Have we lost our way??

[Joe Knapp]

Our church was founded on the principle of urgent warning of the fact we are living in the time of the judgment.

Our publications were called Midnight Cry or Loud Cry(?)

Our early church focused its attention on warning the people, we are living in the time of judgment.

Is this not important now?  When is the last time you heard a sermon about living in the time of judgment? Who is doing any work to warn the people anywhere, that we are in the time of the judgment.

 

What if, the judgment of the dead is over, and now is the time of the judgment of the living?

 

Is our message still critical?  Shouldn't it be a priority?

While we focus on all this love for all, if we truly loved the people of this world, should we be warning them?

Even secular people now talk of being in the end times. Do they know we are in the time of judgment? Whose job is it to tell them?

Quote

“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
NASB

Are we awake or a sleep?

[Challenger]

Posted February 

 

Joe, You statement below caught my attention.

 

" What if, the judgment of the dead is over, and now is the time of the judgment of the living?"

 

Assuming the judgement of the living has started, How does Jesus judge individuals who still have the freedom to choose up until they die?

[Joe Knapp]

 

8 hours ago, Challenger said:

Assuming the judgment of the living has started, How does Jesus judge individuals who still have the freedom to choose up until they die?

Challenger, good question.

Let's look at the bible. Mat 25:14-30

This is a deep parable about the Holy Spirit and more.

In this parable, there are three groups at the end of time.

Group 1 and 2 have the Holy Spirit. Group 3 has one measure of the Holy Spirit.

¹⁹ “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.  NASB

So this is Jesus coming to judge what they have done with the Holy Spirit.

²⁴ “Now the one who had received the one talent also came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed. ²

 

Is this true? No, he is lying about Jesus.  Who does this? Not Christians.

From this parable, we can see the world divided into 3 groups of people.  The first two is an explanation of the later rain.

The third is the world. Every single person in the world receives at least one measure of the Holy Spirit.

²⁵ And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you still have what is yours.’

 

What is one role of the Holy Spirit? To convict people of sin.  Some people do not want to be convicted of sin. These could be LGBT, Satanic worshipers, Baby killers, drug dealers etc.   So they would like to bury that HS in the ground. "Don't Judge me"

But, now they have to be accountable, and they want to give it back.  They clearly don't want the Holy Spirit.

²⁶ “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You ^[f]worthless, lazy slave! Did you know that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter seed? ²⁷ Then you ought to have ^[g]put my money in the bank, and ^[h]on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. ²⁸ Therefore: take the talent away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

So here Jesus is taking the one HS and giving it to the one with ten. This is the process of the latter rain. God is redistributing his HS to the people who use it the most. 

²⁹ “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. ³⁰

Then comes the judgment: ³⁰ And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That is eternal judgment language. 

These people are judged while they are alive.

Some people think we have right up to the time of the second coming to decide. Not according to these parables.

[Challenger]

Yes Joe, I agree, the living will be judged while they are alive. They, both the righteous and the wicked, will witness the seventh trumpet, which brings salvation to a close, followed by the bowl judgements when Gods wrath will be poured out in full strength, on those who received the mark of the beast, according to the third angles message. (Rev. 14:9&10) Then Christ returns. 

With that being said, would it not make sense to you that at the time the first angel gives it's message, "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgement has come," is actual referring to the judgement of the "living" those who will experience the tribulation, rather than the pre-advent judgement which began back in 1844, nearly two centuries ago?

With these thoughts in mind, would it make sense to you that the living will pass judgement upon themselves. The righteous will refuse to take the mark of the beast, and the wicked will receive it, therefore they only experience the bowl judgements. This then is how the living shall be judged. This is logical, even a small child can understand it. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

What if:

*  We have nothing to fear related to the judgment, as our salvation is assured, and we may trust in that?

* The judgment is actually related to God, and His justice in granting we sinners salvation?

*  In this judgment, so to speak, Saten says Ralph is a sinner, you have the record, and you cannot fairly grant salvation to Ralph, and condemn me.

