Woody Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I would like to point out that ALL Christians claim that we get truth from the Bible and that the way we understand God's will is through study of the scriptures. BUT ... I would like to say that even with sincere Christians there are as many interpretations of the Scripture as there are people. So ... it would not appear a reliable source of determining God's will. ??? Either that ... OR the Holy Spirit is not doing His or Her's job very well. Why do we have so many Christian churches would be the next question. I guess that a lot of people have not found out the secret of knowing God's Will. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Redwood, the kind of thing you mentioned is EXACTLY what I am talking about. What IS the problem? HOW does the process work? What has gone wrong? Why hasn't it worked? Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to bring His people into one accord, and to lead them into all truth. Why hasn't it worked? How can it work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Jesus promised that his Spirit would DRAW ALL Men unto Him. So ... Why has it failed if it has failed? Like you say ... What has gone wrong? Why do we have a different interpretation of scripture with ever Christian and every SDA ??? If the Spirit was doing its job fully ... we would not need this forum because there would be nothing to discuss except the goodness of God. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Good point. And now, who will provide some answers? Where are our resident scholars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 >>What are the guiding principles to help a student discern whether or not it is, indeed, the Spirit's voice?<< So, what were the guiding principles that led one to answer, following…? 1 Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth. Am I right in that I begin to perceive a dialogic position – this thread, that ‘night seasons’ trumps ‘voices’? Why cannot the Holy Spirit guide in the one instance as well the other? or by other means…? >>Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to bring His people into one accord, … << “Christ, and Him crucified.” I believe we are all in accord with that exhortation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted December 31, 2006 Author Share Posted December 31, 2006 We have a perfect example of Christ and how He went about in His days on earth. He came in a time of much 'studying' and 'rightous' talk by the religious leaders of the day. So why did the people turn to Jesus? By the thousands! One reason? "Because he spoke with authority, and not as the scribes." Jesus' example? "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." His great prayer for His people: "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy Word is truth." Truth is very important to Jesus--extremely important. Where do we find 'Thy truth'? 'Thy Word'--the Bible. How should we approach the Bible? 'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." Thus, the importance of 'rightly dividing the Word of truth.' So, to follow Jesus' example will include to love His truth, and to carefully study His Word in order to discover His truth. How does the Holy Spirit fit into that picture? 'When He, the Spirit of truth is come, He will guide you into all truth.' The Holy Spirit is here described as 'the Spirit of truth.' who will guide God's people into 'all truth.' Thus, the importance of the search for truth. Which brings us back to square one: if that is true, then why the conflicting understandings of God's Word? If the study were Holy Ghost led, then the Spirit would lead the students into 'all truth.' Obviously, that hasn't happened. Why? Any thoughts, Redwood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted December 31, 2006 Author Share Posted December 31, 2006 ‘night seasons’ trumps ‘voices’? Ahhh, Monsieur James, good to hear from you . . . Permit me to present a scenario (perhaps more than a scenario, but that is neither here nor there) . . . Someone receives a dream in which what appears to be an angelic messenger instructs him that the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years is allegorical, symbolizing the purification of all nations, at the end of which all will be saved. There is not necessarily a conflict with Scripture, simply a way of understanding Scripture. How might one determine whether or not this guidance was from God or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 "To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, they have no light of dawn." Isaiah 8:20. Compare Scripture with Scripture -- and ask the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Both of these things are essential. Either one without the other can lead to being lead astray by the Master Deceiver. God bless, Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted December 31, 2006 Author Share Posted December 31, 2006 I believe the lure of Christ over the leaders of His day was because of obvious 'care' for the person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 I think that CoAspen has really hit the nail on the Head. I think that the answer it there in CoAspen's post. The answer is to dumb down our religion ... our faith. Jesus always presented a simple gospel. His focus was on Belief. Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. It was the Jews that tried to make "faith" complicated. And now ... it is the Church. Yes the SDA church that tries to make faith complicated. And it is done through the doctrine. David ... I would say NO to your question "Thus, no need for doctrinal Bible sutdies? But they should not be the emphasis. If our faith is built on the church's doctrine ... it would have to change and evolve over time as the doctrines have. The SDA church used to be and still fights with legalism. Let's focus our faith on the simplier truths that Jesus taught. BELIEF in Him. Let us not focus NOR forget about the doctrines. As our above discussion indicates ... if they were important ... the Holy Spirit would have enlightened us about them long ago. So many have died not understanding the doctrines ... so they must not have been critical or the Holy Spirit would have done its job sooner for those people. Those who have not seen yet had faith in God to believe are rewarded. God's way has to be the SIMPLE Gospel. Simple Faith. We only get sidetracked when we FOCUS on the Doctrines and make them the CENTER. I believe that baptism and membership should be granted BEFORE we have an understanding of the doctrines. The doctrines take a lot of time but God accepts you into the fold with the simple blind acceptance of Him through FAITH. Requiring an understanding of Doctrine BEFORE baptism puts the focus on the divisive teachings of doctrines. Lets unite under the Belief in Christ and His sacrifice for us. The doctrines can come with time. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 Let's focus our faith on the simplier truths that Jesus taught. BELIEF in Him. Let us not focus NOR forget about the doctrines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Regarding "I believe the Bible teaches otherwise" ................................................... David ... tell me about the Eunich and the Jailor ... The jailor found out about Jesus and he and his family were baptized with in ONE hour. Do you feel that one hour was enough time to learn about Christ and all the doctrines? Let alone prove that they were converted and behaving like a Christian. This is what the SDA church requires. They call it conversion and walking in newness of life before baptism. The Bible says ... Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I have to add David ... That there is a big difference in Baptism in the early church and membership in the SDA church. The Early church based baptism on Belief. Membership in the SDA church is based on getting 51% of the people present at a particular church service to vote for you. This is the ONLY way you can be a member of the SDA church ... through a vote. Baptism does not allow you in the SDA church. It has to be through a 51% vote of the congregation. Since the early church did not vote on membership but instead allowed you to join the church with BELIEF through baptism ... I would have to say that the SDA church operates entirely differently now compared to the early church. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Okay, but still . . . when it comes to understanding the Bible, how does one recognize the Spirit's guidance? Take the example of someone who claims to receive dreams, which guide him or her to interpretations of Scripture--even allegorizing Scripture. What are the guiding principles to help a student discern whether or not it is, indeed, the Spirit's voice? Thank you for you response, David. I'm not sure this is the answer you are seeking but maybe it will add something worth considering. I'm not sure one person can adequately give an answer to another that will either satisfy or give full assurance that God has surely given guidance through His Spirit, except to describe one's own personal faith. I was interested in a couple of comments by Ellen White that made it clear to me it was not my responsibility to be sure that others believe that which I have found to be true. I can only paraphrase her exact words as I don't have the source immediately in front of me. One thought addressed the question by a couple re: whether she thought they ought to marry or not. Part of her response, as close as I can remember, "God does not speak through the conscience of one person for another" Also, "I do not hold my conscience as an example for others." I do not remember the context of that last remembered statement. My personal opinion on whether to believe another's personal testimony re: God's communication with them, is largely determined by what their influence is in drawing others to trust less in themselves and trust more in Jesus. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help." Psalm 146:3 KJV "For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." 1 Corinthians 2:11 AMP Judging from what this last scripture says, if I am to believe what God promises, it will not be difficult to recognize His voice when He speaks to me, as the Spirit within will harmonize with the Spirit speaking, and will be consistent with the written Word already made plain. "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13 KJV "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." John 4:23 NKJV "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" John 16:13 KJV " Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6 NASB God bless!