Dr. Shane Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 A democratic govenment in Iraq like what is in northern neighbor, Turkey, would be a major victory. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 6, 2007 A democratic govenment in Iraq like what is in northern neighbor, Turkey, would be a major victory. Yes, I agree. Turkey is not a perfect democratic government-- who is?-- but it sure beats the socks off Syria. Turkey would be part of the European Union except for the fact that Turkey still has capital punishment. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Quote: Here's what winning would look like: You are not describing a win, you are describing a few properties that a win would have. What form of society in Iraq would have these properties? Quote: A win would be to keep Syria and Iran from interfering in Iraqi affairs and to keep Iran from being involved in the killing of American and Iraqi troops and police. The biggest external influence in Iraqi affairs is Iraq. The second biggest is the USA. You are simply listing Bush's scape-goats for his failed policies. Quote: A win would be to see the Iraqi insurgents stop blowing up and killing other Iraqis, and instead work together to make their nation strong and good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency defines "insurgency" as An insurgency, or insurrection, is an armed uprising, or revolt against an established civil or political authority Since the current government is NOT an established authority, but rather one that we are imposing by force... We have to accept that the current civil war in Iraq is supported by the Iraqi population because we have failed to create a political structure and economic structure that an overwhelming proportion of the country support. And you haven't proposed one either. Quote: As for democracy and elections: Hitler was elected. The current leader of Iran, who says that he would like to see Israel wiped off the map, was also elected. The simple fact that someone was elected is not what's important. Democracy can go bad if the electorate are not educated, not wise, or are easily manipulated by evil men. That is why the US has a republican form of government, and is not a pure democracy. Our forefathers-- speaking nationally-- did not trust the masses, and for good reason: they are notoriously fickle. If the electorate are uneducated or illiterate and foolish or corrupt, they cannot expect to get a government that is anything but like themselves. Their distrust of the masses, by the way, is one of the main reasons for the Electoral College. The Bush administration has demonstrated that the USA is susceptible, for a while, to such men also. Fortunately we have kicked the first round of them out - and in 2 years we get to to it to the rest of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 6, 2007 I was neither for nor against the war when it started. Right now I am totally disgusted and am now completely against it. Let me ask those who think it is winnable. What would be considered a victory? 1) A democratic Iraq? I doubt it will happen in the president's lifetime. Tribalism & sectarianism is too deeply ingrained there. 2) A pro-western Iraq? No even in your dreams! When the dust settles, it will probably be ruled by anti-USA Islamists. So, by what criteria do we gauge victory? IMO, if the Shiites & Sunnis want to maim/blow up/kill each other, we should not put our sons & daughters between them! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 7, 2007 Author Moderators Share Posted January 7, 2007 Quote: Look for a blood-bath in Iraq if America leaves that country too soon. It may make what Saddam did after his attempted assassination look like child's play. Isn't 100 people a day a blood bath? Saddam was accused of killing 143 people after the assasination attempt! When I speak of accountability I'm not talking about legal actions. When journalists, politicians and the public ask hard questions that holding the president accountable. The right has so often criticised those who asked hard questions are crisitcised the president. I think the uncritical support of those on the right has been partially responsible for the disaster in Iraq. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 7, 2007 Author Moderators Share Posted January 7, 2007 When I questioned the term LEFT I was really questioning its use as a blanket term for everyone who disagrees with Bush stratergy. "The Left wants the US to lose in Iraq". Does this idea include Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, Kerry, Gen Wes Clerk, Bill Clinton. I undestand that some of those handing out Militant may want America to lose. In general American politics is to the right of the rest of the world. So left really isn't so left. Many Gop politicians would be confortable in the British National Party which is condered to be far right. Check it out. http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/policies.htm Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I am not sure what the "Left" wants other than to get out of Iraq. I think most of the "Right" wants to get out too. The disagreement is how and when the US get out. As Bravus points out, getting out now would likely result in genoside. I don't think the "Left" wants that. Winning the war has always been about setting up a stable democracy. We see that has happened in Turkey, Palestine and Lebonon although each of those is not without its own set of problems. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.