Are some of us too worldly?

[lazarus]

I was talking to a friend who works in the GC communications department recently and I had to admit to her that I don't watch any SDA TV, Radio and rarely read SDA mags. I'd rather watch TBN or CNN rather than watch 3ABN. I have never ever found anything very useful on Adventist.org. I go to many other Christian sites just mainly non SDA. This forum is the only SDA "media" I consume. I'm an SDA pastor. I know many other people like me. Are we just too worldly or is it something else?

[D. Allan]

It's something else, Lazarus.

~d.allan

[Clio]

It's something else.

I listen to only Christian music, watch light-hearted, as innocent as I can find programming, when I watch programming on TV, spend 2 hours every morning in Bible study and prayer, and this is the only SDA media site on the web I visit.

[John317]

I was talking to a friend who works in the GC communications department recently and I had to admit to her that I don't watch any SDA TV, Radio and rarely read SDA mags. I'd rather watch TBN or CNN rather than watch 3ABN. I have never ever found anything very useful on Adventist.org. I go to many other Christian sites just mainly non SDA. This forum is the only SDA "media" I consume. I'm an SDA pastor. I know many other people like me. Are we just too worldly or is it something else?

I'm sure most of us are far too worldly, but I doubt that's the only reason for what you are talking about. Sometimes it's probably bad programming. Sometimes it's that we get used to watching certain kinds of programs and listening to certain kinds of music so we stay with that. Maybe we need better, more imaginative, editors and managers. It may be boredom with what we consider predictable magazines-- magazines that are almost more like in-house advertizing or even propaganda than journals dealing seriously with the issues and questions of a church in the midst of the post-modern world. [Or should that be, perhaps, "a post-modern world in the midst of a church?"]

How about

http://www.atsjats.org/publication.php?journal=1

3 ABN

http://www.hopeint.org/

[D. Allan]

Quote:

I ... spend 2 hours every morning in Bible study and prayer,...

Nothing can replace such a practice. Blessings on you, Clio.

~d.allan

[Clio]

Heh... Thanks D. Allan. But it's not *my* practice. It's the practice of the Holy Spirit.

My alarm is set for 6:15... I haven't used it in months. Instead, I'm awakened between 5 and 5:30, no matter how tired I am, and nudged until I head out to the dining room table to read my Bible.

In the last two weeks I've finished reading Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians and the first two chapters of Galatians. I find that when this happens, and I'm refocused to a specific area of the Bible rather than whatever I've been studying to that point, there is something coming in the near future for which I was in need of a "refresher" course.

Heh... Wonder what's headed my way?

[D. Allan]

j317 Your 1st site for the Adventist Theological Society looks interesting. I browsed a document by Whidden on the Trinity as an expression of God's love. We were created for loving relationships, he says. The everexpanding universe is to be understood as God's everexpanding love.

The second site is by 'Our Firm Foundation', a group who caused the SDA church much misery. Just about everybody is to worldly according to them. Except them.

Try these sites:

www.Spectrummagazine.org

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/index.htmorg

I prefer Specturm since it is a little more liberal.

What is a worldly person? Should we try to be 'unworldly?'

[D. Allan]

Quote:

But it's not *my* practice. It's the practice of the Holy Spirit.

I understand. When I had a prayer-partner I used to wake up in the middle of the night and pray through the Psalms for for my prayer-partner for an hour. Now He lets me sleep in and after breakfast we spend an hour or two together.

[Tom Wetmore]

...What is a worldly person? Should we try to be 'unworldly?'...

:tu

...Or "other-worldly", perhaps?

This accusation of worldliness always frustrates me because your question always comes to mind. Its broad brush stoke inflammatory generalized condemnation which tells me nothing!

Taken at its literal face value, a "worldly person" is a person of this world, a world-ling, an earthling, a human being. And this is impliedly contrasted with the obvious alternative which denies a certain fundamental reality which brings to mind a favorite quote of my mother-in-law:

Quote:

That person is so heavenly minded that he is no earthly good.

Tom

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Lazarus,

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

faith, hope and love.

Works are good but these we need. They come by begging, not that God will withhold, but we need to cry out from the deep for help, we are the ones that must acknowledge our need. We are Laodicean.

Norman

[Neil D]

Quote:

I'm sure most of us are far too worldly, but I doubt that's the only reason for what you are talking about.

Um....I'm sorry, but I have to come right out and say this-

Speak for yourself, Norm....

That's a judgement call, and you had best not be passing that type of judgement on us...

