Are some of us too worldly?

[John317]

This is for all.

Would anyone please define what is meant by "worldly" so that we can decide whether Lazarus is worldly or not?

Or is it defined by: not watching 3ABN, not reading any SDA periodical? If that is the definition, then he is!!!

Gerry

It has nothing to do with not reading or not watching anything.

It is translated in the KJV by the word "profane" and in the NRSV by "godless." The underlying Greek word is Bebylous and occurs at 1 Tim 1:9; 4:7; 6:20; 2 Tim 2:16; and Hebrews 12:16. The latter text says that Esau was a worldly or profane or godless person. Ezekiel 44: 23 contrasts the holy and profane. The verb is used in Matthew 12:5 and Acts 24:6 to describe the pollution, or profanation, of that which is holy.

It is safe to say, then, that "worldly" is contrasted with "holy" or "sanctified." A sanctified person-- someone who is set apart as God's possession, or for God's use-- is not a worldly person. To say we are worldly is the same as saying we are not sanctified or holy. A worldly person, therefore, is one who is common, profane, polluted, defiled, and not godly.

[D. Allan]

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In fact, you could be seeing a prophet or even talking to one without even knowing it anywhere today. Determining a prophet would be a bit difficult, me thinks.

I've been thinking that one of the greatest prophets in the U.S. of A. would have to be Walt Whitman. Few people realize it, or read him. Anyone who reads good old Walt is not worldly!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

This is for all.

Would anyone please define what is meant by "worldly" so that we can decide whether Lazarus is worldly or not?

Or is it defined by: not watching 3ABN, not reading any SDA periodical? If that is the definition, then he is!!!

Gerry

It has nothing to do with not reading or not watching anything.

Soooooooo, I could be watching X-rated movies and still be holy & not profane?

Gerry

[John317]

Quote:

In fact, you could be seeing a prophet or even talking to one without even knowing it anywhere today. Determining a prophet would be a bit difficult, me thinks.

I've been thinking that one of the greatest prophets in the U.S. of A. would have to be Walt Whitman. Few people realize it, or read him. Anyone who reads good old Walt is not worldly!

Yes, I have been reading Walt Whitman since about 1965 and I enjoy him as a poet and as an American "prophet" of sorts, ie. the same as Dostoevsky was a Russian "prophet." But that is not at all what the Bible means when it says certain people, such as Jesus, Paul, Peter, Moses, Isaiah, etc., were prophets.

We speak of people such as Ginsberg and even of Karouac as being prophets of the Beat Generation. They were not inspired by God. They were inspired by their own human genius, often inspired by a desire for fame and money; other times inspired by drugs and wine and sexual immorality. Jesus and Moses and Paul were inspired as special messengers from God.

As Adventist Christians it's time we understand the differrence and not confuse them.

[Gerr]

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Now, I don't want to get into which source is better, and while your source was good, I think this definition of worldly is a bit more complete... and I offer this as a more complete [but not necessarly better] definition-

from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -

world·ly

–adjective

1. of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

3. devoted to, directed toward, or connected with the affairs, interests, or pleasures of this world.

By these definitions then, we are all worldly, since we are still all earthbound, deeply involved in "mundane" "connected with the affairs, or pleasures of this world," like earning a living, sex, eating, drinking, etc. etc.

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It has nothing to do with not reading or not watching anything. [/quote']

Soooooooo, I could be watching X-rated movies and still be holy & not profane?

Gerry

Read:

It is translated in the KJV by the word "profane" and in the NRSV by "godless." The underlying Greek word is Bebylous and occurs at 1 Tim 1:9; 4:7; 6:20; 2 Tim 2:16; and Hebrews 12:16. The latter text says that Esau was a worldly or profane or godless person. Ezekiel 44: 23 contrasts the holy and profane. The verb is used in Matthew 12:5 and Acts 24:6 to describe the pollution, or profanation, of that which is holy.

It is safe to say, then, that "worldly" is contrasted with "holy" or "sanctified." A sanctified person-- someone who is set apart as God's possession, or for God's use-- is not a worldly person. To say we are worldly is the same as saying we are not sanctified or holy. A worldly person, therefore, is one who is common, profane, polluted, defiled, and not godly.

[John317]

Quote:

Now, I don't want to get into which source is better, and while your source was good, I think this definition of worldly is a bit more complete... and I offer this as a more complete [but not necessarly better] definition-

from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -

world·ly

–adjective

1. of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

3. devoted to, directed toward, or connected with the affairs, interests, or pleasures of this world.

By these definitions then, we are all worldly, since we are still all earthbound, deeply involved in "mundane" "connected with the affairs, or pleasures of this world," like earning a living, sex, eating, drinking, etc. etc.

