The Church of Rome denies Jesus came in the flesh

[hobie]

We see what the Bible says..

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The antichrist has to deny Jesus came in the flesh. Let’s look up the greek word “flesh” in the greek Lexicon and see what it can mean:

Strong’s Hebrew/Greek Concordance:

sarx: Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

Thayer Definition:
1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, “the animal nature” 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Now… what is our human nature? What are all human beings guilty of according to the bible? They are all guilty of SIN (Romans 3:23). Our human nature if our “want” to, or being “prone” to sin. The bible teaches that although Jesus never sinned, he became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). It teaches that Jesus came through the line of David (Matthew 1:1) yet David said, “Behold, I was shapen in INIQUITY; and in SIN did my mother conceive me.” -Psalm 51:5. This means that the whole line of David was a lineage individuals with a nature to sin, including Jesus. This is how Jesus, being God, could be tempted to sin (compare James 1:13 with Hebrews 4:15) because he became man, and being made into a man he had the same human nature as man… the ability to sin.

So, how does the Roman Catholic Church teach that Jesus did not come in the flesh (human nature)? Well when they teach that the Virgin Mary was sinless at her conception of the baby Jesus, they in essence teach that Jesus has not come in the flesh, because Jesus came through her lineage, and as David had a nature to sin, she also had a nature to sin. Read the following quote from a Roman Catechism:

491. “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, ‘full of grace’ through God, [Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of JESUS Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. -Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.

To say that Jesus came into the world this way, born of a virgin who was not of sinful “flesh” as we are all in our human nature, is to say he did not come in the “flesh” of sinful nature because he came through HER lineage. Think about it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie, If you want to know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, go to its published teachings.  Those are published in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My reference is the 904 page 2nd edition, published in Rome.  The following are quotations from that book:  numbers in bold (435) Are the numbers of the official teaching of the Church.

468   . . . He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity.

476  Since the word became flesh in assuming a true humanity, Christ's body was finite. . . . 

471  Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine, and the other human, not confused, but united in the person of God's son.

Hobie, I think you have been confused by the Catholic teaching of Original Sin.  Adam was created without it.  By his sin, the human race became contaminated by it. See 404, 405 & 406.   As I understand the Catholic teaching, Christ was born with the human nature of Adam, IOW without original sin.

 

Gustave, please correct any misstatement that I may have made.

[Gregory Matthews]

Seventh-day Adventists do not generally use the term "original sin."  Therefore, they may not generally understand what it means to one who is using it.  Yet, that term has a meaning that is important to understanding the nature of Christ.  SDAs deal with that issue without using the term.  Hobie, do you understand what is taught by SDAs on that subject?

[Gustave]

This is a fairly common argument made by Adventist groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, SDA's Christadelphians) as they abhor the Trinity Doctrine defined by the ancient Christian creeds they only have the means to slander those creeds claiming they are part of the anti-Christ system. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:  So, I assume that you do not have a problem with my comments on my understanding of Catholic teachings.

[Gustave]

15 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave:  So, I assume that you do not have a problem with my comments on my understanding of Catholic teachings.

No, no problem. 

[hobie]

On 9/21/2025 at 10:10 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Hobie, If you want to know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, go to its published teachings.  Those are published in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My reference is the 904 page 2nd edition, published in Rome.  The following are quotations from that book:  numbers in bold (435) Are the numbers of the official teaching of the Church.

468   . . . He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity.

476  Since the word became flesh in assuming a true humanity, Christ's body was finite. . . . 

471  Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine, and the other human, not confused, but united in the person of God's son.

Hobie, I think you have been confused by the Catholic teaching of Original Sin.  Adam was created without it.  By his sin, the human race became contaminated by it. See 404, 405 & 406.   As I understand the Catholic teaching, Christ was born with the human nature of Adam, IOW without original sin.

 

Gustave, please correct any misstatement that I may have made.

They put down things to cover themselves from what would show their true teachings, as they make Mary divine, a goddess, the Queen of Heaven, so Christ came out of her divinity not of flesh. Lets take a look..

We can start by looking at the Cathechism...and we see a person who died and according to the church has been elevated to assume the prerogatives of Christ:


"Daily, daily sing to Mary Sing, my soul, her praises due;

All her feasts, her actions worship, With the heart's devotion true.

She is mighty to deliver; Call her, trust her lovingly;

When the tempest rages round thee, She will calm the troubled sea.