Quote:

Sometimes it's probably bad programming. Sometimes it's that we get used to watching certain kinds of programs and listening to certain kinds of music so we stay with that. Maybe we need better, more imaginative, editors and managers. It may be boredom with what we consider predictable magazines-- magazines that are almost more like in-house advertizing or even propaganda than journals dealing seriously with the issues and questions of a church in the midst of the post-modern world. [Or should that be, perhaps, "a post-modern world in the midst of a church?"]

And sometimes, we get tired of ...listening...

The question is...Who are we listening to?

Maybe if we listen to what God says and then, [gasp!] DO what He says....maybe we wouldn't be so bored. But then, who am I to suggest that we may not be listening...Heaven knows, I do my fair share of not listening...

Quote:

This accusation of worldliness always frustrates me because your question always comes to mind. Its broad brush stoke inflammatory generalized condemnation which tells me nothing!

This I concure with, Tom...It's too easy to say what we dont like or what the other guy is NOT doing....Heaven knows that it sure ain't [gasp!] ME!!!! [Tongue firmly planted in cheek in case someone out there didn't see that]

Quote:

Taken at its literal face value, a "worldly person" is a person of this world, a world-ling, an earthling, a human being. And this is impliedly contrasted with the obvious alternative which denies a certain fundamental reality which brings to mind a favorite quote of my mother-in-law:That person is so heavenly minded that he is no earthly good.

You know that when I took classes in humanities, I remember recieving a lot of flack because I couldn't use those 'liberal' thoughts...I couldn't be a human being, but rather had to be spiritually minded...[What IS being spiritually minded anyways?]

And yet, when I read EGW, I read that human beings were composed of the mental physcial and spiritual,....at least when refering to the mind. It occurs to me that being human is what God really wants...not people craving for power over other people, not dominating others, not controling others....just being fully human...What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with this sentence- If you are Christian, you are more fully human than a sinner who is without Christ.

[Doug]

Everyone has a different definition of what it means to be worldly.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Neil,

Quote:

Um....I'm sorry, but I have to come right out and say this-

Speak for yourself, Norm....

Are you talking to me or Tom or John317? I did not make that statement

Norman

[David Koot]

Are we just too worldly or is it something else?

I expect that often is the case, though not exclusively. One issue would seem to be the calibre of the programming. Denominational programming is not on a par with what the world has to offer. Great strides have been made, but I expect it is still pretty 'flat.'

Yet, aside from that is the issue of worldliness. Even IF the programming were major network/prime time calibre, what then? The Bible describes God's last-day people as lukewarm. Worldly, while still believeing. God also warns His people to stop being worldly. As for television programming, years ago, when I came to Christ, I lost interest in most television programs. No one said that I should. It was not discussed. It happened. I came face to face with Jesus in my experience, and after that encounter, I lost interest in worldly programming. To this day, that hasn't changed. If anything, I see an increasing urgency to separate myself from worldly amusements, and prepare to meet Jesus. and I see God calling to His people, "How long halt ye between two opinions?"

Dave

[aldona]

Everyone has a different definition of what it means to be worldly.

I've noticed that "worldly" usually seems to mean "has different tastes in music, books, entertainment and hobbies than I do."

We don't hear accusations of "worldly" when referring to people who are mean, unloving, selfish, greedy, proud, unkind, intolerant, who love to gossip, break up friendships and stir up division in the church. (All values which are promoted by the "world" on a daily basis.)

It is a term which is reserved for those who like to watch movies, or listen to music that doesn't do much for us, or read books that we don't like, or wear jewelry.

aldona

[D. Allan]

Quote:

What's wrong with this sentence- If you are Christian, you are more fully human than a sinner who is without Christ.

The Christian has realized more of the potential of being human. To her the 'world' is actually more important, more meaningful than it was 'without Christ'. Her religion does cause her to withdraw from the world, but to participate in it in a more meaningful, more fulfilling way. Is this sentence correct: 'True spirituality is practical.'

~d.allan

[John317]

Quote:

I'm sure most of us are far too worldly, but I doubt that's the only reason for what you are talking about.

Um....I'm sorry, but I have to come right out and say this-

Speak for yourself, Norm....

That's a judgement call, and you had best not be passing that type of judgement on us...

You mistakenly thought Norm said that when I was the one who actually said it.

I simply meant that none of us lives as close to Christ as we might.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Quote:

I'm sure most of us are far too worldly, but I doubt that's the only reason for what you are talking about.

Um....I'm sorry, but I have to come right out and say this-

Speak for yourself, Norm....

