a Friday (preparation day).  

I thought the Feast of Unleavened Bread [Passover Seder] was always to be eaten on the first full moon evening that followed the vernal equinox.  How could the Essenes get the full moon wrong?   Did they dispute about whether the moon was full?  

And the second element was the ripening.  Did not the priests at the Temple, have to inspect the barley to declare that it was ripe? 

When did the Essenes keep Firstfruits?  

The Sadducees believed that Firstfruits was to be celebrated on the day following the Feast of Unleavened Bread (the 15th).  They celebrated Firstfruits on the 16th.   [I agree with the Sadducees on this.]

The Pharisees taught that Firstfruits was to be celebrated on the day that followed the first 7th day Sabbath, that followed Passover.  They always celebrated Firstfruits on a Sunday. 

Not familiar with the Essenes sacrificing their Passover lambs 4 days earlier than the others.   Sounds like the Essenes  missed out on Peter's Pentecost speech.   They would have celebrated Pentecost on a different day.  

[Kevin H]

They did have debates over just when they saw the new moon, as well as the disagreement over the ripening of the fruit. and also, sometimes they would do a very strict following of the examining the fruit, while the temple frequently used calculations for the approximate time and celebrated the feast according to the calculations. Thus they usually ended up with different days for the feast.  The story of Jesus looking for the pre-fruit or pogoy (spelling?) on the fig tree but not finding any indicates that there was probably a need for a leap month in 31 AD, which again would lead to even more disagreement on the days of the feast. 

As for firstfruits, I had understood the Old Testament times to have celebrated firstfruits on the Sunday like the Pharisees did; and that Jesus rose on the feast of firstfruits. That all four of the gospels start out the resurrection narratives by quoting the Old Testament for firstfruits, but that instead of going into the agricultural events end up with the resurrections. 

[phkrause]

Here's an interesting article I just came across:

Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Seder?

Many people assume that Jesus’ Last Supper was a Seder, a ritual meal held in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Passover. And indeed, according to the Gospel of Mark 14:12, Jesus prepared for the Last Supper on the “first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb.” If Jesus and his disciples gathered together to eat soon after the Passover lamb was sacrificed, what else could they possibly have eaten if not the Passover meal? And if they ate the Passover sacrifice, they must have held a Seder.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/?

[BlessedMan]

On 12/11/2023 at 9:20 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Never use either Strong or Young to define the meaning of a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek Biblical word.  They are used to tell us how such a word has been translated, which is   quite different from telling us what that word means.  For the Greek, your best source of  the Greek is the so-called Arndt & Gingrich.  Always use a lexicon.

It is very rare for "word studies" to give us the correct meaning and the intended context of most subjects. While they can tell us a few things worth knowing, I would be scared to depend upon this method of "study" for the simple reason that CONTEXT must be applied and that should mean that  we compare scripture with scripture.

I am left trying to figure out what the point of this topic is.

 

[Dave Watchman]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:00 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus died on the 14th.  He WAS "our Passover" sacrifice. 

I wonder what year you think it was?

I can't understand too much about the word itself. Maybe it's just to do with the OT, NT difference of the Hebrew and Greek sources. I look at the Strong, it can seem to mean a lot: "food of any kind.

"As in Greek writings, and like the Hebrew לֶחֶם, food of any kind.

And the Divine bread that comes from Heaven:

"As the Divine λόγος, come from heaven, who containing in himself the source of heavenly life supplies celestial nutriment to souls that they may attain to life eternal.

https://biblehub.com/greek/740.htm

And like the other poster, I wonder why you're worried about it:

On 12/21/2023 at 2:20 AM, BlessedMan said:

I am left trying to figure out what the point of this topic is.

There must be a point.

Why I am concerned about it is an interest in anything related to the Daniel 9 timing, and the 70 weeks.

I agree with 457BC, and 27AD and 34AD. So the new moon Passover count from 30AD,(the middle of that week), had Jesus on the cross Friday, April 7, 30AD, as He obviously was following conjunction. The Old Time Jews were a day late following the sliver of the silvery moon.

"Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.” - Luke 22:7

I know Jesus was our Passover Lamb, but He couldn't have died on the very day that they ate the Passover lamb.

I also agree with: "And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. - Luke 22:15

I also agree with:

Peaceful Sabbath.
 

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:31 PM, phkrause said:

Here's an interesting article I just came across:

Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Seder?

Many people assume that Jesus’ Last Supper was a Seder, a ritual meal held in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Passover. And indeed, according to the Gospel of Mark 14:12, Jesus prepared for the Last Supper on the “first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb.” If Jesus and his disciples gathered together to eat soon after the Passover lamb was sacrificed, what else could they possibly have eaten if not the Passover meal? And if they ate the Passover sacrifice, they must have held a Seder.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/?

If that was the case, then Yeshua was NOT "our Passover" Lamb. 

The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Passover Seder) was to be EATEN after the sun set to begin the 15th.  If Yeshua died the next afternoon (still the 15th), it would mean that He was crucified on the High Holy Day - the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (rather than on Passover the 14th).  That doesn't make sense for many reasons.  That would mean the priests and scribes and Pharisees were out there at a crucifixion scene, ON the High Holy Day - the 15th.  It would mean that the day of Yeshua's death WAS NOT the "preparation day."

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 1/6/2024 at 1:08 PM, Dave Watchman said:

I wonder what year you think it was?

Personally, I believe more evidence points to 33AD.  Extra Biblical sources document an earthquake in Jerusalem on Passover in that year, and also a full blood moon coming up over Jerusalem, on the evening following the crucifixion. 

While I can agree there was a partial fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week, I look to the final days for the complete fulfillment.   I believe the 70 "sevens" was a dual prophecy.