Trying to understand the SDA position on their Creed or lack thereof?

[Gustave]

In the Trinity section of this Forum Dr. Paul provided information as to SDA beliefs which some within the SDA Church associate with a Creed.

Quote

Dr. Paul said: 

1. Seventh-day Adventists did not start out as a creedal church. While they eventually issued a list of Fundamental Principles (later called Fundamental Beliefs), they referred to them as having a descriptive rather than prescriptive character (this is what Adventists generally hold in common vs. this is what everybody should believe). Initially, it was simply the editor of the main church periodical capturing what the members generally believed. Eventually, that list was printed in more official church publications, such as the yearbook, yet the statement (esp. in 1931) was still not voted because it was not intended to be a creed. Therefore, they intended to denied that statement an official vote. This changed somewhat in 1946 and 1980, when it was decided that the Fundamental Beliefs could be changed only by all delegates of the world field at a General Conference in session and when a revised statement was actually voted by those delegates. Yet, the preamble, at least in theory, still stresses the tentative nature of the document, thus trying to stay away from a creed. In practice, some people would like to employ it as a creed. However, since it is not a creed and since its statements are fairly rudimentary, there is still quite a bit of room for differing views on technicalities and details. Therefore, one has to be careful when one pastor, church member, or even administrator, makes statements. It isn’t always representative for the entire church. In fact, this is most likely the case for most churches. For example, one cannot simply assume that Hans Küng’s writings on papal infallibility are fully representative for the entire Catholic Church and yet his writings are a witness to the views of some in that church

This sounds somewhat nebulous - does this mean that a Seventh-day Adventist can be a member in good standing and the Pastor performing the Baptism for said individual can know before hand that the person rejects the virgin Birth of Christ, that Christ is Eternal God, etc? The reason I ask this is because its my understanding that someone being Baptized into the SDA Church MUST (has to) swear fealty to Ellen White being the Spirit of Prophecy - as in that part of the Fundamental Beliefs (Creed) is mandatory. 

[Gregory Matthews]

I should possibly talk about a creed later.  For now, I will mention EGW.

A person who joins the SDA Church is asked to believe in the "gift of prophecy," as defined in the Bible, in the chapter on spiritual gifts.  Most people associate that spiritual gift with Ellen White.  However, the individual is not required, according to our official requirements, to believe that Ellen White had that spiritual gift.  Today, there are SDAs who do not beleive that EGW had that gift and many of them remain members of the SDA Church.  Some chose to leave the SDA Church.

[Gregory Matthews]

Presently, a person joining the SDA Church may choose to between two sets of belief.  The first is a set of 13 statements of belief, which have been in place for many years, and is the set that I used when I was in active ministry.  Note that # 8 is a statement on Spiritual Gifts that does not mention EGW.  This set is still in common use.  The second set is a much shorter set of beliefs that can be used.  Note:  These have been copied from the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Baptismal_Vow

Here are the 13:

1.  Do you believe there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons?

2.  Do you accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for your sins and believe that by God’s grace through faith in His shed blood you are saved from sin and its penalty?

3.  Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal Saviour believing that God, in Christ, has forgiven your sins and given you a new heart, and do you renounce the sinful ways of the world?

4.  Do you accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, your Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and accept His promise of transforming grace and power to live a loving, Christ-centered life in your home and before the world?

5.  Do you believe that the Bible is God’s inspired Word, the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian? Do you covenant to spend time regularly in prayer and Bible study?

6.  Do you accept the Ten Commandments as a transcript of the character of God and a revelation of His will? Is it your purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord and the memorial of Creation?

7.  Do you look forward to the soon coming of Jesus and the blessed hope when “this mortal shall . . . put on immortality”? As you prepare to meet the Lord, will you witness to His loving salvation by using your talents in personal soul-winning endeavor to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing?

8.  Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church?

9.  Do you believe in church organization? Is it your purpose to worship God and to support the curch through your tithes and offerings and by your personal effort and influence?

10.  Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; and will you honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful; abstaining from all unclean foods; from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages; the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption; and from the misuse of or trafficking in narcotics or other drugs?

11.  Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Do you purpose, by the grace of God, to fulfill His will by ordering your life in harmony with these principles?

12.  Do you accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion and desire to be so baptized as a public expression of faith in Christ and His forgiveness of your sins?

13.  Do you accept and believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire to be a member of this local congregation of the world church?^[3]

The second, shorter set of statements follows below.

1. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, and do you desire to live your life in a saving relationship with Him?
2. Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and do you pledge by God’s grace to live your life in harmony with these teachings?
3. Do you desire to be baptized as a public expression of your belief in Jesus Christ, to be accepted into the fellowship of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and to support the church and its mission as a faithful steward by your personal influence, tithes and offerings, and a life of service?^[2]

 

Some people would understand this set to require a belief in the so-called  28 Fundamental Beliefs.  Others would not understand it in that way, and would understand to be  more general in nature.   Personally, I always understood it to apply to the 13 listed above and not the 28. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The so-called 28 Fundamental Beliefs were never intended to become a creed.  Sadly, they are often used as a creed today. Those beliefs are stated in short paragraphs, general only one, on a page just before the chapter which explains the belief.  The short statement is the official SDA statement.  The expanded chapter which follows, is not

In the original book, Chapter 17 deals with Spiritual Gifts.  The Statement at the beginning mentions EGW and is therefore the official statement of SDA belief.

