Why is the NAD SDA kid retention rate so low?

[bevin]

I asked Ed this in a different thread and he replied...

Quote:

And this business of why retention rates are low, and have been low for a very long time, is something I have been studying since I started teaching in SDA schools in 1969.

There are a score of reasons why, but if I enumerate them here, 1)It might be considered off-topic, and 2)it will generate an enormous amount of heat--though probably NOT from you.

I know that very few of the kids I knew in the SDA church in NZ in the 1960's are still practising SDA

I know that very few of the young marrieds my wife and I knew in the SDA church in Adelaide Australia in the 1970's are still practising SDA

I know in the Nashua NH USA SDA church from 1982 until today the retention rate of kids is well under 20%.

I know none of my kids want anything to do with the SDA church, and were pleased when I resigned, and I know several other families with the same experience

So the retention rate is not in dispute - but why is it so high?

Here is another link...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n109_v28/ai_13885818

which gives a drop-out rate of between 25% and 60% just from age 16-19.

http://circle.adventist.org/browse/resource.phtml?leaf=2020

Mind you, it isn't just the child->adult step that has a high drop-out rate.

http://news.adventist.org/specials/annual_council_2004/secretary_report.html

Quote:

MEMBERSHIP RETENTION

I would like to call your attention to the high number of people who are reported as lost or dropped. For example, at the last 2003 Annual Council, 958,804 joined the church through baptisms or by profession of faith. The net growth was 561,524 which means 397,280 of them left. This year 1,006,492 people joined the church, but the net membership is 508,259. That means 498,233 have already left.

For every 2 people that join the SDA church, 1 leaves! And this isn't kids, it is members.

Nor is the SDA church alone in this - indeed this might actually be an excellent rate

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon411.htm claims that 1 Mormon leaves for every 1 that joins!

The rate is very high - it strongly suggests a need for core changes - and yet I don't see any significant core changes apart from in a few isolated places (such as Ed's startup church)

/Bevin

[there buster]

Barna also indicates that most of the movement from church to church was movement from denominations of all sorts to non-denominational and independent churches.

I personally witnessed this in my work with homeschoolers in Iowa.

Virtually all of them -- these are Boomers -- had been raised in some denomination, and left it when they became independent adults. They got married, and usually by the time their second child was born, they felt a need for church, so they joined a non-denominational or independent church.

This was SO common, I got to reciting it to new families I met, and they were shocked how I knew so much about them. It was either scary or comical.

The SERIOUS downside was this: They had joined non-denominational churches to avoid several contentious issues. And when their children became teenagers, and asked those difficult questions, the parents had no answers. So the cycle was renewed. The children--now adults--now had no reason to attend church.

[John317]

I know very few people from my generation that grew up with me or were in my classes at the academy in Loma Linda that are still SDA today. In fact, I only know of 3. I know there are more than that but I am just not aware of who they are. I made contact with one a few months ago, and she tells me she is interested again in Christ and in the church. A lot of these people will tell you that they actually don't know the reason they don't go to church. Many of these will even say they "know" the SDA church "has the truth" or is "the true church."

My local church of about 120 members consists almost entirely of people over 70. Typically only about 70 are in attendance on Sabbath. Many are unable to come. At this rate within about ten years it won't even exist. One member, who was a teacher at San Fernando SDA Academy and whose family are old friends of my family, is dying at LLU Medical Center even as I write. I'm going to see him today. (His oldest son is one of the leading men at Geo-Science, by the way.)

The situation at my church has me very concerned. We need to do more outreach, but that is not all we need. It takes youth in order to be able to get out on the streets and into the homes, and these members in our local church don't have the strength to do that. I have been attending church elsewhere, but I plan to start going to the local church again because I want to do what I can to help the local pastor. He's sent out a questionaire to all the members asking them for their advice as to what can be done. He told me recently, though, that he hasn't gotten many back.

[John317]

I'd like to propose a partial explanation why we see many dropping out, although it is not going to be a popular suggestion, and it certainly does not explain everything we see:

It is found in Revelation 3: 15-17. The only real cure or solution is found in verses 18-20.