Gerry

Jesus was connected with this world in some of the ways you describe, yet he was not worldly. That is, He was totally devoted to God and sanctified by Him. Enoch lived in this world, also, but walked with God. Remember where Jesus spoke of His disciples as being in the world but not of the world. A worldly person is of the world. Jesus calls us out of the world, that is to be separate from it, in the sense of not participating in its sinfulness.

[Clio]

Ahhhhh... that's nice. Like you, I know that if I'm awakened in the middle of the night, it's best just to get up and start praying and when I've prayed what's needing prayed, then I get a wonderful peace in my heart and can go back to bed for the rest of the night.

How delightful to be able to sleep in and spend time after breakfast. My only available time is before anyone else is up, so the Spirit makes sure I'm awake and we don't get "rushed" out of our time together.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Now, I don't want to get into which source is better, and while your source was good, I think this definition of worldly is a bit more complete... and I offer this as a more complete [but not necessarly better] definition-

from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) -

world·ly

–adjective

1. of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

[snip]

3. devoted to, directed toward, or connected with the affairs, interests, or pleasures of this world.

By these definitions then, we are all worldly, since we are still all earthbound, deeply involved in "mundane" "connected with the affairs, or pleasures of this world," like earning a living, sex, eating, drinking, etc. etc.

Gerry

Jesus was connected with this world in some of the ways you describe, yet he was not worldly. That is, He was totally devoted to God and sanctified by Him. Enoch lived in this world, also, but walked with God.

[D. Allan]

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How delightful to be able to sleep in and spend time after breakfast. My only available time is before anyone else is up, so the Spirit makes sure I'm awake and we don't get "rushed" out of our time together.

Yes, it is great. I wouldn't miss my time with the Spirit in the morning. He takes away my anxiety and depression and gives me joy and peace. I've been retired since May, but before then I use to get up at four in order not to be rushed before being at work by seven.

Blessings

[D. Allan]

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"Worldly" is just too nebulous a term to define concisely..

You've nailed it, Neil. Poets need words like these...full of conotations.

"Unspiritual." Is that a more precise word?

[Dr. Shane]

The more worldly we are the more our happiness depends on the world. The more spiritual we are, the more our happiness depends on spiritual things.

I'll give an example. The worldly guy has a problem when he loses his premier cable channels. The spiritual guy has a problem when he loses his 3ABN because of satellite problems.

[D. Allan]

I know what you mean, Shane, but some might have different examples.

An unspiritual person desires to have his ego stroked. A spiritual person doesn't seek the approval of human beings. He basks in God's approval.

[Neil D]

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"Worldly" is just too nebulous a term to define concisely..

You've nailed it, Neil. Poets need words like these...full of conotations.

"Unspiritual." Is that a more precise word?

I am not sure....You would have to define other words as well... Spiritual, soul, spirit, even sin. And I am sure that there would be others as well as each of these play off of another word.

I am sure that "sin" would be "coming short of God's ideal", but what exactly does THAT mean? Sure, you could get a corporate meaning [ie not following the 10 Commandments fully], but each of us is unique. For some, the idea of living one's life in hermitage is ideal, for other's, it's a hell on earth. Does personal preferences factor into 'God's ideal'? I suspect that it does...

Therefore, what is "worldly" for one person may not be "worldly" for another...And to insist that your definition [that a generic 'your', btw ] of 'worldly' as THE standard that everyone should go by, is setting yourself up as a overbearing hypocrit.

[lazarus]

To me worldliness is not so much about specific activities as about priorities.

Using a previous example: A person may be upset at losing his CNN and MSNBC and not upset about 3ABN and not be worldly. He simply may not be able to connect with the approach of 3ABN. He may have use other Christian media outlets.

The question to ask is what are his or her priorities, what are his/her motivations?

Another person may not smoke, drink, go to parties, watch movies, etc and still be worldly. Jesus may not me first in their lives, he may be 7th or 8th.

The person who a citizen of God's Kingdom puts Him first and that will manifest itself in terms of fruit: Love joy peace etc.

From my perspective many of approaches and attitudes of those who speak for the religious right are worldly but yet they would not go to a bar or "sleep around". Their worldliness makes it easy for them to form close alliances with politicians.

Worldliness does cover a wide spectrum of activity but also covers those things I've metioned above and therefore its hard to decide whether someone else is worldly. Its better for a "man to examine himself".

Are some of us too worldly? Of course, but perhaps not in the ways that are so commonly mentioned.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus was connected with this world in some of the ways you describe, yet he was not worldly. That is, He was totally devoted to God and sanctified by Him. Enoch lived in this world, also, but walked with God.

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So why are we so quick to condemn those as "worldly", when the bible gives examples of those "totally devoted to God and sanctified by Him"?