Gifts of heaven she has given, Noble Lady, to our race;

She the Queen who decks her subject, With the light of God's own grace." (Baltimore Catechism No.1, 63)

Notice the references to the Queen of Heaven.

Here is RCC belief about Mary...from the Catholic Catechism

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501
I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
Wholly united with her Son . . .
964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503 965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
. . . also in her Assumption
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507 . . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517 IN BRIEF
973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15).

So is any of this in scripture, what does the Bible tell us about Mary?

Luke 1

²⁶ And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

²⁷ To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

²⁸ And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

²⁹ And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

³⁰ And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

³¹ And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

³² He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

³³ And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

³⁴ Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

³⁵ And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

³⁶ And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

³⁷ For with God nothing shall be impossible.

³⁸ And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

³⁹ And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

⁴⁰ And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

⁴¹ And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

⁴² And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

⁴³ And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

⁴⁴ For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

⁴⁵ And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

⁴⁶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

⁴⁷ And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

⁴⁸ For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

⁴⁹ For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

⁵⁰ And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

⁵¹ He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

⁵² He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

⁵³ He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

⁵⁴ He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

⁵⁵ As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

⁵⁶ And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

We know Mary was a good woman and highly favored among women, but where does it say she is given the power or title to be co-mediatrix and co-redemtrix since Christ is the only way to the Father and He alone is our Redeemer and Mediator.

[hobie]

Now some may try to deny or question whether Catholics really call her the Queen of Heaven, well lets look from this study on the Queen of Heaven..

"Among all the women who have ever lived, the mother of Jesus Christ is the most celebrated, the most venerated... Among Roman Catholics, the Madonna is recognized not only as the Mother of God, but also, according to modern Popes, as the Queen of the Universe, Queen of Heaven, Seat of Wisdom, and even the Spouse of the Holy Spirit." (Time Magazine, "Handmaid or Feminist?", December 30, 1991, p. 62-66).

Most Catholics would agree with this and have no issue to refer to the Virgin Mary as the Queen of Heaven, so is it really a reference to Mary. Let us look in Scripture.

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." [Jeremiah 7:17-18]

In this section of Jeremiah, God is telling Israel why He is about to physically destroy them as a nation. God is acting much like a Prosecutor who is informing the accused as to the charges against them. Notice that God is very angry that these people are preparing to worship the Queen of Heaven. He is saying that this worship of the 'Queen of Heaven' is "provoking" Him to anger!

"As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?"[Jeremiah 44:16-17]

Here, we see that the people are defiantly refusing to obey God, and are continuing to worship this 'Queen of Heaven'.

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows." [Jeremiah 44:25]

We see that God has finally gotten the message, that the people are going to worship this Queen of Heaven no matter what He says. Therefore, God tells them to go ahead with their rebellion, because He is going to totally destroy them. You can read the full account of this Divine Judgment in Jeremiah 44:1-20-29, and we encourage you to read it, for God never changes, and He would be just as enraged today about this idolatrous worship as He was then.

They hold her as the Queen of Heaven (Latin: Regina Caeli), is it is one of many Queen titles used of Mary, mother of Jesus. The title derived in part from the ancient Catholic teaching that Mary, at the end of her earthly life, was bodily and spiritually assumed into heaven, and that she is there honored as Queen.

You can search and you will find it everywhere..

The Crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth

Why is Mary called ‘Queen of Heaven’?

Why Is Mary Called Queen of Heaven? | Catholic Answers Q&A

[Gregory Matthews]

In your beginning posts in this thread, you stated that you were proposing that Roman Catholics teach that Christ did not come in the flesh.  My response was that Catholics do teach that Christ came in the flesh.

In your response to me, you generally ignored the issues of Christ coming in the flesh and introduced a new issue related to the role of Mary in Catholic teachings.  As I review your comments, they seem to differ in style from other comments You have made.  IOW, it looks to me like you have simply copied and pated material that you have read from other sources.  Such cannot be considered good scholarship.

I do not agree with Catholic teachings on the role of Mary in the life of a Christian.  That has not been the subject of this thread. 

In Catholic life, Priests teach the faith and Bishops determine the faith.  If you want to critique Catholic teachings, go to an authoritative source.   If you want to use a Catechism, do not pick some 20-page one developed to teach children.  Use the 904-page comprehensive one that I use.     