[Woody]

The reason for the young people leaving is that they do not see the church as relevant for the times they live in. What relevant outreaches does your church do for your community and members?

Also ... as young people they do not appreciate being judged. And the church is all about judging and condemnation. This is the reality of their perceptions. You can deny it all you want. But they see the church as very judgmental. They are judged when they want to be baptized and they are judged when they want to be a member. And they are judged when they want to remain a member. If the UnBiblical idea of disfellowshipping was done away with then we might retain more young people.

[John317]

Post deleted by John317

[Woody]

You have a lot to be proud of John 317. It is apparent that you have done a good job of parenting.

I would love to check back with you after their teen years to see how well things are going with the church.

I also was as you described with your kids when I was 6 and 7. I would say that many at that age are. They will parrot what the parents present to them at that age. But when they get older they start to have a mind of their own.

I don't mean to frighten you. BUT ... I do wish you God's blessing. It is a great challenge.

[John317]

{quote] Redwood: The reason for the young people leaving is that they do not see the church as relevant for the times they live in. What relevant outreaches does your church do for your community and members?

Also ... as young people they do not appreciate being judged. And the church is all about judging and condemnation. This is the reality of their perceptions. You can deny it all you want. But they see the church as very judgmental. They are judged when they want to be baptized and they are judged when they want to be a member. And they are judged when they want to remain a member. If the UnBiblical idea of disfellowshipping was done away with then we might retain more young people.

My daughters love going to the church here, even though they are often the only kids in their Sabbath school class. Often they attend the adult Spanish class because there's no teacher for their youth group. They got baptized exactly a year ago on my oldest daughter's 18th birthday, and she asked the pastor to study with her about it herself. I have pictures posted of them getting baptized and showing how happy they were afterwards if you are interested.

None of the things you mentioned are apropos of our local church situation. A lot of members have moved away and many others have died or are sick or too old. I don't know of a single case while I've been at our local church where anyone has been disfellowshipped.

Some kids might leave because they felt "judged" but that is not necessarily the main reason young people leave. There are any number of reasons and sometimes there is not even a reason beyond the fact that they would rather do something besides go to church. At the LL Hill Church they had all kinds of activities and I enjoyed it, but I simply got to the point where I enjoyed doing other things, such as going off by myself and reading, going with my friends on freight train rides, or riding up and down main street while my friends looked for girls; things more exciting from a kid's viewpoint than going to church. A church can pander to kids and do everything they can to keep them, yet they can still leave. My kids (one is turning 19 today, the other is 14) go because they want to go. They also ask if we can have family worship, sing hymns, study some verses (last night was Gal. 1) and pray. They choose to go to church when my wife and I dont, and they go even when they are in Sacramento staying with their Catholic aunt and uncle or when visiting their Catholic relatives in Tijuana. By the way, there are 6 or 7 very active SDA churches in TJ.

[John317]

Quote:

Redwood: You have a lot to be proud of John 317. It is apparent that you have done a good job of parenting.

I spend most of my time supervising young people. I'm straight with our daughters and so is their mom. She's been a great mother. She can be a friend but she knows when she has to be Mother. Mexican women who grew up like my wife did-- the daughter of a Yaqi Indian peasant woman who married at 13, bore 12 children and who regularly ripped the heads off the chickens she fed her family-- are real open and honest with their daughters about the birds and the bees if you know what I mean. They talk to them about the way life really is, not the way it's s'pose t' be.

Quote:

I would love to check back with you after their teen years to see how well things are going with the church.

Yes, surprises can happen. As a postmodern, nonreligeous friend of mine says, Life happens. My oldest is having her 19th birthday today, the other is 14. They don't run in the streets, never done drugs, and are still virgins. We know where they are all the time and that is usually at home with us. My oldest gets calls from a couple of former schoolmates who are now in the Marine Corps. I got my shot-gun (just kidding.)

Quote:

I also was as you described with your kids when I was 6 and 7.

Yeah but my daughters are 19 and 14. (I also have a daughter 28 and a son 25, from a previous marriage, who live with their mom in Hawaii. My daughter has 4 kids, two of whom are identical twins, and was just here for a very good visit this last week. She met her husband when they were both on a mission to the Dominican Republic where they taught the people about health, gardening, and the gospel.)

