Global Warming, Full Quivers, and Social Irresponsibility

[bevin]

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However if the governments of these developed countries create laws that overly burden industry, those industries will relocate to developing countries without such laws.

and the problem with this is...

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Much can be improved in the generation technology of the actual turbines that create the power

This seems unlikely to me - propellors and turbines have been studied extremely intensively for about 100 years now, I doubt there is more than 25% improvement, if that, possible

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It takes hundreds of acres of solar panels to generate what coal or natural gas plant can generate on one city block. In addition, the parts and equipment are more expensive for these alternative energy sources

as Bravus points out, the correct costs for coal and gas should include the damage they do, and does not

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That will only happen when there are financial incentives

You and I are in strong agreement on this one. But to a large extent the real costs are very difficult to define - leading to the global warming discussion, for instance.

[Dr. Shane]

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propellors and turbines have been studied extremely intensively for about 100 years now, I doubt there is more than 25% improvement, if that, possible

I purchase my power from an electric co-op. They send us a magazine a few times each year and there are constantly articles in there about the advancement in power generation. Each time an old generator has to be replaced, the new one is significantly more efficent which means it generates more power with less fuel.

From what I understand, a wind turbine spins a generator much like water flowing through a hydro-electric dam. However the wind doesn't move as fast as water through a dam. Where I live the wind blows an average of 11 mph. Coding allows anyone with at least 1/2 acre to install a wind turbine, so I qualify. However that turbine would only generate enough power to run my refrigerator. It would cost me between $2,000 and $4,000 and after about 10 years the batteries would need to be replaced. I would not even recover the initial investment in that time.

[there buster]

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massive environmental costs

Since those costs are presumptive, unknown and unknowable, the word "massive "is just speculation or rhetorical flourish.

What we have is environmental data. Then we have environmental 'modeling' which includes too few factors, and too many assumptions. We have contradictory evidence, but those who note it are considered 'heretics.'

IN the 20th century, the majority of the temperature increase, came BEFORE the major increase in CO2. This matches the evidence from the ice cores, that temperature increases PRECEDE CO2 increases. But of course, since this contradicts orthodoxy on this issue, it must be discounted.

Postmoderns discount religion because of corrupt Televangelists. They discount science because they see it, too, has become a religion, with dogma and heresy.

[Bravus]

Oops. I saw the headline of this report and thought 'Cool, something I can post to balance things up a bit, showing that I'm paying attention to the skeptical scientists too'.

Some Experts Blast Latest Climate Report

Sadly, when I went and read the article it turned out they were blasting it because it was not dire *enough*.

[Dr. Shane]

Keep looking... that article has to be out there some where.

[bevin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_on_sc/france_climate_change

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PARIS - Scientists from 113 countries issued a landmark report Friday saying they have little doubt global warming is caused by man, and predicting that hotter temperatures and rises in sea level will "continue for centuries" no matter how much humans control their pollution.

A top U.S. government scientist, Susan Solomon, said "there can be no question that the increase in greenhouse gases are dominated by human activities."

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The scientists said global warming was "very likely" caused by human activity, a phrase that translates to a more than 90 percent certainty that it is caused by man's burning of fossil fuels. That was the strongest conclusion to date, making it nearly impossible to say natural forces are to blame.

/Bevin

[Woody]

Personally I would have serious concerns and doubts about anything coming from France. This is the country that brought us the Food For Oil Fraud with the UN and Saddam. Then they acted so pious about the opposition to the Gulf War.

So ... if they organized those in attendance ... I would question it. If the people from the other countries were unbiased scientists then I might listen.

I know that Bush has a good plan to put reflectors in space that would prevent the heat from of sun away from the earth and thus prevent global warming. But, since it is from Bush I am sure it will not come to fruition. I suspect the Demos will want the credit of preventing global warming and will come up with a different plan.

[Bravus]

France was merely the venue, this is an on-going international program, not in any way French-organised.

Space reflectors are a loooong way off in terms of the technology, and unimaginably expensive to implement.

[Dr. Shane]

How do we know that Bravus isn't one of those scientists from country X that says, blah, blah, blah?

[Bravus]

There was a review article done a couple of years ago of all the published science on climate change. It found that, of the over 900 papers reviewed, ZERO suggested that climate change was NOT human caused. From memory about a third said it was most likely human caused and the rest did not ascribe a cause. I'll look it up again and post it soon, because my recall may well be faulty.

I think the reason it is moving away from a scientific issue and toward a political issue is because a lot of people don't like the science.

[Bravus]

Here it is: Oreskes, 2004. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

It's in 'Science', which is about as prestigious as scientific publications get.

[Dr. Shane]

It is interesting that the Democrat-controlled Congress is considering holding Congressional hearings on global climate change. In a democracy, politicians normally do what will get them re-elected. Curbing greenhouse gases means changing the American lifestyle in a way that Americans will not like. It means using less energy. That will mean less SUVs. It will mean forcing home owners to make their homes more energy efficient by placing quotas on the monthly electrical use. It will mean more mass transportation which may mean banning personal vehicles in congested downtown areas (like Mexico City does). Those are not the types of things that will get politicians re-elected.

[bevin]

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I know that Bush has a good plan to put reflectors in space that would prevent the heat from of sun away from the earth and thus prevent global warming

ROFLOL

This even sounds like a plan that he would back.