Well, I don't think the Bible considers people "worldly" who are totally devoted to God and sactified by Him. The Bible calls such people "godly" and "sanctified," not "worldly." That is the contrast. One cannot be "worldly" in the Biblical sense and at the same time "totally devoted to God," or "sanctified." We don't use the term that way much any more and so people are no longer as familiar with that as they were. For instance, you will find that Ellen White used "worldly" a lot, and it was always used negatively, never positively. She always used it to describe people, or a way of thinking that was typical of people, who were not true Christians, or were not 100% dedicated to God's cause.

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Remember where Jesus spoke of His disciples as being in the world but not of the world. A worldly person is of the world. Jesus calls us out of the world, that is to be separate from it, in the sense of not participating in its sinfulness.

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But can you determine one who is worldly, yet is being saved from Sin? Because what you have established is that if a person is continueing to sin, he is therefore still worldly. I don't agree with that position as, I don't think, you can not tell a Christian from a non-Christian. Remember that partial list that I posted from another thread...where Noah was concidered a drunk, but he is listed as a hero of the bible? "Worldly" is just too nebulous a term to define concisely..

OK, I understand what you are saying here. The Bible is very clear that we ought to be able to see a big difference between a Christian and a non-Christian. (That is actually what the seal of God is all about in Revelation 7 and 14. Those who receive the seal of God have God's character and those who receive the mark of the beast have the character of Satan.) Otherwise, whether we like it or not, we are saying that God has no power and that the gospel makes no real difference in our lives.

Yes, Noah did get drunk. But there is nothing to indicate that he had a habit of getting drunk, or that he was a drunkard. In that case, he would have no chance of getting into God's kingdom, according to 1 Cor 6:9-10.

Please look carefully at 1 John 1:5 to 2:6, 1 John 3:1-10, and 1 John 5:3-5, 18-19.

[John317]

To me worldliness is not so much about specific activities as about priorities.

....Worldliness does cover a wide spectrum of activity but also covers those things I've metioned above and therefore its hard to decide whether someone else is worldly. Its better for a "man to examine himself".

Are some of us too worldly? Of course, but perhaps not in the ways that are so commonly mentioned.

I totally agree with you. Excellent!

[Neil D]

Quote:

Well, I don't think the Bible considers people "worldly" who are totally devoted to God and sactified by Him. The Bible calls such people "godly" and "sanctified," not "worldly." That is the contrast.

sigh...if you had followed our conversation, you would see that I am pointing out that the bible uses the word "worldly" in contrast to US who are ethically driven. The texts that YOU supplied showed that CHRISTIANS were to be the better person, a person with a high valued character, an ethical person as opposed to the human rabble who demand to be called a part of the human race. The contextual focus was on self edification, not corporate edification. Today, we use the term mostly to describe the corporate, and NOT as a way to better ourselves.... We use it to describe the unspiritual, the 'less than ideal person' who has not followed Christ. What the fallacy of that arguement is- there are a lot of quality people out there who are not Christian.

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One cannot be "worldly" in the Biblical sense and at the same time "totally devoted to God," or "sanctified." We don't use the term that way much any more and so people are no longer as familiar with that as they were.

I disagree.... A worldly person most likely does not have the knowledge of who Christ truely is...IOWs, they don't have the same knoweldge of Christ as I do, but yet, they are quality people. They are nice, they don't snarl at you, they engage in pleasant conversation, they don't yell at you for not believing in the 2300 days, they are tolerate of your beliefs, and they don't attempt to tell you that you are totally wrong in your belief system. They, like most adventists, are honest, loving, devoted, people. But they don't like the Christ as we have misrepresented/protrayed Him.

And we have the audacity to say that these type of people are "worldly"...Who are we to judge like that????

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For instance, you will find that Ellen White used "worldly" a lot, and it was always used negatively, never positively. She always used it to describe people, or a way of thinking that was typical of people, who were not true Christians, or were not 100% dedicated to God's cause.

And it was always in the context of attempting to better oneself, just like the bible did...Never in the context as YOU are describing.

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But can you determine one who is worldly, yet is being saved from Sin? Because what you have established is that if a person is continueing to sin, he is therefore still worldly. I don't agree with that position as, I don't think, you can not tell a Christian from a non-Christian. Remember that partial list that I posted from another thread...where Noah was concidered a drunk, but he is listed as a hero of the bible? "Worldly" is just too nebulous a term to define concisely..

OK, I understand what you are saying here. The Bible is very clear that we ought to be able to see a big difference between a Christian and a non-Christian. (That is actually what the seal of God is all about in Revelation 7 and 14. Those who receive the seal of God have God's character and those who receive the mark of the beast have the character of Satan.) Otherwise, whether we like it or not, we are saying that God has no power and that the gospel makes no real difference in our lives.

No, that is NOT what I am saying... I have maintained that the word "worldly" is too nebulous a word. I have no specifice reference point to ETHICALLY pass judgement on others [either individual or corporate] without damaging my reputation or character. This appears to me to be one of many hypocritical attitudes that pervades the SDA landscape. Of which, many of us do not seem to be able to see...Thus the words of Isaiah come to light again, "looking, they do not see." Instead, we pompously point to biblical texts to justify our righteous judgement. When in the real world, we are about as right, as a left-handed glove for a right-handed player in a baseball game. What a bunch of Pharasees we are!