Quote:

I would say that many at that age are. They will parrot what the parents present to them at that age. But when they get older they start to have a mind of their own.

I don't mean to frighten you. BUT ... I do wish you God's blessing. It is a great challenge.

Yes, that is true. But I know about that very well and do all I can to discourage it. My job of 20 years as a counselor to juvenile delinquents, where I constantly have to be upfront about everything and confronting them with their behavior, but at the same time being in some ways their best friend-- well, let's just say my daughters know that I am not interested in their just parroting anyone, and besides that I can spot that a mile away. They know they can tell me and their mother anything and they do. It's not like I was with my parents. They were wonderful but they were middle class professionals and didn't talk to their children the way my wife and I do. I learned about sex, for instance, from my older brother and from the boys on our street. But yes, despite all that I've said here, it certainly is a big challence. A parent can do everything right yet a child can turn out "bad"-- at least for a while.

If we go by ordinary measures of success, would you say God has been a success as a parent with His children? Almost all of God's kids are rebellious and quarrel with Him all the time, don't obey too well, don't appreciate what He's done for them, and don't seem at all interested in spending time with him. When He writes or sends them a personal representative or a spokewoman to his closest children, even many of them ignore Him or her, and they don't bother to read His letters that He put a thousand years into getting written. How's that for successful parenting?

[Neil D]

I'd like to propose a partial explanation why we see many dropping out, although it is not going to be a popular suggestion, and it certainly does not explain everything we see:

It is found in Revelation 3: 15-17. The only real cure or solution is found in verses 18-20.

While that may be the case, I would like to suggest another biblical answer.....

Matthew 24:12b And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

If you don't know what iniquity is, I suggest that you study it in the context of sin, iniquity and transgression, and know the difference between them all. You might be surprised to learn that there is a difference and there is a remedy.

The answer is easier than you think and yet, hard to figure out...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'd like to propose a partial explanation why we see many dropping out, although it is not going to be a popular suggestion, and it certainly does not explain everything we see:

It is found in Revelation 3: 15-17. The only real cure or solution is found in verses 18-20.

While that may be the case, I would like to suggest another biblical answer.....

Matthew 24:12b And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

If you don't know what iniquity is, I suggest that you study it in the context of sin, iniquity and transgression, and know the difference between them all. You might be surprised to learn that there is a difference and there is a remedy.

The answer is easier than you think and yet, hard to figure out...

No question-- you have a good point.

Iniquity at Matt. 24:12 is translated from the Greek word anomia, and means "illegality, violation of law, lawlessness." It occurs at 1 John 3: 4 where the King James says, "Sin is the transgression of the law." Others read, "lawlessness." Lawlessness means living in opposition to, or as if there is no, law. However you slice it, it is violating law.

Transgression is translated from the word Parabasis and means "violation, breaking, transgression, overstepping."

All of the standard Greek-English lexicons, as well as Strong's, show these words as having virtually the same meaning. Both are violations of law, although I realize there are some subtle differences between the two words.

I'd like to hear what you say about the differences between these two words and about the context in Matt. 24: 12. I'm sure you've given it a lot of thought and have some worthwhile insights.

For me, at any rate, as I'm sure you will agree, an essential part of the solution is true conversion and having the Holy Spirit in one's life in a moment by moment walk with Jesus Christ and submitting one's will entirely to God and to God's word. The Holy Spirit gives us love for each other, and when the community sees this kind of love in church, many of them will want to be among people exhibiting that kind of love. One problem, however, is that the community often doesn't know about people with that love. So we need to break ourselves away from our computers, etc., and go out and get to know the people in our communities on a personal basis so that they also know us. I've noiced that it's a problem getting many people to come to a church building even when they know the people there are loving and accepting.

The reason I think Rev. 3: 15-20 is so important in answering the questions this thread asks is, that those verses apply in a special sense to the Seventh-day Adventist church. We've known that for years, yet as a church and as individuals we generally haven't taken what it says to heart. We tend to let too many things distract us and keep us from practicing it wholeheartedly. That is when we grow lukewarm and finally drop out of the church and often eventually move away from Christ.

