Woody Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I apologize to you John 317 ... I did not mean that ANY thing you have said was disturbing to me. The only thing that disturbs me is the Gays pushing and advertising their sexual preference. I don't go to parades advertising and pushing MY sexual preference and I don't appreciate others pushing PUBLICALLY what they do in the privacy of their bedroom. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Bevin ... Regarding "The courts have correctly ruled that Intelligent Design, as currently formulated, is not science. It does not do the above steps." ................................................................ I believe that Intelligent Design is as much science as Evolution. The "facts" of science change over and over again over the years . So if you believed the "facts" of science of a few years ago ... they would now be thought of as fantasy. Their "facts" continue to change. And at least the creation science does not keep changing like the "facts" of "science". Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 Well, I don't know if there are any racial groups that have their own set of exclusive problems. However if someone where to say that listening to classical music was a problem with my racial group, rather than denying that it was, I would ask in what way is it a problem...If someone listening to classical music neglects family or Bible study because of the classical music, then yes, I would agree that is a problem. If it is commonplace within a specific racial group, then it would be a racial issue for that group. I fail to see how listening to classical music per se could be a problem. Would someone care to explain that one? Are they talking about the operas such as those by Richard Wagner or like Madam Butterfly? Also, is a distinction made between Classical and Baroque and Romantic or is it all lumped together as "Classical"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: I fail to see how listening to classical music per se could be a problem. Would someone care to explain that one? Any obsessive-compulsive behavior is a problem as has the potential to interupt one's family life, work habits and religious devotion. If listening to classical music became an obsessive-compulsive behavior, like listening to other types of music have for some people, than it is a problem for that person. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 I apologize to you John 317... It's OK. There was nothing wrong with what you said. It's just that I misunderstood. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: I believe that Intelligent Design is as much science as Evolution. Some scientists believe Intelligent Design is its own science in the same aspect as forensics, archaeology or linguistics is. However there is far from a consensus in that area so it is best to teach Intelligent Design as an elective in a philosophy of science curriculum. This is an area where progress is being made, slow as it may be. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: I believe that secular society should be totally accepting of gays but that the Christian church has an obligation to tell the truth about its being sinful to practice homosexuality. The problem with secualr society is that they tell gays they cannot change. They tell gays they must live out the gay lifestyle. Contrast that to how we treat alcoholics. Alcoholics are told their behavior is not acceptable and mental health provides have treatment centers for them. Quote: the church should be totally accepting of gay people in the sense of loving them as individuals who need salvation the same as everyone else, and they should always be made to feel welcome to worship with other Christians. I agree and for the most part that is how the church treats alcoholics. So it seems the church is at one extreame and secular society is at the other extreame. Both, for the most part, treat alcoholics as they should be treated. In my opinion, gays should be treated the same way. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: I believe that Intelligent Design is as much science as Evolution. The "facts" of science change over and over again over the years . So if you believed the "facts" of science of a few years ago ... they would now be thought of as fantasy. Their "facts" continue to change. And at least the creation science does not keep changing like the "facts" of "science". Like I said, the failure to understand what science is shows a major failure of the education system Science is NOT facts. Science is a process for producing theories that make accurate predictions. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: I fail to see how listening to classical music per se could be a problem. Would someone care to explain that one? Any obsessive-compulsive behavior is a problem as has the potential to interupt one's family life, work habits and religious devotion. If listening to classical music became an obsessive-compulsive behavior, like listening to other types of music have for some people, than it is a problem for that person. OK, I can see that aspect. In other words, it's not the fact that it's classical music but the fact that they are letting it control their lives instead of their controlling it. Like you say, that can happen with any type of music. I assume, then, that even gospel humns could theoretically result in the same kind of problems. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: I believe that secular society should be totally accepting of gays but that the Christian church has an obligation to tell the truth about its being sinful to practice homosexuality. The problem with secualr society is that they tell gays they cannot change. They tell gays they must live out the gay lifestyle. Contrast that to how we treat alcoholics. Alcoholics are told their behavior is not acceptable and mental health provides have treatment centers for them. Quote: the church should be totally accepting of gay people in the sense of loving them as individuals who need salvation the same as everyone else, and they should always be made to feel welcome to worship with other Christians. I agree and for the most part that is how the church treats alcoholics. So it seems the church is at one extreame and secular society is at the other extreame. Both, for the most part, treat alcoholics as they should be treated. In my opinion, gays should be treated the same way. As far as being welcomed into the church to worship and fellowship, I think the church needs to do the same with everyone, and just be glad they have chosen to come to church, instead of lecturing them or telling them they need to change something. I've heard horror stories of people entering churches to worship and being turned away or given a lecture because they might have on earrings or not be dressed right, etc. I think having a friend at church that you know really wants to see you and will be there to welcome you is one of the most powerful motives people have for going to church. Probably most "white churches" could do a better job at being more spontaneous, genuinely welcoming and warm, and less formal. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 Thank you John 317 . What you have said is so true. My wife has gays in her family. They are such loving and fun people to be with. We love them. They have had it rough because of POOR treatment in the SDA church. But, they love the Lord. They just can't love the Lord in the church. What a shame. WE need to love ALL sinners and like you say ... Hate ALL sin. Thank you for what you posted. I love the SDA church and I can honestly say I love all the people too. I know that it is God's Spirit in me that makes me feel that way. Just wondering if the people you are talking about want to change. It sounds like they received poor treatment in the church from private individuals rather than as a result of official decisions on the part of the church. Is that right? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: It sounds like they received poor treatment in the church from private individuals rather than as a result of official decisions on the part of the church. Is that right? The SDA church has issued official statements opposing gay marriage - for instance the Northern New England Conference released a press statement when Vermont was deciding on whether or not to allow civil unions. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: Ignoring the debatable issues of church attendance and homosexuality, the rest of the problems can all be described as "poor choices". The solution that many in the secular world are adopting towards these is a mixture of education and carrot and stick. When I see Christian churches denigrating all three, it makes me realize just how glad I am that my money is not funding these churches. Pre-marital sex. The best known solutions involve teaching kids what the actual benefits and risks are, acknowledging that teenagers have strong sexual drives, and recognizing that masturbation is a reasonable and guilt-free solution to those drives. Churches usually go the ignorance-and-guilt route. Abortions. Birth-control is far cheaper and better. That is why the Catholic Church opposes it. That is why Protestant Christians are opposed to it being taught in schools. Secular entertainment. Lets admit that some is good and some is bad. Same is true of Christian books and movies and songs. Poor diet. Why is the SDA church still wasting its time on the irrelevant noise about vegian v vegetarian and coffee, rather than teaching a modern science-based pragmatic diet? Drunk driving. Where is the strong Christian push for European-level drunk-driving penalties? Domestic violence. Of course that never happens in christian homes, right... which is why the Christian churches teach male-dominance. Alcoholism. Ditto - which is why many use alcoholic beverages for communion. Lastly, I can not drop this topic without slamming the USA fundamentalist Christian churches for their anti-science stance. No wonder Europeans are rejecting organised Christianity - it is a disgrace to its founder. Quote: But more is involved here than evolution. I watch Christian churches denigrate medical research, teach stupid diet nonsense, fail to do the most rudimentary planning or research, and spend all their time on reiterating cliches without support and directly contradicted by actual evidence. Quote: We would be back in the dark ages having ignorant priests telling us what to do. Thank you...thank you...thank you...at last, someone who speaks to what frustrates and disappoints me about the religious "system". Maybe it IS possible to remain a member of the church and not have to remove one's brain. Oops, I forgot...Bevin is not a member of the official church any more. aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Jesus loved the sinner and hated the sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner. Do not judge the sinner but judge the sin. We do have to make judgments and stand up for what we believe to be sin. And gay marriage in my view is sin. But I love the gay person. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 To Shane's list, I would add adultery divorce lack of compassion towards the less fortunate planning and resource allocation by emotion rather than by reason /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 The classical music example was actually something I used to show up a logical fallacy in some of Shane's early comments in this thread. I see nothing at all wrong with classical music, and I specifically chose it for that reason. Shane's argument (condensed) was: Here are the problems in the white community --> You argue that (some of) these are not really problems --> that's an example of 'white denial' I was trying to show that that is logically false, by feeding in an example (classical music) of something that is genuinely not a problem. Through this logic chain, you'll still end up being accused of 'white denial', even if you're simply stating that something that has been identified as a problem is not, in your opinion, a problem. In other words, there's no place from which to challenge the suggested list of problems without simply having your arguments dismissed as 'denial'. I think the thread has gone in a fairly healthy and interesting direction, and hope it will continue. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 There's a few items that I think have been forgotten. Its seems that the white community has a strong leaning towards homosexuality. The white gay community is very forceful in its agenda. Its also been very sucessful. Why does the white community produce so many gay men. In the hospital where I worked as a chaplain we had an observtion we made. If its a shooting its a black guy, if its a stabbing its Spanish, if its a suicide its a white guy. Why traditionally have white people killed themselves more often than the rest of the population. The suicide rate for whites between 7-17 is nearly twice that of black Asian youth. 78% of serial killers are white. Why are white men so intimidated by black men? Its seems like every white man I meet is afraid of a black man. What's with the shooting 4/5 people at work, school? Columbine etc. Rate of child abuse by race: White = 51% African American = 25% Hispanic = 15% American Indian/Alaska Natives = 2% Asian/Pacific Islanders = 1% Why are white victims of sexual abuse generally younger? There are proportionally more whites arrested for incest offences is higher than that of than blacks/asians. Here's a silly one....! What about the two World Wars we've had? I think these were all started by white people. Last and not least. Why is there a penchant among some whites towards white supremacy? Neo-Nazi's, KKK and others. Why is there this need among white in America and across Europe to present themselves as superior. I'm surprised that this last one has not been raised at all! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 I think the thread has gone in a fairly healthy and interesting direction, and hope it will continue. Sorry, I may have just made an unhealthy turn. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Laz, I don't know the stats but I think the majority of pedophiles are white. Online child sex stalkers, white. Very, very sick Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: Sorry, I may have just made an unhealthy turn. Healthy or not, truth is truth. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Quote: What about the two World Wars we've had? I think these were all started by white people 3 world wars! Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 The wars one I think is a matter of opportunity - it was white Europeans who had the population and technology and society to wage war on such a scale... it's not as though Africa is a haven of peace and security... I've seen child abuse statistics quite different from those ones, too: I think the problem with those numbers are that they are 'percentage of total number of cases in America', and don't take into account the population proportions of the various races. Not denial, I hope, but a critical look. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 1, 2007 Members Share Posted January 1, 2007 I do not think Imperial Japan considered itself to be *white*... but I could be wrong. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 1, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 1, 2007 Maybe this is a problem.... Just a few years ago, a public opinion poll indicated that only 6 percent of whites in the U.S. believed racism was still a "very serious" problem facing African Americans. While larger percentages believed racism to be somewhat of a problem, only this anemic share of the white community saw it as an issue of great importance. When you consider that twice that number -- or as many as 12 percent -- have told pollsters they believe Elvis Presley is still alive, it becomes apparent that delusion has taken on a whole new meaning among the dominant racial majority. Apparently, it is easier for whites to believe that a pill-popping, washed-up lounge singer faked his own death and is playing midnight gigs at some tropical resort, than to believe what black folks say they experience every day. It makes me think that if ignorance is indeed bliss, then my fellow whites must be among the happiest folks on the planet. Read more.... http://www.alternet.org/story/11192/ Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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