That's a judgement call, and you had best not be passing that type of judgement on us...

You mistakenly thought Norm said that when I was the one who actually said it.

I simply meant that none of us lives as close to Christ as we might.

My appologies to Norm and John for confusing them and the post... and who said what.... It is a bit hard to keep them straight when much of what is said is parroted in a bit different form from the other, but it says the same thing....

Back in college, I remember the qualifications for one disciple... He was kicked and ran away from trouble even to the point of leaving town at night...He was known as a troublemaker, in fact, his character is such that he was known to have stirred up riots where the local police had to be called in to calm the people. He was known to have debated with leaders where he could...Is this type of person someone you would expect to be a disciple? And yet, the apostle Paul is such a person.

Would you even concider talking to someone who was naked all the time? Or was known to have been a bit emotional, crying at times? And yet, Ezekeal and Jerimiah were known to be such people...."Worldly" is a term that is just a bit too nebulous for me to grasp and lable someone with it...

[Dr. Shane]

Joshua's speech is so inspiring to me...

Quote:

Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. (Jos. 24:14, 15)

"gods which your fathers" What are these gods in our day? Secular TV, secular music, alcohol, worldly amusement, materialism???

"if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord" In other words, "if you are embarassed to be an Adventist"

I had to make a choice. Not MYwill but THY will. It isn't about what TV programs or music I like best. It is about what HE likes best. Now, I ask myself, do I want to be an Adventist? If I do, I should act like one. For years I didn't watch Adventist TV or read Adventist magazines. Praise God someone did so they were still there when I woke up out of my spiritual slumber and decided to get with the program.

[John317]

j317 Your 1st site for the Adventist Theological Society looks interesting. I browsed a document by Whidden on the Trinity as an expression of God's love. We were created for loving relationships, he says. The everexpanding universe is to be understood as God's everexpanding love.

The second site is by 'Our Firm Foundation', a group who caused the SDA church much misery. Just about everybody is to worldly according to them. Except them.

I know what you mean but I've really been blessed over the years reading that magazine. I've personally met Ron Spear and had good talks with him a number of times at a camp meeting in San Bernardino.

Quote:

Try these sites:

www.Spectrummagazine.org

Yes, I'm very familiar with this magazine. They print a lot of interesting things. They also sometimes host interesting meetings and forums near where I live.

Quote:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/index.htmorg

I can't get anything by clicking on this link. I'll try a different way to access it.

Quote:

I prefer Specturm since it is a little more liberal.

What is a worldly person? Should we try to be 'unworldly?'

Dictionary:

worldly |?w?rldl?| adjective ( -lier , -liest ) of or concerned with material values or ordinary life rather than a spiritual existence : his ambitions for worldly success. • (of a person) experienced and sophisticated.

Have you ever read Pilgrim's Progress? That book talks quite a lot about worldliness. For instance, it has a character who is a "worldly wise-man". Excellent book you might want to check out sometime.

Anyway, a worldy person, then, would be one whose primary concerns are with this world and with materialism rather than with Jesus and His righteousness. It is a matter of where our emphasis is, that is, of where our mind is, of what we love to talk about and whether spiritual things are most important to us.

[John317]

... He was known to have debated with leaders where he could...Is this type of person someone you would expect to be a disciple? And yet, the apostle Paul is such a person.

God is able to make anyone a disciple of Christ. It all depends on one's devotion and loyalty.

Quote:

Would you even concider talking to someone who was naked all the time?

Yes, if there was a good reason to and I believed it is what God wanted me to do.

Quote:

Or was known to have been a bit emotional, crying at times? And yet, Ezekeal and Jerimiah were known to be such people...."Worldly" is a term that is just a bit too nebulous for me to grasp and lable someone with it...

Not sure why you are unfamiliar with worldly or don't like the word, but it may be because of how you heard it used before. It's one right out of the Bible, however, and you'll find that Paul, the debator you mentioned earlier, used a word that the New American Standard Translation translates by the word "worldly". See 1 Tim. 4:7 and 2 Timothy 2:16.

"...have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women."

"...avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness."

See if Paul's use of the word fits the definition used by the Dictionary:

worldly |?w?rldl?| adjective ( -lier , -liest ) of or concerned with material values or ordinary life rather than a spiritual existence : his ambitions for worldly success. • (of a person) experienced and sophisticated.

[Neil D]

Quote:

God is able to make anyone a disciple of Christ. It all depends on one's devotion and loyalty.

Recently, someone posted on another thread bible characters who, while praised in Hebrews, were also shown to have poor reputations...