It is on the basis of #8, in the set above of 13, which has been the standard for many years, and is still the one most often used, that I say that the official position of the SDA Church does not require a member to believe that EGW was a Biblical Prophet.

[Gustave]

At what point in time was the below revised so that it reads as you posted it? 

Quote

"Do you believe in the Bible doctrine of "Spiritual Gifts" in the Church, and do you believe in the gift of the Spirit of Prophecy which has been manifested in the remnant Church through the ministry and writings of Mrs. E.G. White!"

Baptismal Vows_Appendices.pdf (adventistarchives.org)

I see # 11 in the long list and # 2 in the short list requires fealty to the fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church. On page 224 of the book "seventh-day Adventist Believe, a Biblical exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines" it says; 

"The gift of prophecy was active in the ministry of Ellen G. White, one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. SHE HAS GIVEN INSPIRED INSTRUCTION FOR GOD'S PEOPLE LIVING DURING THE TIME OF THE END...."

I obviously could be reading this wrong but I'm getting the impression that if the Baptismal vows require one to pay homage / swear fealty to the fundamental beliefs and acceptance of Ellen White being inspired and passing all the Biblical tests of a prophet is written into the fundamental doctrines - it would seem logical that the vows require incoming members to swear fealty to Ellen White. It's also possible that the fundamental doctrines of SDA book I have is outdated and was replaced by a newer book with that wording omitted? 

The more I look into these things the more I recognize the similarities between Adventism and Catholicism. 

[Gustave, you and I probably do not have total agreement as to the similarities between Adventism and Catholicism.   There are also differences.  However, I do beleive that there are many similarities that are not understood by most Adventists--Gregory Matthews.]

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:  I appreciate your response.  I need to better explain my comments and correct where I may have been responsible for misunderstandings.

Fundamental Beliefs:  This was first published as a list of 27 statements of belief.  It has been expanded to 28, and may be expanded to a larger number in the future.  This was not intended to be a creedal test of Fellowship, or to put it in other words, it was not intended to be a requirement for what one should believe in order to be a SDA member.  Rather it was intended to be a statement related to the common beliefs that are held in the Big Tent of Adventism.  Each of the stated beliefs is stated in a chapter devoted to that belief.  On a page prior to each chapter there is a short formal statement that has been formally voted as a common statement of SDA belief.  Again, that is not intended to be a required statement that must be held in order to be a SDA member.  The published chapter that follows that formal statement is an expanded explanation of the range of how that beleif is understood and practiced within Adventism.  however, those chapters often do not contain the full range of belief and practice within Adventism.  As an example, the chapter on the Sabbath, in the book that I am looking at, has about 16 pages.  It correctly states that we believe that the Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday evening and ends at Sundown on Saturday evening.  But it fails to mention that there are minority Adventists that begin and end the Sabbath at other times of the day.  Adventism allows for such.

NOTE:  The numbering of the fundamental beliefs in the book of 27 is not exactly the same as in the book of 28.

 

Baptismal Vows: are statements of belief that are required in order to become SDA member and to remain a SDA member.  They exist in the two forms that I have listed--13 statements and 3 statements. They commonly have slight differences in wording such as:  "Do you believe. . . .? & I believe. . .  In the shorter set of three, reference is made to SDA fundamental beliefs.  I understand that reference to refer to the set of 13.  Others understand it to refer to the 28.

 

Doctrines, Teachings, and Policies is the title of an article published in the Review on November 28, 1991, and written by Calvin B. Rock.   In that article, he states that Doctrines consist of the 27 voted belief statements as I have commented on above.  He calls Teachings as not being formally voted, but as having high value, and clearly states that they are not to be taken as a "Test of Fellowship," or to put it in other words, they are not a specific requirement of belief in order to be a SDA member.  He then says that a Standard is a guide to the application of the Doctrine (my wording).  He further comments on Policies, which guide the operation of the SDA Church at its various levels. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, I will now comment on your post just above my post above.

*  You comment on a statement on page 224 is the book on the 27.  Your comment comes from the chapter which lists how the voted belief is understood and practiced in Adventism.  That is a statement of common understanding.  however, it is not the only understanding in Adventism.  Other understandings exist and are allowed to exist within our membership.  Yes, the voted statement of belief is found in the short paragraph on page 216, does make specific mention of Ellen White.

However, there is a very important issue related to the SDA understanding of the role and ministry of Ellen White.  When we say she was a prophet, we are not saying it in the sense that people say it about Jean Dixon.  Absolutely not.  Never.  That is often misunderstood.  However, there are considerable differences in understanding as to what her role was as a prophet.  Multiple books have been published in Adventism in recent times that attempt to give us greater clarity as to her role and ministry.  A common understanding does not exist at this point in time.

I shall simply sum in understanding:  The Bible, in the typical Protestant use of the term, is the authorative guide to both salvation and the writings of Ellen White.  Period.