*  God says yes, here is the record. through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the ministry of Christ, all sin has been removed from Ralph.  He is free from rebellion and rebellion will never rise again in Ralph.

*  Therefore, I am fair in granting eternal life to Ralph and to admit him into that life in close association with me/

[Challenger]

Gregory, I don't consider your scenario a possible reality, as it predates the time in which Satan was cast out of heaven. Christ alone will decide those who will make up   His Kingdom, unlike the account with Jesus and satan regarding Job.

Bible history indicates God's most effective warnings are those that include both destruction and a message. God's trumpet judgements (Rev.8,&9) initiate the Great Tribulation (which we as Adventists have put in the past) and they serve as a catalyst to achieve the human responses that God desires. Whom will the living choose to worship  during the closing 1335 days of probationary time, God or Satan. This is why God allows satan and his angles to appear on earth and set up his mark. Those who choose to take his mark will have decided to worship satan, and those who do not in order to buy and sell will have excepted the three angles messages of which the third warns against receiving his mark or else they will receive the full wrath of God during the seven bowl judgements.

The judgement of the living is very simple to understand should we allow the prophecies to speak.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I fail to understand your comment above.  My comment was focused on what in Adventism is commonly called the Investigative Judgment,  which is thought to be happening currently, and not prior to the time when Satin was caste out of heven.

[Challenger]

Gregory, the topic of this thread as I understand Joe's original post has to do with the judgement of the "Living," not the investigative judgement started in 1844. I agree that it is ongoing. I don't believe as your scenario implies that satan has any say in either the investigative nor the judgement of the living which will be a future event. Christ alone will decide the fate of all, and satan will not be questioning His decisions.

[Joe Knapp]

But my point is this. If it was very important to the pioneers to warn the people or the current judgment, why is in not important to us today to warn the people.

If we are living in the time of the judgment of the living, then it would seem to me that this warning is even more important now.

The vast majority of bible believing Christians do not understand this doctrine. Many believe they will have a second chance. I was listening to a podcast interviewer asking an expert on bible prophecy about the trouble in the Middle East. The expert said "well Jesus is going to have to clean that up when He comes"

So as a church have we lost our way because this warning is not a priority to us?

[Gustave]

Quote

Joe Knapp said: The vast majority of bible believing Christians do not understand this doctrine. Many believe they will have a second chance.

What Christians don't understand that they will be subject to the Judgement? I can assure you that Catholic's and Eastern Orthodox Christians are well aware of this (are reminded of it each time they attend Church). If I'm not mistaken Catholics and Orthodox account for about 2/3rds of Christians and Lutherans number something like 60 million members and they also believe there is no second chances. 

When a person dies they undergo the particular judgement immediately and at the end of days everyone stands in the General judgement. 

[Challenger]

11 hours ago, Joe Knapp said:

But my point is this. If it was very important to the pioneers to warn the people or the current judgment, why is in not important to us today to warn the people.

If we are living in the time of the judgment of the living, then it would seem to me that this warning is even more important now.

 

Joe, I'm assuming this is your logic, the judgement of the living which began (?) and since that time millions have died. If I have this right please answer the following questions. 

 Has God been judging all of mankind since this judgement started, or just Christians?

 Explain to me why God will judge these individuals differently then those who died before the judgement of the living began?

 

[Joe Knapp]

Sorry, I don't know the answers to those questions.

 

[Challenger]

Joe, can I assume then, that you do not understand, the judgement of the living?

Perhaps our moderators will share their thoughts. 

If I were to post what prophecy reveals when correctly understood, and it being different then what we as Adventists understand, would you consider it?

 

[Joe Knapp]

If you disagree with my understanding of Mat 25, that I posted here, then I would like to see it.

[Challenger]

Joe, glade you've decided to continue our discussion.

I don't understand your comments on Mat. 25, clearly explaining how a loving God, will actually conduct the judgement of the living, which must take place shortly before the return of Christ, as they will not experience death.  Therefore, they will not be judged by Jesus, as all previous individuals who have died, being judged out of the books of deeds. So that I may understand you better, I have a few questions. 