[hobie]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In your beginning posts in this thread, you stated that you were proposing that Roman Catholics teach that Christ did not come in the flesh.  My response was that Catholics do teach that Christ came in the flesh.

In your response to me, you generally ignored the issues of Christ coming in the flesh and introduced a new issue related to the role of Mary in Catholic teachings.  As I review your comments, they seem to differ in style from other comments You have made.  IOW, it looks to me like you have simply copied and pated material that you have read from other sources.  Such cannot be considered good scholarship.

I do not agree with Catholic teachings on the role of Mary in the life of a Christian.  That has not been the subject of this thread. 

In Catholic life, Priests teach the faith and Bishops determine the faith.  If you want to critique Catholic teachings, go to an authoritative source.   If you want to use a Catechism, do not pick some 20-page one developed to teach children.  Use the 904-page comprehensive one that I use.     

If Christ came from a goddess, then He is not from flesh, yet scripture makes no such inference or declaration of Mary's divinity, its Christ divinity in focus. We saw how He was manifested in Matthew and we see also in Luke.

Matthew 1:18-20
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

[Gregory Matthews]

The subject is not the role of Mary in salvation.   The issue is whether or not the Catholic Churches teaches that Christ had human flesh.  I showed directly from catholic doctrine that it teaches that Christ had both a human and a divine nature.  In 476 Catholic doctrine equates that human nature to human flesh. 

You have twisted your comments in a manner that distorts and misrepresents Catholic teaching.   IOW, your specific comments were false.  No, I am not calling you a liar.  You probably believe what you posted.  But, your belief does not make it true.

I expect others to be truthful and accurate in what they say about SDAs.  I expect the same from people who post here about other beliefs.   In the future, please post more accurately.

[Gregory Matthews]

The fundamental teaching of the SDA Chruch in regard to this subject is:

* Christ had both a human and a divine nature.

*  The life, death and ministry of Christ on Earth was sufficient to provide salvation to every human, ever born on Earth, who desired to participate in that salvation.  

Within the above, there may be some differences in SDA  belief.  But, they are united on what I have stated here.

[hobie]

15 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The subject is not the role of Mary in salvation.   The issue is whether or not the Catholic Churches teaches that Christ had human flesh.  I showed directly from catholic doctrine that it teaches that Christ had both a human and a divine nature.  In 476 Catholic doctrine equates that human nature to human flesh. 

You have twisted your comments in a manner that distorts and misrepresents Catholic teaching.   IOW, your specific comments were false.  No, I am not calling you a liar.  You probably believe what you posted.  But, your belief does not make it true.

I expect others to be truthful and accurate in what they say about SDAs.  I expect the same from people who post here about other beliefs.   In the future, please post more accurately.

Mary, as a goddess, negates the human flesh coming from her. That is what it comes down to..

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, hobie said:

Mary, as a goddess, negates the human flesh coming from her. That is what it comes down to..

The Church does not teach "Mary is a goddess". 

This is ironic hobie, coming from someone who categorically rejects the Biblical definition of the Gospel. 

"I brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand ; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" 1st Corinthians 15, 1

What Paul just said there is the same thing the Old Testament said about the Christ and the same thing Christ said about Himself (that He was God Himself and nothing would stop Him) - least of all God submitting to sin! 

You misrepresent Catholic teaching while glossing over / outright denying bedrock 101 level Christian Doctrine. No amount of your false charges will deter me from correcting you hobie. Have faith and be of good cheer - we'll get you there.

 

[hobie]

On 9/24/2025 at 9:57 AM, Gustave said:

The Church does not teach "Mary is a goddess". 

This is ironic hobie, coming from someone who categorically rejects the Biblical definition of the Gospel. 

"I brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand ; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" 1st Corinthians 15, 1

What Paul just said there is the same thing the Old Testament said about the Christ and the same thing Christ said about Himself (that He was God Himself and nothing would stop Him) - least of all God submitting to sin! 

You misrepresent Catholic teaching while glossing over / outright denying bedrock 101 level Christian Doctrine. No amount of your false charges will deter me from correcting you hobie. Have faith and be of good cheer - we'll get you there.

 

You've never been to a Roman Catholic Cathedral with Latins would be my guess, they certainly see her as a deity. Now as for the history of the idols of Rome, they are all pagan gods or goddess, if one looks. 