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

How do you define this phrase "Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God"?

Right in whose eyes? .....

.....by the individual? by God? Whose standard are you using? It's not as easy as it looks....

[John317]

Quote:

Well, I don't think the Bible considers people "worldly" who are totally devoted to God and sactified by Him. The Bible calls such people "godly" and "sanctified," not "worldly." That is the contrast.

However, being a "quality person," as you put it, won't get anyone to a saved condition. Human qualities will never put anyone in right relationship with God. They're absolutely worthless as far as salvation is concerned. The Bible calls those kinds of qualities "filthy rags." Anyone outside a committed relationship with Christ is in an unsaved condition. There will be many "quality people" from the world's point of view who will be lost. The only way for anyone to be saved is through hearing the gospel and responding to it. That is the reason for the urgency in giving it. It is the only means God has provided for salvation.

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One cannot be "worldly" in the Biblical sense and at the same time "totally devoted to God," or "sanctified." We don't use the term that way much any more and so people are no longer as familiar with that as they were.

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I disagree.... A worldly person most likely does not have the knowledge of who Christ truely is...IOWs, they don't have the same knoweldge of Christ as I do, but yet, they are quality people. They are nice, they don't snarl at you, they engage in pleasant conversation, they don't yell at you for not believing in the 2300 days, they are tolerate of your beliefs, and they don't attempt to tell you that you are totally wrong in your belief system. They, like most adventists, are honest, loving, devoted, people. But they don't like the Christ as we have misrepresented/protrayed Him.

There are plenty of "worldly" people who are members of Christian churches, including the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Being a member of a Christian church and sitting in on sermons every Sunday or Sabbath is not what makes the difference between worldly and godly. Godly people imitate God; worldly people imitate the world. 1 John 5 says, "The whole world is in the power of the evil one." Intellectual knowledge of facts, or even of the gospel, is not the difference. The demons themselves have this kind of knowledge. The Pharisees and priests had a lot of intellectual knowledge of the law, but they killed Christ. They weren't 100% devoted to God and to doing His will. Many had the appearence of being "quality people," but in the final analysis that quality proved to be worthless because it was based on self and not on Christ.

The main point in understanding the difference is so that we will know if we are "worldly," not to make judgments about others. The first question on this thread having to do with being "worldly" is about whether "we are too worldly." I have just been trying to define what that means. I am not interested in using it to judge others as you say. I'm attempting to explain how various translations of the Bible use it and how Ellen White has used it.

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For instance, you will find that Ellen White used "worldly" a lot, and it was always used negatively, never positively. She always used it to describe people, or a way of thinking that was typical of people, who were not true Christians, or were not 100% dedicated to God's cause.

The "world" is often pictured in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White as that which is opposed to Christ. So "worldly" would be anything opposed to God and to the true gospel. For instance, this: "Satan is continually seeking to overcome the people of God by breaking down the barriers which separate them from the world" (GC 508). The Bible itself calls the devil "the god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4). On that same page, it is evident that Ellen White is using the word "worldly" to mean "ungodly," "unbelieving," "servants of Satan," and "unregenerate."

"Conformity to worldly customs converts the church to the world; it never converts the world to Christ" (GC 509).

(See also GC 376,379. Look up "worldiness" in the Comprehensive Index to the writings of Ellen White.)

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But can you determine one who is worldly, yet is being saved from Sin? Because what you have established is that if a person is continueing to sin, he is therefore still worldly. I don't agree with that position as, I don't think, you can not tell a Christian from a non-Christian. Remember that partial list that I posted from another thread...where Noah was concidered a drunk, but he is listed as a hero of the bible? "Worldly" is just too nebulous a term to define concisely..

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OK, I understand what you are saying here. The Bible is very clear that we ought to be able to see a big difference between a Christian and a non-Christian. (That is actually what the seal of God is all about in Revelation 7 and 14. Those who receive the seal of God have God's character and those who receive the mark of the beast have the character of Satan.) Otherwise, whether we like it or not, we are saying that God has no power and that the gospel makes no real difference in our lives.

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No, that is NOT what I am saying...

I sincerely apologize for misunderstanding you at this point, but I based my interpretation of your meaning on these two sentences of yours: "..what you have established is that if a person is continueing to sin, he is therefore still worldly. I don't agree with that position as, I don't think, you can not tell a Christian from a non-Christian." No doubt I should have read more carefully.

The Bible is very clear, especially in 1 John 3 and 5, that born-again believers cannot practice deliberate sin. Therefore if we find ourselves living in opposition to Christ, we need to examine ourselves, as the Bible instructs us, to see whether we are really of the faith or not. John wrote his letters in order to combat false teachings. Part of these false teachings was that people could rightly claim to be followers of Christ even while they lived in sin. The Holy Spirit, through John, is saying this is not possible.