[partial list]

Joseph was abused

Moses had a stuttering problem

Gideon was afraid

Samson had long hair and was a womanizer

Rahab was a prostitute

Jeremiah and Timothy were too young

David had an affair and was a murderer

Elijah was suicidal

My point is- would you know a prophet today, based upon the above "worldly" and undisciplined attributes? I don't think you would.... In fact, you could be seeing a prophet or even talking to one without even knowing it anywhere today. Determining a prophet would be a bit difficult, me thinks.

Quote:

Not sure why you are unfamiliar with worldly or don't like the word, but it may be because of how you heard it used before. It's one right out of the Bible, however, and you'll find that Paul, the debator you mentioned earlier, used a word that the New American Standard Translation translates by the word "worldly". See 1 Tim. 4:7 and 2 Timothy 2:16.

We use it differently than the way Paul uses it. For example, we use it to set a standard [nebulous though it may be] for others. Paul used it as a way to discipline for and to ourselves. The word "worldly" is used to biblically describe what WE [personally] can do better. But we use it to condemn others...Paul used it to edify. There is a totally different useage and different culture that is expressed and is currently mixed with today's culture. I am trying to show the constrasts in how it is used between our Adventist culture today and the Paul's culture during biblical times.

2 Timothy 2:16 (The Message)

14-18Repeat these basic essentials over and over to God's people. Warn them before God against pious nitpicking, which chips away at the faith. It just wears everyone out.[color:#CC6600] Concentrate on doing your best for God, work you won't be ashamed of, laying out the truth plain and simple. Stay clear of pious talk that is only talk. Words are not mere words, you know. If they're not backed by a godly life, they accumulate as poison in the soul. Hymenaeus and Philetus are examples, throwing believers off stride and missing the truth by a mile by saying the resurrection is over and done with.

1 Timothy 4:7 (The Message)

6-10You've been raised on the Message of the faith and have followed sound teaching. Now pass on this counsel to the followers of Jesus there, and you'll be a good servant of Jesus. [color:#CC6600]Stay clear of silly stories that get dressed up as religion. Exercise daily in God—no spiritual flabbiness, please! Workouts in the gymnasium are useful, but a disciplined life in God is far more so, making you fit both today and forever. You can count on this. Take it to heart. This is why we've thrown ourselves into this venture so totally. We're banking on the living God, Savior of all men and women, especially believers.

You see, in each bible case that you have cited, "worldliness" is not the standard what we ourselves have drifted to, but rather refering contrast to us being "unprincipled".

Now, I don't want to get into which source is better, and while your source was good, I think this definition of worldly is a bit more complete... and I offer this as a more complete [but not necessarly better] definition-

from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -

world·ly

–adjective

1. of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

2. experienced; knowing; sophisticated: the benefits of his worldly wisdom.

3. devoted to, directed toward, or connected with the affairs, interests, or pleasures of this world.

4. of or pertaining to the people or laity; secular; neither ecclesiastical nor religious.

5. Obsolete. of, pertaining to, or existing on earth.

[John317]

Quote:

God is able to make anyone a disciple of Christ. It all depends on one's devotion and loyalty.

Recently, someone posted on another thread bible characters who, while praised in Hebrews, were also shown to have poor reputations...

[partial list]

Joseph was abused

Moses had a stuttering problem

Gideon was afraid

Samson had long hair and was a womanizer

Rahab was a prostitute

Jeremiah and Timothy were too young

David had an affair and was a murderer

Elijah was suicidal

My point is- would you know a prophet today, based upon the above "worldly" and undisciplined attributes? I don't think you would.... In fact, you could be seeing a prophet or even talking to one without even knowing it anywhere today. Determining a prophet would be a bit difficult, me thinks.

What are the identifying marks that the Bible gives us for knowing whether someone is a true prophet from God? What has been listed above are simply characteristics of many people in society: abuse, stuttering, fear, long hair, womanizing, prostitution, youth, immorality, murder, suicidal tendency, etc. None of these are what the Bible says to look for in a prophet, even though it is true that some prophets may have one or two of these things. But you can't identify a prophet by them. So, what I am asking you is, how do you know a true prophet from a false one?

[Dr. Shane]

If one cannot see issues with worldliness in their lives they have some serious spiritual issues to deal with.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

[Gerr]

This is for all.

Would anyone please define what is meant by "worldly" so that we can decide whether Lazarus is worldly or not?

Or is it defined by: not watching 3ABN, not reading any SDA periodical? If that is the definition, then he is!!!

Gerry