The Virgin Mary you worship is not the historical Virgin Mary.
The Catholic Church are worshipping the Queen of Heaven, a pagan goddess.

431 A.D. - The Catholic Church introduces the worship of Mary. 104
431 A.D. - Council at Ephesus affirmed that Mary was the bearer of Jesus as “man and God”. 104
1854 - Roman Catholic Church introduce the “Immaculate conception of Mary”. 104
1904 - Roman Catholic Church “crowned” Mary. 105
1950 - Roman Catholic Church introduces the Assumption of Mary. 104'.. The Queen of Heaven..

Here are a few of the pagan gods and how they were renamed to let their worship continue:

"Demeter is a goddess of many festivals but most important, the Thesmophoria, which fell in late October. She became St. Demetrios, a masculine warrior saint, whose fd. is 10/26.

Aphrodite became St. Aphrodite, of which there are several, all with saints' tales that tell how she became a "repentant harlot."

Nike was picked up as Saint Nicholas, who was extremely popular wherever shipping was important. He is the patron saint of Russian, Holland and Germany, all on the north sea coast.

The Roman god Mars was originally a god who guarded wheat fields. He became St. Martin (esp. St. Martin-in-the-fields). Although March is the month associated with Mars (it was the beginning of the military campaigning season in Roman times), the major festival for him in Christian times now usually falls in February, called Mardi Gras "Great Mars."

The Roman god Quirinus became St. Cyrinus, of which there are various "equestrian warrior saints" such as St. Cyr in France, and St. Quirina, mother of St. Lawrence. The element quir- means (or was understood to mean) `horse.' These saints were very popular and widely worshiped in the Middle-Ages, in France, Holland and also eastern Christian countries.

The Roman gods known as the Lares became St. Lawrence, esp. St. Lawrence beyond-the-wall. The Lares were field gods who protected the grain growing in the fields. In Italian, he became St. Lorenzo beyond the Walls, meaning outside of the walls of the city, for which there is still a church in Rome, with many "daughter" churches which developed from it.

The Roman goddess Venus became St. Venera (with a feminized ending to her name since -us looks like a masculine ending in Latin). She had a major church in Rome in early Christian times, but that didn't last long.

The Roman gods known as the Gemini, who were protectors of sailors in Roman pagan times, became the Sanctos Geminos, with a number of forms in the various Christian religions. Santiago de Compostela, (St. James in English) became the protector of pilgrims during the Middle Ages. Forms of St. James all seem to be christianized from various forms of the Proto-Indo-European god *Yama. This god was repeatedly christianized in most of the Indo-European language groups.

The ancient Romans worshiped gods and goddesses involved with every aspect of life. Jupiter, the chief of the gods, was the god of rain and storms, while his wife, Juno, was the goddess of womanhood. Minerva was the goddess of handicrafts and wisdom; Venus, of sexual love and birth; Vesta, of the hearth and sacred fires; Ceres, of farming and harvests.

The Greeks considered Mercury, whom they called Hermes, to be the messenger of the gods, but the Romans worshiped him as the god of trade, with businesspeople celebrating his feast day to increase profits. And there were other popular deities: Mars, god of war; Castor and Pollux, gods of sea travelers; Cronos, the guardian of time; and of course Cupid, god of love, whose magic arrows caused both human beings and immortals to fall in love.

While the Romans would call generically on "the gods," each major deity still had its own cult, and worshippers would pray and conduct religious ceremonies to a specific god or goddess to implore help."... St. Valentine, Cupid and Jesus Christ

[hobie]

We know the history of how it came about...

Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

Constantine found that, with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse, not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious beliefs to embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:

(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.

(2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries AD. It was very popular among the Romans, especially among Roman soldiers, and was possibly the religion of several Roman emperors. While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the Roman Empire, it was the de facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding Roman emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity. One of the key features of Mithraism was a sacrificial meal, which involved eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the god of Mithraism, was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed, granted salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (this is known as theophagy, the eating of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore. Church leaders after Constantine found an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in the concept of the Lord’s Supper/Christian communion. Even before Constantine, some early Christians had begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass/Eucharist, complete.