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I have maintained that the word "worldly" is too nebulous a word. I have no specifice reference point to ETHICALLY pass judgement on others [either individual or corporate] without damaging my reputation or character. This appears to me to be one of many hypocritical attitudes that pervades the SDA landscape. Of which, many of us do not seem to be able to see...Thus the words of Isaiah come to light again, "looking, they do not see." Instead, we pompously point to biblical texts to justify our righteous judgement. When in the real world, we are about as right, as a left-handed glove for a right-handed player in a baseball game. What a bunch of Pharasees we are!

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

How do you define this phrase "Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God"?

Right in whose eyes? .....

.....by the individual? by God? Whose standard are you using? It's not as easy as it looks....

You, personally, of course, needn't use the word "worldly" if you prefer not to. There are other perfectly good terms one might use in its place to convey the same meaning.

But I believe the answer to your last few questions is in 1 John chapters 3 to 5, including this: "We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

It goes on to say Jesus has come to give us understanding of these things... And

if we lack understanding or wisdom, James says we should ask for it in faith from God and He will give it to us. "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1: 3,4).

[Dr. Shane]

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A worldly person most likely does not have the knowledge of who Christ truely is...

There are some that have a lot of knowledge and are quite worldly. Ancient Israel is a fine example. They knew all about the true God but refused to honor Him. At least the devils that believe also tremble. Many worldly, self-professed Christians go about thinking God loves them too much to destroy them.

[Neil D]

There are several things that need to be address, but I will not. I feel, for brevity's sake, that only a few things need to be pressed. For example-

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However, being a "quality person," as you put it, won't get anyone to a saved condition. Human qualities will never put anyone in right relationship with God. They're absolutely worthless as far as salvation is concerned.

This is erroneous. We are judged by our works...The only time your statement is true, is when we DEPEND upon our works to get into heaven. Big difference. And there are a lot of people out there who are doing good things simply because they see a need. And many of them are not christian in the legal sense of the word. They are not following Christ because thier understanding of Him is less than what they hold themselves to.

[color:#000000]1 Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Everyone is judged by his works...Everyone who is saved will be saved by the blood of the lamb. These are dependable statements.

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Godly people imitate God; worldly people imitate the world.

According to the partial list that I posted, you would not be able to tell the difference. Concider Jesus' reputation...

Luke 7:34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

The point here is that you can not tell in all circumstances that people are 'worldly'. To do so is judgemental and does nothing to help build relationships. In the long term, it also reflects upon the user of the word more than it does to convey dissatisfaction with various people.

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The Pharisees and priests had a lot of intellectual knowledge of the law, but they killed Christ. They weren't 100% devoted to God and to doing His will. Many had the appearence of being "quality people," but in the final analysis that quality proved to be worthless because it was based on self and not on Christ.

But how do you know quality people? At the time that the Pharisees and priests were condemning Christ, you could tell that they were NOT quality people. And you probably could not rebuke them/hold them accountable for their actions because of thier powerful positions they were in.

So today, how do you know that the person you are dealing with is a quality person?

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You, personally, of course, needn't use the word "worldly" if you prefer not to. There are other perfectly good terms one might use in its place to convey the same meaning.

That's probably true...if I wanted to...

Regarding I John3 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

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But I believe the answer to your last few questions is in 1 John chapters 3 to 5, including this: "We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

I know a lot of people who do what is right, but who can turn the air blue around them...They grew up that way. Granted, they 'know' that they are not to supposed to swear a blue streak, but they will everytime do what is right. Money for a good cause, they give what they can, donate time, strive to see good things come about. If a woman gives birth to an unwed child, they see that she has necessary items for the child and in some instances for her. They know that life is hard... They have a harder understanding of life. And they do the best they can...sometimes they can't do what needs to be done...and the air turns a bit bluer around them...Believe it or not, I tend to think that these people are God's children....Thier hearts are in the right place.

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It goes on to say Jesus has come to give us understanding of these things... And if we lack understanding or wisdom, James says we should ask for it in faith from God and He will give it to us. "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1: 3,4).

Granted, for those who know Jesus, we are held to a higher standard, and are to strive to become the partakers of the divine nature...But I fear that many of us have too soft a lives, and when the hardness comes, we will revert to another nature that is all to common among men....

[John317]

There are several things that need to be address, but I will not. I feel, for brevity's sake, that only a few things need to be pressed. For example-

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However, being a "quality person," as you put it, won't get anyone to a saved condition. Human qualities will never put anyone in right relationship with God. They're absolutely worthless as far as salvation is concerned.

I agree that our works do play a part in the judgment, but they only reveal whether we are truly Christ's disciple or not. Good works cannot merit anyone salvation.

Apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ, our good works are meaningless. This is a basic New Testament teaching. It is the main thrust of Galatians and Romans.

Our good works only reveal whether our faith is genuine, but apart from faith in Christ, our works are as nothing and cannot possibly save us but can only condemn us.

Re-read Romans 2:12-29. The context is one of condemnation, not of salvation. It is not saying that in the judgment some people will be saved on the basis of their good deeds. It is saying that all will see by their deeds that they are sinners. "...all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law..." (v. 12).

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The only time your statement is true, is when we DEPEND upon our works to get into heaven. Big difference. And there are a lot of people out there who are doing good things simply because they see a need. And many of them are not christian in the legal sense of the word. They are not following Christ because thier understanding of Him is less than what they hold themselves to.

The Bible is very clear that our works cannot be depended on to put us in right relationship with God. We are only put in right relationship with God, or justifed, by placing our faith in Jesus Christ and in His death and resurrection. God does not have two different ways of saving people, one for non-Christians and a different one for Christians. All are saved by God's grace through faith in the shed blood (that is, the life, death and resurrection) of Christ. No one can expect to be set right with the Father through his good works. That is an impossibility. (Study Galatians and Romans.)

"...the gospel is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith..." Rom 1:16.

"... the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe... it [the redemption which is in Christ Jesus] was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus" (Romans 2: 21-26).

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

"...if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified (forgiven and credited with the righteousness of Christ), and he confesses with his lips and so is saved" (Romans 10: 9,10).

"...these [signs done by Jesus] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31).

"He who has the Son has [eternal] life; he who has not the Son of God has not [eternal] life" (1 John 5: 12).

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

The truth of the gosepl is "that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have in believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justfied by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified" (Galatians 2:16).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is he gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2: 8,9).

"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" (Titus 3L4-7).

The reason it is urgent to take the gospel to people is that they will be lost if they don't hear the gospel and accept it. See Romans 10: 13-17; Mark 16:16. Many people will be lost because Christians did not do all they can to bring the gospel to them. It is really a life and death matter, and if we forget that fact, we lose the motive for carrying the message of God's love to the lost. Who are lost? Those who have never heard or don't know or obey the truth of the gospel.

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1 Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

If you read the verses just before and just after verse 17, it will be plain that verse 17 is addressed to Christians. First Peter is for Christians and about Christians. It calls upon us to be holy and then talks about our being ransomed by the precious blood of Christ. Christ's blood, and our confession of Christ as the Lamb that takes away our sins, is the only reason God is our Father. God is never called the "Father" of unbelievers. That is very important to remember. God is the creator of everything but He is only the Father of those who put their faith in His Son.

God does judge everyone impartially but it is impossible for anyone to be saved on the basis of their works. All your works will do, apart from a faith-based relationship with Christ, is condemn you. Our works demonstrate whether we are really in a saving relationship with Christ; that is, our works show whether we are loyal to Jesus Christ and His kingdom, but if we lack faith in Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, our works can only testify against us. No one will ever enter the Kingdom of heaven on the basis of works. A fundamental teaching of the Bible is that we are saved by God's grace through faith, not through works. As said before, that is the main emphasis of the books of Romans and Galatians.

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Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

This is describing the Great White Throne Judgment which deals only with the wicked, who are judged as deserving of death because they rejected God and the only way of salvation. Verse 15 says, "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." There is no indication whatsoever that anyone at the Great White Throne Judgment is judged to be worthy of eternal life. To be judged by what you have done means condemnation, not salvation. If I were judged by my deeds, I would be utterly lost. I have no hope whatever if I have to rely on what I have done during my life. I have been a great sinner, in competition with Saint Paul for the title of the world's greatest sinner. I freely admit it. God's diagnosis of me is absolutely correct. My confession of my sinfulness is the only way to be healed. Satan would not have to tell any lies to persuade the universe that if I have to depend on works to be saved, then I deserve death. Satan would be telling the truth. But thank God Jesus has made a different way possible. When I put my faith in Christ, He accepts my punishment for me and I am credited with Christ's perfect righteousness. That is what Romans 3:21-26 says. Read it in the New English Bible, which gives a most beautiful, clear translation of these verses.

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Titus 2:14...who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Yes, this is talking about Christians, people who have put their faith in Christ. Again, as I said before, the works demonstate our loyalty to Christ and our love for Him. The good deeds are the fruit of a faith-based relationship with Christ.

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Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Read Ephesians 2:8,9, which makes it plain that it is talking about saved people (v. 8), in a faith-based relationship with Christ. It is not advocating that people do good deeds apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ. The deeds only have merit in God's sight when they are the result of Christ in the life.

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Everyone is judged by his works...Everyone who is saved will be saved by the blood of the lamb. These are dependable statements.