According to Mat. 24:14, how will the gospel go out into all the world before the end?

As you understand it, what "actual event" marks the close of probation?

How will a loving God, who's intent is to save as many as possible, going to get the attention of all the inhabitants of the earth that probation is about to close?

What will individuals have to do, to show Jesus that they are His followers?

 

[Joe Knapp]

New American Standard Bible
This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
 

As to how it will go?

We don't know.

If I had told you 30 years ago, that there will be hundreds (many thousands) of people preaching the gospel in all different languages, on video, on the internet, you would have said that is crazy.  A Google search for "Gospel of Jesus" shows About 381,000,000 web pages.

There are probably some using radio.  Today, there is almost no corner of the world that some missionaries are not working.  Perhaps not that many in Muslim countries, but there is radio and internet.

Seems to me that prophecy has been fulfilled.

 

[Challenger]

Joe, I appreciate your response and will  not dispute the 381,000 web pages, plus radio stations broadcasting the gospel. However, hoisting web sites and broadcasting the message, is one thing but getting the masses to actually listen and seriously consider it is another matter.  Google, " What percentage of the world has not get heard the gospel of Jesus Christ." From my search nearly half have not, not to mention seriously considering it.  

To be clear I don’t believe Christians understand the judgement of the living correctly and how God will take the gospel into all the world, forcing all to seriously consider it.  So l’ll answer my own questions and you see if this makes more sense of prophecy, and the love, and  justice of God. Feel free to share your comments.

 Rev. 7:1-4, is just one of many prophecies revealing God’s forth coming destruction upon the world, and the “144,000 servants,”  who will be giving the “Everlasting Gospel.” According to Rev.10:7, and 11:18, they are called “servant prophets,” Rev. 14:1-5 reveals they are the “first fruit” of the harvest of the earth, meaning the best, and will thereafter follow Jesus wherever He goes. Note in Rev. 16:5-7 and 18:24, the distinction between the saints and prophets. This is the “Spirit of Prophecy” that will be present during the time the actual remnant is upon the earth. 

God’s most effective warnings are those that include both destruction and a message. God’s four literal trumpet judgements (Rev. 8: 6-12) are the destruction portion of His warning, and initiate the Great Tribulation and they serve as a catalyst to achieve the human responses that God desires. Who will you choose to worship as salvation is drawing to a close, Me your creator and redeemer, or Satan thee Antichrist, claiming to be God?

The first of four literal earthquakes (Rev. 8:5) opens the Great Tribulation it will rip up thousand of miles highways, collapse overpasses and bridges, and stop most transportation. The literal Meteor showers that follow will set wildfires for months. One-third  of earth’s oxygen producing trees will be consumed, respiratory ailments will become a problem for most. The raging fires will be compounded by two literal mega-asteroids impacts. With megatons of ash from fires and debris from the asteroids impacts circulating in the atmosphere, the added darkness caused by numerous literal volcano eruptions will make life a short term situation at best. Millions will die from drinking  literal contaminated water. Typhus and the plagues will be rampant. God wants the survivors to realize that their planet is fatally wounded, so  they will thoughtfully consider their desperate need of a savior. 

By gaining the attention of the world through His wrath, God will use His servants the prophets, ordinary people from every nation, and tongue, to speak for Him for 126O literal days, given the latter reign to present the “Everlasting Gospel,” during the seven trumpets. 

The first of their four messages, “fear God” will be given during the sounding of the first four trumpets, and all will have the fear of God in them, because death and destruction will affect every community on earth. They will proclaim,  “Give Him glory”, because He created the earth and is now going to destroy it.  “Because the hour of His judgement has come, worship Him who made the heavens, the earth, and springs of water,” because He will judge we who are living during the 1260 days of the trumpet judgements, while salvation is still available.

