Is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul compatible with the eternal gospel?

[phkrause]

Adventists believe that the Bible does not teach the inherent immortality of the soul and affirm that humans are an indivisible unity of life in bodily form.

https://www.adventistworld.org/gospel-and-life/

[Gustave]

The SDA teaching essentially is that at death the individual becomes as if they were never born in the first place. The individual at death ceases to exist apart from God's memory according to SDA Teaching. Would this be an accurate statement? 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I would not argue against the position that Gustave has stated.  However, I will expand upon it a bit.

The common understanding in Adventism, is that the human person in life is a living soul, to use the Biblical term. From that perspective the common belief would be that the human person does not have an identifiable part which is called a soul.  However, this is not a fundamental belief that is required for one to become a SDA member.

I am reminded of an important SDA member in Europe, who is now dead.  His name has slipped my mind.  In his lifetime he probably did more to support the mission and ministry of the SDA Church in Europe, and has been done by any other person.  It was his strong belief that humans had an independent soul.  His identity as a SDA, was not challenged. 

It should be noted that he believed that at the death of the person, the independent soul assumed an unconscious state.  That is actually the fundamental belief in Adventism.  So, a person who believes that humans have an independent soul that becomes unconscious at death can be considered to be within the accepted bounds of Adventism.

I understand that many Adventists would be surprised at my statement.  I simply point out that Adventism has a greater range of accepted belief than is often understood.

[phkrause]

On 5/7/2024 at 11:17 AM, Gustave said:

The SDA teaching essentially is that at death the individual becomes as if they were never born in the first place.

I've never heard that before! But for me personally i don't believe that!!

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, phkrause said:

I've never heard that before! But for me personally i don't believe that!!

A person prior to birth has no consciousness, they are as if they don't exist because they don't exist. 

If I'm understanding the SDA belief of the "intermediate state" - it's at death the individual has no consciousness and are truly as if they never existed in the 1st place. Isn't this what SDA teaching is? 

This seems somewhat odd to me when I compare what Jesus said in a couple of places with the SDA teaching. 

1st, Jesus said in Luke 12, 4 - 5:

“And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.  But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

This seems to indicate that there indeed is something that happens at death and it seems to be judgement - what Jesus appears to be here saying is that indeed a murderer may kill you but the murderer can only kill your body therefore don't fear people who  can "only kill the body" - instead we are told to fear the only who after He has killed has the power to cast "whatever it is that exists apart from the body" into hell. 

The common understanding of the Jews at Jesus' time (excepting the Sadducees) was that after death the spirit of the person continued and either went to Abraham's bosom or torment. It shouldn't be lost on anyone that Jesus spoke of just this very thing happening in Luke 16, 19 - 31: 

 

Does it not seem odd that IF the intermediate state of the dead was a false doctrine Jesus would confirm the crowds and His disciple's belief in it by incorporating the teaching into His own teaching (presumably because He couldn't noodle out a better way on short notice)???

In addition to this Jesus explicitly rebukes the Sadducees over their teaching that there isn't a spiritual state after death and this is significant given the Sadducees didn't even ask about this question. 

"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge them all." Acts 22,8

Paul identified himself as a Pharisee Acts 23, 6-7

According to Scripture Judaism was a 'Big Tent' and the Pharisees absolutely believed in an intermediate state that included conscious torment so when the Sadducees come up to Jesus thinking they would stump Him with a crafty question about a woman who had been married to 7 brothers (Luke 20, 27 - 40) they were probably embarrassed when Jesus rebuked all 3 of their errors. Remember, Jesus would have known what the Sadducees did & didn't believe. 

The question the Sadducees put to Jesus was only who's wife out of the 7 brothers would the woman be. 

• Jesus says "for when they rise from the dead" (resurrection proved)
• Resurrected will be like angels in heaven (angels proved) and angels don't marry.
• Jesus next says "AS FOR THE DEAD" God is (not was) the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob - God is not God of the Dead because "ALL LIVE TO HIM". It becomes apparent to me "spirit" is proved here.

Now, I understand that Adventists will immediately be thinking of "The dead don't know anything" but I submit to you that the context is speaking of what happens "under the sun". 

I would encourage anyone to read the 14th chapter of Job - Job is considered to be the oldest book in the Bible and it speaks of the dead not knowing much of what happens under the sun either. 

• Verse 21: "his son's come to honor him and he does not know it"

however, the very next verse is very telling about the state of the dead as understood at the time of Job. 

"he [the dead guy] feels only the pain of his own body and he [the dead guy] morns only for himself" .

This can hardly be argued to be describing that the dead are unconscious or in the same state as if they had never existed in the first place. 

The New Testament I'd say is quite vocal about what the Sadducees rejected [spirit] for in Hebrews St. Paul says that those living on earth and worshipping God are joined to the spirits of the just who are stated to be at a "festal gathering of the WHOLE PEOPLE" including God and the angels. In the ancient Creed this is spelled out as "the communion of saints". Its not reasonable to conclude there is a festive gathering in heaven and everyone stated to be present is conscious EXCEPT the spirts of those just people who are just there floating around totally oblivious to everything in a state compared to non-existence. 

If at death we literally become as if we never existed in the 1st place we would indeed be separated from God which is contrary to what we're told in Romans 8, 38 - and what Jesus told His Disciples when they mistaken Him for a Ghost - Jesus didn't say 'there are no such things as Ghosts', or, 'a ghost is just a demon'. Jesus verified ghosts exist by saying what a ghost did and didn't have - pretty odd way to affirm such a thing doesn't exist don't ya think? 

"The son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Good were it for that man if he had never been born". Mark 14,21.

If at death Judas became as if he never existed there would be no point to (like Luke 12, 4 & 5 says) casting him into Hades after he died nor would it make sense that Lazarus was being comforted if he was likewise unconscious and oblivious to anything and everything. 

Of course there are other Scriptures but I'm sure you've all heard them before. At the end of the day I thought it would be a good thing to spell out how I'm viewing this question. Understand I'm not condemning anyone here for believing that spirits don't exist or that a person has a spirit but that at death it's rendered so unconscious to be in a state of non-existence. I'm just saying how I think of it and why.