It is true that everyone who is saved will be saved only because of the blood of the lamb. Yet it is also true that people will be saved who have demonstrated that they are worthy of being saved and of having a right to the tree of life. Rev. 22:14; 7:14; Luke 20:35.

Those who have made claim that they are disciples of Christ and have put their faith in Him are judged prior to the Great White Throne Judgment. We who claim to be followers of Christ are judged in the Investigative Judgment that is going on now, before the Second Coming. Our works do play an important part but not in order to earn salvation. Our works-- our life-- testify whether we have been loyal to Christ and to His kingdom. If our works tell a different story than our mouth-- in other words, if our lives testify against our claim to be Christians-- then we will be found wanting and be cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Bible is very clear that the only way into God's kingdom is by accepting Jesus Christ and being born anew, or from above. John 3: 3,5-- "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

[John317]

Please check out these uses of "worldly". Do they help us in any way have a clearer understanding about the meaning of "worldly"?

"The line of demarcation between worldlings and many professed Christians is almost indistinguishable. Many who once were earnest Adventists are conforming to the world-- to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. Instead of leading the world to render obedience to God's law, the church is uniting more and more closely with the world in transgression. Daily the church is becoming converted to the world." (8 T 118, 119)

"The religion of Jesus is endangered. It is being mingled with worldliness. Worldly policy is taking the place of the true piety and wisdom that comes from above, and God will remove His prospering hand from the conference. Shall the ark of the covenant be removed from the people? Shall idols be smuggled in? Shall false principles and false precepts be brought into the sanctuary? Shall antichrist be respected? Shall the true doctrines and principles given us by God, which have made us what we are, be ignored?...This is directly where the enemy, through blinded, unconsecrated men, is leading us." (Ms. 29, 1890)

"Formality, worldly wisdom, worldly caution, worldly policy, will appear to many to be the very power of God, but when accepted, it stands as an obstacle to prevent God's light in warnings, reproof, and counsel from coming to the world." (Ms. 16, 1890)

"The heavenly Teacher inquired: 'What stronger delusion can beguile the mind than the pretense that you are building on the right foundation and that God accepts your works, when in reality you are working out many things according to worldly policy and are sinning against Jehovah?..." (8 T 249)

"Worldly policy and the undeviating principles of righteousness do not blend into each other imperceptively, like the colors of the rainbow. Between the two a broad, clear line is drawn by the eternal God. The likeness of Christ stands out as distinct from that of Satan as midday in contrast with midnight. And only those who live the life of Christ are His co-workers. If one sin is cherished in the soul, or one wrong practice retained in the life, the whole being is contaminated. The man becomes an instrument of unrighteousness." DA 313

"There are many whose hearts are aching undeer the load of care because they seek to reach the world's standard. They have chosen its service, accepted its perplexities, adopted its customs. Thus their character is marred, and their life made a weariness. In order to gratify ambition and world desires, they wound the conscience, and bring upon themselves an additional burden of remorse. The continual worry is wearing out the life forces. Our Lord desires them to lay aside this yoke of bondage. He invites them to accept His yoke..." (DA 330)

Also see Great Controversy, pp. 376-390, 508.

[John317]

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There are several things that need to be address, but I will not. I feel, for brevity's sake, that only a few things need to be pressed. For example-

...The point here is that you can not tell in all circumstances that people are 'worldly'. To do so is judgemental and does nothing to help build relationships. In the long term, it also reflects upon the user of the word more than it does to convey dissatisfaction with various people.

I think you are right that we cannot always tell who is "worldly." I'm glad I don't have to tell that. In fact, I don't make it my business to know. I have enough trouble with knowing if and when I myself am being too worldly. However, sometimes it is obvious when people are "worldly," because there are certain kinds of behavior that indicate it. But we still have to be careful about judging people, because while their behavior may be wrong, often we do things even more wrong, and besides, we can't read the heart and the motives or know what their backgrounds are.

But let's take for example a situation where an Adventist pastor or church elder is using foul language or watching porn, etc. I think you would agree that these are things that would show this person is "worldly." In other words, they show the person has a problem in his relationship with Christ such that he needs to let Jesus take care of it by re-committing his life to Jesus and to His kingdom. It's the same with a husband who is being unfaithful to his wife-- he needs to renew his committment to his wife, obviously. In that case, we wouldn't call it "worldly,

we would call it unfaithfulness to one's wife. In a sense, then, we could say a person who is worldly is really unfaithful to God. There are many names we could call it, I suppose.

But again, the important thing is not to tell if others are worldly or unfaithful; the important thing is for us to know when we ourselves are being that way or in that poor spiritual condition. Being worldly is adopting attitudes or doing things that are contrary to what we know is the will of God. (Some things about God's will are obvious: for instance, God's will for everyone on earth is that we put our entire faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior and that we all allow God to write His Ten Commandment law of love on our hearts and in our minds.)