About two and a half years into the tribulation, at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, God permits the devil to appear on earth physically, along with his angles, and he will masquerade as Almighty God. (Rev. 9:1-11;  Rev. 13:11-18) He is the dreaded Antichrist, and will claim to be God, even calling fire down from heaven, and declare that he has come to establish a thousand years of peace on earth. Millions of people will ultimately conclude that he is God and be willing to obey him with astounding zeal and devotion, since he claims responsibility for the judgments. 

At the sounding of the sixth trumpet, (Rev. 9:13-21) God will permit the devils four angles which He (Jesus) has kept bound for this very point in time, to kill a third of mankind. It is during this trumpet that the devil introduces  his mark, in which nobody can buy or sell, least they have his mark. Those saints refusing his mark will be killed. The strongest testimony a Christian can give for Christ righteousness and truth is to lay down their life. The saints are told martyrdom would continue until a predetermined number of saints are killed. (Rev 6:11)

 According to 2 These. 2:10 and 11. God permits the devil to appear, because most of the remnant at this point and time into the tribulation (2 1/2 yrs.) will have rejected the testimony of Jesus spoken by His servants the prophets. Therefore, God sends the wicked this powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, and therefore be condemned for not believing the truth, but delight in wickedness.

By the seventh trumpet salvation closes as everyone will have made an informed decision to either worship Jesus, or the Antichrist, the devil and receive his mark in order to buy or sell, even though the third angels message warns against it, warning those who do shall drink the full cup of God’s wrath. (Rev. 14:9-10) This is how prophecy explains the Judgement of the Living, as the everlasting gospels goes out lnto all the world, when understood correctly.

Following the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the seven last plagues or bowl judgements are poured out upon the wicked having the mark of the beast.  At the end of the seventh bowl, the forth literal earthquake will follow and the sun is blackened, moon turns the color of blood, stars fall from the sky, the heavens depart, and every mountain and island are moved out of their places, and literal 100 # hailstones fall upon the wicked. (Rev.16:17- 21) Jesus then appears sitting at the right hand of the Father. 

Rev. 14:16, And He [Jesus] that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. Man's efforts are helpful, but ultimately it is Jesus who recuses His saints.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Knapp]

Thank you for sharing that. That helps me to understand your position better.

Let me ask you something. Where do you think the pole shift fits in there?

 

[Challenger]

Have no clue to what you referring to. Rephrase your question may help.

[Joe Knapp]

You talked about all those natural disasters.  Many scientists are concerned about recent movements in earths magnetic poles may be causing natural disasters and may lead to a pole shift in the near future.

If we are going to include natural disasters in the conversation, I don't see how we could not consider a pole shift.

[Challenger]

 

 

"What if, the judgment of the dead is over, and now is the time of the judgment of the living?" This Joe is your question in your first post on this thread. And my response all along is to get you to consider what I believe is a more accurate understanding of the "judgement of the living" other than what our church teaches, and what appears you accept as well. 

So after considering my understand, which of the two explanations makes more sense to you and is better supported by prophecy?

As to the pole theory, I give it no creedence, I'll stick with the more sure word of prophecy, from God who knows the beginning from the end. Too, do not think of the trumpet judgements as natural disaster, if that were the case then they could be logically explained as such, in the same way Pharoah did when experiencing the ten plagues. These are God's judgements, make no mistake about that! And they will come in the same chronological order given in the trumpets.

Since Adventist believe they are symbolic and happened in the past, we are not mentally and spiritually prepared for what God is about to do, along with the rest of Christianity. That said, are we not in the same boat as those believing in a secrete rapture?

 

 

 

[Joe Knapp]

Challenger

Pole shift is not a theory. It is a fact. We are in a pole shift.

Now there is speculation how it will end, and when it will cause the earth to roll. But the evidence is real.

Quote

Too, do not think of the trumpet judgements as natural disaster, if that were the case then they could be logically explained as such,

Well, the pole shift must be from God.  It is not a natural phenomenon.

This has been a wonderful conversation. You have sparked my thinking.

 

[Challenger]

2 hours ago, Joe Knapp said:

Challenger

 

This has been a wonderful conversation. You have sparked my thinking.

 

  Must you be so vague. In what way have I sparked your thinking.