*  In relation to your citation to some previous Baptismal vows and more:

Appendix A:  I have never seen that one, which appears to be a suggested set of Baptismal Vows which were never accepted.

Appendix B and others that follow, seem to be official Baptismal Vows at specific times in SDA history.  I use the Baptismal Vows which I beleive to be currently in effect.  The ones that I have always used require a beleif in Spiritual Gifts as presented in the Bible and do not require a specific beleif about Ellen White.

[Gustave]

That makes sense, I now see.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave, let me put it in further perspective.

In my 20 years as a VA chaplain, we placed a Roman Catholic magazine in our literature rack for anyone to take who wanted it.  I would generally review it to see what it said.  I think that it was St. Anthony Messenger.  I especially liked a regular feature where someone would write in, state that they could not agree with a specific Catholic teaching, and ask if they could still be considered a good Catholic. 

The responding priest would always begin with a statement as to why that was a Catholic teaching.  He might say the teaching was considered essential for salvation.  Sometimes he would state that teaching was not considered essential for salvation.  Therefore, the person could reject it and still be considered a good Catholic. 

Seventh-day Adventists have many teachings on which the Bible may not be totally clear and/or are not essential for salvation.  This is part of the reason for our "Big Tent" thinking.

Is this just another way in which SDAs are similar to Catholics?   

In addition, in my background of observing Catholics who converted to Adventism, they did not reject everything that they had learned in the Catholic faith.  Yet they were accepted as a SDA because no person, or denomination, is 100% perfect in every aspect of their faith.  The Holy Spirit is ultimately responsible for leading in the understanding of what God wants us to understand, beleive and practice.  There are teachings that have value, but are not essential for salvation.

  

[Gregory Matthews]

Earlier in this thread, I posted a link to an article that I stated would probably offend everyone, but had something of value to consider.  The following quote from that article illustrates in one example a similarity between Adventism and the Catholic Church.

 

We might make the obvious comparison between the world’s Catholic leader in Rome and the leader of an ancient world-empire in Rome. However, it is just as easy to draw a comparison between the world’s Adventist leader in Washington, D.C., and the leader of today’s world-empire in Washington, D.C. Both men adopt the titles and attributes of their secular equivalents. 

[Gustave]

On 4/27/2024 at 5:55 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave, let me put it in further perspective.

In my 20 years as a VA chaplain, we placed a Roman Catholic magazine in our literature rack for anyone to take who wanted it.  I would generally review it to see what it said.  I think that it was St. Anthony Messenger.  I especially liked a regular feature where someone would write in, state that they could not agree with a specific Catholic teaching, and ask if they could still be considered a good Catholic. 

The responding priest would always begin with a statement as to why that was a Catholic teaching.  He might say the teaching was considered essential for salvation.  Sometimes he would state that teaching was not considered essential for salvation.  Therefore, the person could reject it and still be considered a good Catholic. 

Seventh-day Adventists have many teachings on which the Bible may not be totally clear and/or are not essential for salvation.  This is part of the reason for our "Big Tent" thinking.

Is this just another way in which SDAs are similar to Catholics?   

In addition, in my background of observing Catholics who converted to Adventism, they did not reject everything that they had learned in the Catholic faith.  Yet they were accepted as a SDA because no person, or denomination, is 100% perfect in every aspect of their faith.  The Holy Spirit is ultimately responsible for leading in the understanding of what God wants us to understand, beleive and practice.  There are teachings that have value, but are not essential for salvation.

  

Yes, that's similar - Catholics are free to follow their conscience provided that the belief doesn't deny defined Faith. 

Other similarity would include the rejection of Sola Scriptura and the belief that Ellen White points people to Jesus and the Bible. I would say similar things about the Blessed Virgin. 

So, a Catholic who converts to the SDA Church is at liberty to affirm / believe the Nicene Creed which requires no possibility of Christ sinning &  loosing His Salvation between the Incarnation and death on the Cross as well as rejection of Ellen White being a prophet in any sense of the word and a rejection of her writings as anything other than commentary or fiction? 

[Gregory Matthews]

I am not aware that the Nicene Creed requires no possibility of Christ sinning.  Please enlighten me.  Where have I misunderstood it.?

[Gustave]

"

"I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

The Son is the same Divine Substance as the Father & Holy Spirit and everything spoken of Him by the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms was fulfilled by Christ "according to the Scriptures".  To be the Christ everything spoken of the Christ had to be fulfilled otherwise He wouldn't have been the Christ. 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

i agree with your following statement.

The Son is the same Divine Substance as the Father & Holy Spirit and everything spoken of Him by the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms was fulfilled by Christ "according to the Scriptures".  To be the Christ everything spoken of the Christ had to be fulfilled otherwise He wouldn't have be.

[Gustave]

Consubstantial means "the same Substance of the Father". As in there is only one Substance which is God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit). Not three separate Persons made of the same Substance (like 3 pencils) but one single Substance that is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. If the Son ceased to exist you wouldn't have the Father or the Holy Spirit - any combination whereas one of the Persons ceased to exist you wouldn't have the other 2.