(3) Most Roman emperors (and citizens) were henotheists. A henotheist is one who believes in the existence of many gods, but focuses primarily on one particular god or considers one particular god supreme over the other gods. For example, the Roman god Jupiter was supreme over the Roman pantheon of gods. Roman sailors were often worshippers of Neptune, the god of the oceans. When the Catholic Church absorbed Roman paganism, it simply replaced the pantheon of gods with the saints. Just as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a god of peace, a god of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these, and many other categories. Just as many Roman cities had a god specific to the city, so the Catholic Church provided “patron saints” for the cities.

(4) The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman Empire, and with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets of life. Constantine and his successors gave their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme ruler of the church. Of course, it is best for the unity of the Roman Empire that the government and state religion be centralized. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman Empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors—Pontifex Maximus.

Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in demonstrating the origin of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of complicated theology and “church tradition.” Recognizing that many of its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.

This study makes even clearer what was done..

"2. Mariology The position Mary occupies in the theology of the Roman Catholic church is the result of centuries of development. The first recognition of Mary as the “Mother of God” was granted her at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431. That council qualified the expression by declaring that Mary was the “mother of God according to the manhood” of Jesus. While the phrase was considered inappropriate when applied to any mortal, yet it was intended to refer only to the humanity of Christ. This is not the position of the Roman church today. Today Catholicism teaches:

   The principal mysteries concerning the motherhood of God, the immaculate conception, sinlessness, and virginity are   gifts made to Mary in view of her vocation to be Mother of God. Her motherhood of the Word of God is not just an   external bringing about of Christ’s bodily existence. Mary was mother of the Redeemer in the full sense of being his   assistant in the work of redemption … The mystery which completes Mary’s cooperation in the work of Christ is her role   as Mediatrix of Grace.… All of the graces which God accords us on account of Christ’s merits come to us directly or   indirectly through Mary.12

The doctrines concerning Mary are a recent development. One of the early statements concerning Mary was Pope Siricius’s letter to the bishop of Thessalonica in AD 392. That letter declared Mary’s perpetual virginity.13 It was not until the Council of Trent in 1547 that the Roman Church announced the sinlessness of Mary, enabling her to avoid venial sins.14 The most significant doctrines concerning Mary have been promulgated in little more than the past one hundred years. In 1854 Pope Pius IX declared Mary to be free of any sin throughout her entire life. He states: “We, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Most Blessed Virgin Mary from the first moment of her conception was, by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Christ Jesus the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin, is revealed by God.”15

Mary’s role as the mediatrix of grace and the co-redemptrix of Christ is prominent in recent Catholic theology. Pope Leo XIII declares in his 1891 Encyclical Octobri Mense: “The eternal Son of God, when he wished to take the nature of man for the redemption and glorification of mankind, … did not do so without first having the absolutely free consent of his chosen mother who in a sense personified the whole human race, … so that, just as no one can attain to the supreme Father except through the Son, to a certain extent, no one can attain to the Son except through the Mother.”16 The encyclical further declares that since people tremble before the justice of God, an advocate and protector is needed where none will be refused. “Mary is such a one, Mary worthy of all praise; she is powerful, mother of the all-powerful God; … So God gave her to us.… We should place ourselves under her protection and loyalty, together with our plans and our deeds, our purity and our penance, our sorrows and joys and pleas and wishes. All that is ours we should entrust to her …”17

In 1892 Pope Leo XIII’s Encyclical Magnae Dei Matris declared adherents of the Catholic faith to pray to Mary and receive help from her treasury of grace. He declares her exalted position: “she stands high above all the orders of angels and men and she alone is next to Christ.”18 In 1904 Pope Pius X declared that all who are joined to Christ “came from Mary’s womb in the manner of a Body joined to its Head. So we may call ourselves in a spiritual and mystical way children of Mary, and she is the Mother of us all.”19 He further declares that because Mary shared the sufferings of Christ, God “promoted her to the high dignity of restorer of the lost world and thus the dispenser of all the goods which Jesus won for us by his death and at the price of his blood.”20 Thus in the eyes of the Catholic church Mary has become “the most powerful mediatrix and conciliator between the whole world and her only-begotten Son … (and) the chief minister in the distribution of graces.”21

Pope Pius XII declared in 1943 in his Encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi that Mary was immune from all sin; she offered her son on Golgotha to the Father; she obtained the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost; she now provides motherly care for the church; and she now reigns in heaven with Christ.22 In 1950 Pope Pius XII declared that Mary was preserved from corruption of the body in death; “she conquered death and was raised body and soul to the glory of heaven, where as Queen she shines refulgent at the right hand of her Son … We proclaim and define it to be a dogma revealed by God that the immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever Virgin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven.”23 Vatican II reaffirmed Mary’s role in Catholic theology as previously taught.24 25