Unbelievably expensive - puts tax-payers money into CEO's pockets - and launching them into orbit will fill the atmosphere with more CO2

/Bevin

[Bravus]

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Those are not the types of things that will get politicians re-elected.

Unless Americans are convinced of the reality of climate change and the need for action, and angered by government inaction.

[Dr. Shane]

The only thing I can see in America is an environmental tax to be placed on the SUV that would be paid annually when the owner renews its plates. That would drastically change the market for them.

While rationing electricity would be effective, the voters will not allow it. Nuclear plants would have to be built to replace natural gas and coal burning plants if there were an international treaty the US had to abide by.

Biodesiel would also have to be used in trucks. It is still 85% petroleum but given the amount consumed, that would help with emissions.

[Woody]

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I know that Bush has a good plan to put reflectors in space that would prevent the heat from of sun away from the earth and thus prevent global warming

ROFLOL

This even sounds like a plan that he would back.

Unbelievably expensive - puts tax-payers money into CEO's pockets - and launching them into orbit will fill the atmosphere with more CO2

/Bevin

It is just good peer review science that the Scientists have come up with. Bush has just adapted THEIR plan. He didn't come up with the idea on his own.

PURE SCIENCE. And don't come back with adding the word "fiction".

[bevin]

Engage brain

What % of sunlight reaching the earth would you have to block? How high would you have to place the mirrors? What mass would the mirrors have to be? What would keep the mirrors in place?

/Bevin

[Woody]

I would have to study the Scientists plans more to give you your answers. But, I am sure you could write to Bush and he would be happy to give you the Scientific criteria.

I am sure that your "engage brain" response was the same response of those who thought we would never land on the moon.

I think this is a case of hate Bush and so hate all Bush plans.

[CyberGuy]

I heard that Mexico is converting Corn to Ethanol. Problem is that has created a shortage in Tortillas which is that thing they wrap burrittoes in. It is a staple and the cost has doubled. There was a massive protest in Mexico City with thousands holding up banners and waving tortillas in protest. The poor cannot afford to pay double for that.

So what to do. Use Ethanol from Corn or some other source. Remember that even if some other product is used it will take farmland away from the growth of food to the growth of fuel.

Either way the price of food will go up.

Now is that ethical?

[CyberGuy]

The only thing I can see in America is an environmental tax to be placed on the SUV that would be paid annually when the owner renews its plates. That would drastically change the market for them.

Even count the SUV's on the highway. one out of four cars on the highway are SUV's I read that and counted all the cars for a few miles and divided that by the SUVs I counted. It was about 1 in four. Also people would be up in arms with a tax like that. SUV's are used for carrying large families and for hauling goods to and from the house. It is a utiliy vehicle.

People would register their anger in votes and Politicians would not want to anger the public on a tax on a popular vehicle.

Also some are Hybrids which use electric and gas and get 40 MPG . Lexus has one as does Ford. Others will follow.

[CyberGuy]

There are things people can do to conserve power.

For instance when my washer and dryer broke down I replace them with energy star washer and dryers. When my Frig broke down I replaced it with an energy star Frig.

I replace all my light bulbs with florescent light bulbs. Only the dimmer lights are the regular bulbs.

I set my thermostat to 78 in the summer and 65 in the winter. Last light I turned off the heat and the house got to 63 by morning but I know it was going to be warm today. It is 84 degrees today and I have the house open and the house is now at 69. I have installed ceiling fans in most rooms in the house and I can rererse them so that it pulls air up to the ceiling sucking in the outside air in.

During the summer I turn off the AC at night if it is cool enough and use the fans to suck in the cool night air and shut up the house during the day. AC doed not come on till almost noon that way.

I have cut my electric bills in half by doing this.

Everyone should do simarlar things. Every little bit will help.

[Bravus]

Excellent stuff, Cyberguy: in our concentration on vehicles, and SUVs in particular (they're actually not a different class, and anything specifically targetting them versus other forms of transport doesn't really make sense), we often forget that transportation only represents about 40% of greenhouse gas emissions (that's from memory), and electricity generation is another huge one. And it's a win-win: less greenhouse gases for the environment, lower electricity bills and more disposable income for you! In fact, it's a win even if (a) there's no global warming or ( it's not human caused. Same with more fuel-efficient vehicles, actually.

[Dr. Shane]

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I heard that Mexico is converting Corn to Ethanol. Problem is that has created a shortage in Tortillas

I would have to see the back-up for that. I have never heard that story and I live on the border. Many of the women in Mexico make their own tortillas, they don't buy them in the store like we do. Most neighborhoods have a mill where the women take the corn they buy in the store and have it ground into flour. However wheat tortillas are just as popular in Mexico as corn tortillas so if the cost of corn increased I would think the market would just shift to wheat.

[Dr. Shane]

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SUV's are used for carrying large families and for hauling goods to and from the house.

The minivan is the luxurious option to the SUV. Very few people need a vehicle that hauls more than seven people.

[Dr. Shane]

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in our concentration on vehicles, and SUVs in particular (they're actually not a different class, and anything specifically targeting them versus other forms of transport doesn't really make sense)

The vehicles that would be targeted are those that get less than 25 mpg. That would include SUVs and pick-ups, including the hybrids.