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Why the 'conflicting' understanding....we all be unperfect humans! How about a greater focus on a relationship with God and less about whether or not everyone is in 'agreement! "I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me." John 17:23 NASB Maybe some people believe this above to be the reason. While there is no doubt , as imperfect human beings we fall far short of revealing Jesus, it does seem obvious that when individuals reveal impartial love for others, even though having idealogical differences, the cohesive principle of love adds a oneness emanating from He Who is Love. One does not have to espouse the name of Jesus to experience love for others, but to continue receiving that characteristic there will come the time in God's plan for the individual, the person will come face to face with the known claims of Jesus Christ. If they do not resist those claims we will see each other in the kingdom of God. "... and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8:32 NASB "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Lets unite under the Belief in Christ and His sacrifice for us. The doctrines can come with time. A doctrine only means a teaching. A doctrine of the Word only means a teaching of the Word. Jesus is the Word. When we no longer find importance in the doctrines of the Holy Word, and no longer find it within us to understand doctrine, we are no longer able to understand Jesus, thus making it more difficult to place trust in He whom we do not know. I would even suggest (as it is in man to fear that which is unknown to him) it is the primary reason why most religious people fear God or the Son whom He sent to save us. "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." John 5:38-40 NKJV "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. " John 1:1-3,14 ASV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 "To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, they have no light of dawn." Isaiah 8:20. Beryl I'm glad you were paying attention, Beryl. It seems equally important to remember this principle. "So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD." Deuteronomy 8:2-4 NKJV "But He answered and said, "It is written, ' MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"" Matthew 4:4 NASB Their emphasis LHC Some that profess to believe Jesus, reject the Word that He speaks from the old covenant, making it very confusing to new believers. All the more reason to ask for the Holy Spirit when reading the Word rather than placing trust solely in another's understanding of the Scriptures. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 A doctrine only means a teaching. A doctrine of the Word only means a teaching of the Word. Jesus is the Word. When we no longer find importance in the doctrines of the Holy Word, and no longer find it within us to understand doctrine, we are no longer able to understand Jesus, thus making it more difficult to place trust in He whom we do not know. Very well put, Life. And THAT is the rub! The artificial, man-made dichotomy of Jesus and His Word! 'All that matters it to love Jesus,' but not to worry about knowing what Jesus stands for! To me, it would seem kinda like deciding to marry someone without knowing what the person is like, and what it would mean to be married to him or her--what life would be like. And, there is another cause for concern. In the final test of our faith, the great deception will appear so convincing that it "will deceive, if possible, the very elect." It will sound like, look like, appear to give evidence of being the real McCoy. Only, its not. The ONLY way we will be able to distinguish truth from error, is to know God's written Word, the Bible. That will be the test, in the last days. The voices will authenticate the deception, great religious leaders will authenticate it, even, apparently, we are told, in the remnant church, many will fall away, some of our "brightest lights" will fall in behind it. Our safety then will be to know the Bible, to know the truth. Even today, people who claim to be Holy Spirit-led advocate to come out of the Adventist church, or that the Sabbath really doewsn't matter that much, and other such things. What is the test? God's holy Word, the Bible. Problem is, of course, that such advocates also claim the authority of the Word. How, then, to determine the validity of the impressions and teachings? I submit, first of all, that there is no substitute for careful study of the Bible. In doing so, 'lean not unto thine own understanding.' An attitude of humility and openness to God's revealed will, would seem critical. Secondly, in doing the careful study, take the Bible as it reads. Language is the medium of communication. Don't read into the words, more than they mean. Beware of allegorizing Scripture, unless the passage clearly states that it is allegory, or the context clearly indicates such. Thirdly, compare Scripture with Scripture. One cannot hang a doctrine on one or two verses. Well, that is for starters. Any thoughts? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I wish I could say that I have faith in what you have said LifeHiscost ... "All the more reason to ask for the Holy Spirit when reading the Word rather than placing trust solely in another's understanding of the Scriptures" But If the above was true then we would not have so many beliefs in the christian community. I simply don't trust myself to be able to know I am really being LEAD by the Spirit rather then my own bias. I am sorry to be so negative but it is my experience. I wish the Spirit was more reliable in our lives. Maybe we don't allow it to work and that is the problem, Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 1, 2007 Members Share Posted January 1, 2007 Redwood said: Quote: But If the above was true then we would not have so many beliefs in the christian community. There does seem to be a lot of threads in the cloth called *Christianity*.... I wish I could say that I have faith in what you have said LifeHiscost ... "All the more reason to ask for the Holy Spirit when reading the Word rather than placing trust solely in another's understanding of the Scriptures" I know many pagans who *know* the scripture better than many, if not most, Christians. They read and study the Bible (mostly to ask confounding questions of Christians), but the one thing they do NOT do is to pray to God before reading. To my way of thinking , it would seem to me that praying is essential before reading the Bible. And while I think it is good to ask for the Holy Spirit to be *present* when scripture is read, it seems like it would be even better to specifically ask for Spirit-led insight and understanding, for clarification, for ... discernment ... when explicitly STUDYING the scriptures. Just imho... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Quote: To my way of thinking , it would seem to me that praying is essential before reading the Bible. And while I think it is good to ask for the Holy Spirit to be *present* when scripture is read, it seems like it would be even better to specifically ask for Spirit-led insight and understanding, for clarification, for ... discernment ... when explicitly STUDYING the scriptures. That is so true, Pam. That is why the Holy Spirit was given to us. "...when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His Own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking what is Mine and making it known to you." God has already given to us a guidebook -- the Bible -- and the work of the Holy Spirit is not to introduce "new truths", but to enlighten us on what has already been given to us. "To the law and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light in them." Yes, our UNDERSTANDING of truth will grow. Some things that are not fully understood will become clear. But the truths (doctrines) spelt out in the Bible will not change. The Sabbath IS the seventh day -- even a changing of the calendar cannot alter that! Even if they change the "starting day" of the week, that does not change the fact that -- counting from creation, the "seventh day is the Sabbath" -- whether or not mortal man changes the calendar so that the 7th day falls on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. And the same principle applies to all other Bible-based doctrines. Our understanding of these is continually growing, but the basic principle still remains. The Holy Spirit's work is to gradually open our minds to a greater understanding of the existing truths, and give to us a deeper understanding of what Christ has done for us. God bless, Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 I simply don't trust myself to be able to know I am really being LEAD by the Spirit rather then my own bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 God has already given to us a guidebook -- the Bible -- and the work of the Holy Spirit is not to introduce "new truths", but to enlighten us on what has already been given to us . . . Yes, our UNDERSTANDING of truth will grow. Some things that are not fully understood will become clear. But the truths (doctrines) spelt out in the Bible will not change . . . The Holy Spirit's work is to gradually open our minds to a greater understanding of the existing truths, and give to us a deeper understanding of what Christ has done for us. Well said, Beryl. That is so incredibly important. We should never forget these facts, nor ever lose this focus. "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not to thine own understanding." Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Well, that is for starters. Any thoughts? Dave Amen and Amen. One point that I do see a difference of opinion, not wanting to be contrary, merely suggesting I see nothing wrong with establishing personal faith in the first and only time I hear God speak to me about some point of faith. I take my view based upon God's call to Abraham to take his son of promise and offer him on the mount as a sacrifice. This was instruction given with no precedent but implicitly obeyed. Perhaps the secret is in how well we know the voice of God and how much we trust the voice. And of course it was followed in similarity by God our Father offering His own Son as sacrifice, though perhaps preceded by God Himself as alluded to here. "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Peter 1:20 KJV "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: " John 10:27 KJV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Maybe we don't allow it to work and that is the problem, I've found that it's more logical for me to accept that I'm the problem, and not the Holy Spirit and/or God or anyone else. I think Adam had the same problem and that means we have it in our genes. "And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Genesis 3:12 KJV Thank God for His promises, even when waiting for fulfillment. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV " For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." Galatians 6:15 NASB Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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