Interestingly, most Roman Catholic beliefs and practices regarding Mary are completely absent from the Bible. Where did those beliefs come from? The Roman Catholic view of Mary has far more in common with the Isis mother-goddess religion of Egypt than it does with anything taught in the New Testament. Surprisingly, the first hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship. Within Roman Catholicism the Mother and the Child are the grand objects of worship. Exactly so, in this latter respect, also was it in ancient Babylon. The Babylonians, in their popular religion, supremely worshipped a Goddess Mother and a Son, who was represented in pictures and in images as an infant or child in his mother's arms. From Babylon, this worship of the Mother and the Child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, the Mother and the Child were worshipped under the names of Isis and Osiris.26 In India, even to this day, as Isi and Iswara;27 in Asia, as Cybele and Deoius; in Pagan Rome, as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter, the boy; in Greece, as Ceres, the Great Mother, with the babe at her breast, or as Irene, the goddess of Peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms; and even in Thibet, in China, and Japan, the Jesuit missionaries were  astonished to find the counterpart of Madonna28 and her child as devoutly worshipped as in Papal Rome itself.29

What-is-the-origin-of-the-Roman-Catholic-Church-Wright.pdf

[Gustave]

hobie, 

It's difficult to take you seriously when you believe God could have eternally ceased to exist on account of personal sin (or whatever else you may think of). My advice for you is that you should spend some time in historical books and gain a command of the material and come at discussions from that perspective instead of copy-N-paste apologetics from Jack Chick comic books. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie, you tell us that Roman Catholics worship Mary.  Perhaps you might find some member w ho does that.  But, that is not Catholic teaching.  Catholics venerate Mary, which is quite different from worshiping her. In actual fact, Gustave could tell us that SDAs venerate Ellen With. What would you think of that?

Club Adventist exists as a place where people can engage in civil discussions of point of difference.  You are clearly pushing the boundaries in you claims as to what Catholics are taught.  But, I will say that if I were to threaten to remove such Gustave would likely ask me to allow you to continue posting.   Sometimes, debates are won simply by allowing foolishness to remain.  I am not saying that you are a fool.  I simply am saying that your comments may not be having the effect that you desire.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie:  Gustave might prefer to say that the Catholic church offers "devotion" to Mary, rather than veneration.  I do not know.  In any way, the following is Catholic teaching:

" 971 , , , The Churches's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship. . . .This very special devotion differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, . . .. "  

So whether you call it "adoration" or "veneration," the above makes it clear that what is given to Mary is less than the worship given to Trinity.

 

[Gustave]

I'm fine with hobie posting Jack Chick material. When I can get some time I'll respond.

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie, in an earlier post you cite Catholic teaching 104 as being a teaching that Mary is the Queen of Heaven.  That statement is false. Teaching 104 applies to Sacred Scripture, or, as we would likely say, the Bible.  It does not mention Mary in any sense.

[phkrause]

On 9/26/2025 at 5:04 PM, Gustave said:

I'm fine with hobie posting Jack Chick material. When I can get some time I'll respond.

Who's Jack Chick?

[Gustave]

Jack Chick was a somewhat famous "comic book" creator - instead of super-hero's his comics would be diatribes against theological positions he disagreed with. A friend of mine in Junior High was helping his Dad (who was an electrician) wire up a Baptist Church and in the entry of the church they had a big comic book stand that had all Jack Chick's comics - one was about Dungeons and Dragons. Most were about Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, etc. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Back in the early days of my life as an Army Chaplain,  there were people who liked to place Chick comics in the  chapel literature  rack, for distribution to others.  Honest people can differ on Biblical doctrines.  Gustave and I differ in a number of areas.  The Chick comics went well beyond what I considered to be honest discussions.  Rather, I considered them to be slanderous un-proven allegations against Catholics, as the majority of comics placed in the literature racks were against Catholics.  So, in any chapel where I had the authority to do so, those comics were removed.  With the passage of time a directive came out from an office in the Pentagon that prohibited the public display pf Chick comics in the Army chapels

NOTE: .My references are to very old Chick publications.  I have no knowledge of current Chick publications, if any and no knowledge as to their current display in military chapels.