Have we lost our way??

[Joe Knapp]

Our church was founded on the principle of urgent warning of the fact we are living in the time of the judgment.

Our publications were called Midnight Cry or Loud Cry(?)

Our early church focused its attention on warning the people, we are living in the time of judgment.

Is this not important now?  When is the last time you heard a sermon about living in the time of judgment? Who is doing any work to warn the people anywhere, that we are in the time of the judgment.

 

What if, the judgment of the dead is over, and now is the time of the judgment of the living?

 

Is our message still critical?  Shouldn't it be a priority?

While we focus on all this love for all, if we truly loved the people of this world, should we be warning them?

Even secular people now talk of being in the end times. Do they know we are in the time of judgment? Whose job is it to tell them?

Quote

“Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
NASB

Are we awake or a sleep?

[Challenger]

Posted February 

 

Joe, You statement below caught my attention.

 

" What if, the judgment of the dead is over, and now is the time of the judgment of the living?"

 

Assuming the judgement of the living has started, How does Jesus judge individuals who still have the freedom to choose up until they die?

[Joe Knapp]

 

8 hours ago, Challenger said:

Assuming the judgment of the living has started, How does Jesus judge individuals who still have the freedom to choose up until they die?

Challenger, good question.

Let's look at the bible. Mat 25:14-30

This is a deep parable about the Holy Spirit and more.

In this parable, there are three groups at the end of time.

Group 1 and 2 have the Holy Spirit. Group 3 has one measure of the Holy Spirit.

¹⁹ “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.  NASB

So this is Jesus coming to judge what they have done with the Holy Spirit.

²⁴ “Now the one who had received the one talent also came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed. ²

 

Is this true? No, he is lying about Jesus.  Who does this? Not Christians.

From this parable, we can see the world divided into 3 groups of people.  The first two is an explanation of the later rain.

The third is the world. Every single person in the world receives at least one measure of the Holy Spirit.

²⁵ And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you still have what is yours.’

 

What is one role of the Holy Spirit? To convict people of sin.  Some people do not want to be convicted of sin. These could be LGBT, Satanic worshipers, Baby killers, drug dealers etc.   So they would like to bury that HS in the ground. "Don't Judge me"

But, now they have to be accountable, and they want to give it back.  They clearly don't want the Holy Spirit.

²⁶ “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You ^[f]worthless, lazy slave! Did you know that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter seed? ²⁷ Then you ought to have ^[g]put my money in the bank, and ^[h]on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. ²⁸ Therefore: take the talent away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

So here Jesus is taking the one HS and giving it to the one with ten. This is the process of the latter rain. God is redistributing his HS to the people who use it the most. 

²⁹ “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. ³⁰

Then comes the judgment: ³⁰ And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That is eternal judgment language. 

These people are judged while they are alive.

Some people think we have right up to the time of the second coming to decide. Not according to these parables.

[Challenger]

Yes Joe, I agree, the living will be judged while they are alive. They, both the righteous and the wicked, will witness the seventh trumpet, which brings salvation to a close, followed by the bowl judgements when Gods wrath will be poured out in full strength, on those who received the mark of the beast, according to the third angles message. (Rev. 14:9&10) Then Christ returns. 

With that being said, would it not make sense to you that at the time the first angel gives it's message, "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgement has come," is actual referring to the judgement of the "living" those who will experience the tribulation, rather than the pre-advent judgement which began back in 1844, nearly two centuries ago?

With these thoughts in mind, would it make sense to you that the living will pass judgement upon themselves. The righteous will refuse to take the mark of the beast, and the wicked will receive it, therefore they only experience the bowl judgements. This then is how the living shall be judged. This is logical, even a small child can understand it. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

What if:

*  We have nothing to fear related to the judgment, as our salvation is assured, and we may trust in that?

* The judgment is actually related to God, and His justice in granting we sinners salvation?

*  In this judgment, so to speak, Saten says Ralph is a sinner, you have the record, and you cannot fairly grant salvation to Ralph, and condemn me.

*  God says yes, here is the record. through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the ministry of Christ, all sin has been removed from Ralph.  He is free from rebellion and rebellion will never rise again in Ralph.

*  Therefore, I am fair in granting eternal life to Ralph and to admit him into that life in close association with me/

[Challenger]

Gregory, I don't consider your scenario a possible reality, as it predates the time in which Satan was cast out of heaven. Christ alone will decide those who will make up   His Kingdom, unlike the account with Jesus and satan regarding Job.

Bible history indicates God's most effective warnings are those that include both destruction and a message. God's trumpet judgements (Rev.8,&9) initiate the Great Tribulation (which we as Adventists have put in the past) and they serve as a catalyst to achieve the human responses that God desires. Whom will the living choose to worship  during the closing 1335 days of probationary time, God or Satan. This is why God allows satan and his angles to appear on earth and set up his mark. Those who choose to take his mark will have decided to worship satan, and those who do not in order to buy and sell will have excepted the three angles messages of which the third warns against receiving his mark or else they will receive the full wrath of God during the seven bowl judgements.

The judgement of the living is very simple to understand should we allow the prophecies to speak.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I fail to understand your comment above.  My comment was focused on what in Adventism is commonly called the Investigative Judgment,  which is thought to be happening currently, and not prior to the time when Satin was caste out of heven.

[Challenger]

Gregory, the topic of this thread as I understand Joe's original post has to do with the judgement of the "Living," not the investigative judgement started in 1844. I agree that it is ongoing. I don't believe as your scenario implies that satan has any say in either the investigative nor the judgement of the living which will be a future event. Christ alone will decide the fate of all, and satan will not be questioning His decisions.

[Joe Knapp]

But my point is this. If it was very important to the pioneers to warn the people or the current judgment, why is in not important to us today to warn the people.

If we are living in the time of the judgment of the living, then it would seem to me that this warning is even more important now.

The vast majority of bible believing Christians do not understand this doctrine. Many believe they will have a second chance. I was listening to a podcast interviewer asking an expert on bible prophecy about the trouble in the Middle East. The expert said "well Jesus is going to have to clean that up when He comes"

So as a church have we lost our way because this warning is not a priority to us?

[Gustave]

Quote

Joe Knapp said: The vast majority of bible believing Christians do not understand this doctrine. Many believe they will have a second chance.

What Christians don't understand that they will be subject to the Judgement? I can assure you that Catholic's and Eastern Orthodox Christians are well aware of this (are reminded of it each time they attend Church). If I'm not mistaken Catholics and Orthodox account for about 2/3rds of Christians and Lutherans number something like 60 million members and they also believe there is no second chances. 

When a person dies they undergo the particular judgement immediately and at the end of days everyone stands in the General judgement. 

[Challenger]

11 hours ago, Joe Knapp said:

But my point is this. If it was very important to the pioneers to warn the people or the current judgment, why is in not important to us today to warn the people.

If we are living in the time of the judgment of the living, then it would seem to me that this warning is even more important now.

 

Joe, I'm assuming this is your logic, the judgement of the living which began (?) and since that time millions have died. If I have this right please answer the following questions. 

 Has God been judging all of mankind since this judgement started, or just Christians?

 Explain to me why God will judge these individuals differently then those who died before the judgement of the living began?

 

[Joe Knapp]

Sorry, I don't know the answers to those questions.

 

[Challenger]

Joe, can I assume then, that you do not understand, the judgement of the living?

Perhaps our moderators will share their thoughts. 

If I were to post what prophecy reveals when correctly understood, and it being different then what we as Adventists understand, would you consider it?