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The Pharisees and priests had a lot of intellectual knowledge of the law, but they killed Christ. They weren't 100% devoted to God and to doing His will. Many had the appearence of being "quality people," but in the final analysis that quality proved to be worthless because it was based on self and not on Christ.

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But how do you know quality people? At the time that the Pharisees and priests were condemning Christ, you could tell that they were NOT quality people. And you probably could not rebuke them/hold them accountable for their actions because of thier powerful positions they were in.

So today, how do you know that the person you are dealing with is a quality person?

Well, the world generally considers people "quality people" if they obey the laws and are good citizens, making positive contributions to the society. That is the way the world judges. Those "quality people" might also be Christians or they might not be. An atheist can be a quality person, of course, too, so being a quality person in the eyes of the world or of society is something totally different from being a "worldly" person in the sight of God or of the Christian church.

In the eyes of the world, it's true that those people who killed Christ were considered "quality people," but of course their behavior showed they were altogether a part of the world that is in rebellion against God and His Messiah and in league with Satan.

Again, however, I would emphasis that the main purpose in knowing what worldly means is so that I can know if I am worldly, not so I can judge if others are worldly. If someone asks me my opinion whether certain kinds of behaviors or attitudes are symptoms or indications of "worldliness," I could usually tell them, but I don't think God wants us to go around like petty spies looking to see who is or is not "worldly." There are times when it is the church's business to know this but generally it is best left up to God because only He knows the hearts and minds.

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You, personally, of course, needn't use the word "worldly" if you prefer not to. There are other perfectly good terms one might use in its place to convey the same meaning.

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That's probably true...if I wanted to...

Regarding I John3 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

But I believe the answer to your last few questions is in 1 John chapters 3 to 5, including this: "We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

I know a lot of people who do what is right, but who can turn the air blue around them...They grew up that way. Granted, they 'know' that they are not to supposed to swear a blue streak, but they will everytime do what is right. Money for a good cause, they give what they can, donate time, strive to see good things come about. If a woman gives birth to an unwed child, they see that she has necessary items for the child and in some instances for her. They know that life is hard... They have a harder understanding of life. And they do the best they can...sometimes they can't do what needs to be done...and the air turns a bit bluer around them...Believe it or not, I tend to think that these people are God's children....Thier hearts are in the right place.

Yes, they no doubt are good people from the human viewpoint. God loves them. It's for them that God came and lived as a man and died. All people are God's children in the sense you are using it here. It's just that the Bible never uses that language-- that is, of God as the Father of all humanity--because with God, the relationship to Him as Father is only open through faith in His Son.

We have to understand that people will be lost not because God does not love them but because they did not let God heal them of their sin problem. Every person who is destroyed after the Great White Throne Judgment will be someone whom God loves and for whom God sent His Son into the world to die in order that they might be saved. God will not be happy to see them destroyed. He will be crying over them. They won't be lost because God lacks love for them. It is not a question of whether God loves people. It is a question of whether people love and obey God.

God has always loved me, but only a short while back, if I had been killed, I know I would have been lost. How do I know? Because I was in rebellion against God and living in sin. It is different now. The difference is not in God but in those who have a decision to make about whether to let God lead their lives and whether to obey Him. I finally saw that the only way out of the mess I had dug for myself was to let God take over my life. So you see, I have absolutely no reason or right to be judging others worldliness. I have only been trying to understand how the Bible and Ellen White used the term. Like I say, there are many other terms that could be used in its place. It's the concept that's important to get straight in our minds.

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It goes on to say Jesus has come to give us understanding of these things... And if we lack understanding or wisdom, James says we should ask for it in faith from God and He will give it to us. "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1: 3,4).

Granted, for those who know Jesus, we are held to a higher standard, and are to strive to become the partakers of the divine nature...But I fear that many of us have too soft a lives, and when the hardness comes, we will revert to another nature that is all to common among men....

Agree there! That's why it's so important to live it every day now. Because some day, maybe sooner than later, it will be too late.

[Guest]

I know a lot of people who do what is right, but who can turn the air blue around them...They grew up that way. Granted, they 'know' that they are not to supposed to swear a blue streak, but they will everytime do what is right. Money for a good cause, they give what they can, donate time, strive to see good things come about. If a woman gives birth to an unwed child, they see that she has necessary items for the child and in some instances for her. They know that life is hard... They have a harder understanding of life. And they do the best they can...sometimes they can't do what needs to be done...and the air turns a bit bluer around them...Believe it or not, I tend to think that these people are God's children....Thier hearts are in the right place.

I think you are on the right track here Neil D. A clear way to demonstrate your point is to ask 152 Adventists, how to "keep" the Sabbath "holy;" and you are very sure to find out from atleast 151.5 of them, what "worldy" is.

I personally don't see "holy" as a specific doctrine; but, rather, a relationship, with a Purpose. The same goes for "worldy."