Sometimes, however, people drop out the SDA to enter other "communities of faith." Some even have joined the Catholic Church, a church that the Bible (as well as God's modern-day prophet) very plainly says is Babylon and fallen, along with most of the protestant churches of today. I know the Catholic church. I study their Catechisms and their history, and I used to attend services there with my wife. I'm not saying it's all bad-- there are some elements of the gospel still preached and practiced, and God still has millions of His people in it. But the point is it is Babylon and is full of doctrines of demons, such as its prayers to the dead, teachings of the Mass, its emphasis on traditions that oppose the Scriptures, its belief in endless torment and the immortality of the wicked, its counterfeit priesthood, its false sabbath, and its false teachings concerning the means of grace and salvation. I actually did for a while consider the possibility of joining the Catholic church because I am attracted to certain aspects (such as its appreciation of art, its philosophical depth, its surface openness to different views and interpretaions, and its impressive ceremonies.) It was my realization of those false doctrines that kept me out.

By the way, notice Matthew 24: 11 where there's a warning of false prophets. Why didn't Christ just warn us against all prophets? (I think Eph. 4: 11-14 offers the answer.)

Also verse 13 is worth studying and taking note of: "He who endures to the end shall be saved."

If I accept Christ today but then a few years from now live as if I never accepted Him and go on to live as if He doesn't exist, would I be saved if I continued that way until the day I die? There are a lot of people who believe the answer to that is yes.

[Jeannieb43]

(Just a comment, not necessarily in response to any specific post...)

I believe the kids of today are 21st century kids, living in the 21st century, having to find their way morally and otherwise while most of their peers are getting high on drugs etc. and spending their time watching TV. --And our church maintains itself as a 19th century organization, trying to attract 21st century young people. Using teaching methods of the 19th century--when kids came to church willingly and voluntarily. They're just not on the same wave length.

When our church was first organized, the bulk of the American population lived in small towns. The churches were not only religious centers, they were also social centers. Going to mid-week prayer meeting provided not only spiritual food but social interaction. And on Sabbaths [or Sundays] the families went to church for the whole day, staying for potluck lunch plus afternoon service.

[i lived briefly on a farm early in my first marriage; we had no close neighbors, and going to church on Sabbath was the one highlight of the week. Even though the church only had 75 members.]

The organization plan for the SDA Church takes this into consideration. The local conferences were set up so the president could travel to each of the churches in his conference within one day, therefore being able to visit each one on a Sabbath. And we needed a Union Conference system to be a teaching/supervising system for the local conferences.

Nowadays travel is so much faster, and our organization has grown so topheavy, that more of our tithe goes to administration than to outreach. IMHO we could do without the Union Conferences now. But the Union administrations will never vote themselves out of business; the Union presidents constitute the most powerful group in the church [they are the ones who elect the GC President; they are the ones who control all the local conferences' hiring and firing].

So, though they have the least amount of political 'clout' in the church organization, the most VALUABLE of our workers are the LOCAL PASTORS. They and they alone touch the members. And they and they alone are charged with creating programs which will attract the 21st century kids to want to know more [and tell more] of the wonderful gospel we hold dear.

I don't have an answer. I only know I fear for the young parents of today; raising children in this day and age is so very difficult. Not only do they have to physically watch their children every single minute [kids can't ride their bicycles except in their own yards; kids can't walk to school alone any more]... but they need to make this faith attractive to their babies. Babies who are brought up on Sesame Street (if they're lucky) and Mickey Mouse (if they're not). HOW can you compete with that??!

My daughter's 2-y-o goes to a ("mommie and me") play group every week. She's a well-behaved child and very sweet. But then when she goes to Cradle Roll Sabbath School she doesn't know the difference, so she walks around playing on the rocking horse, etc., instead of sitting still. --and this child has a full-time stay-at-home mother. I tremble to think what the childcare kids are learning.

Well, enough of this rambling. Sorry. I just pray daily for my kids and grandkids. That's about all we can do.

[darlene]

I am having a very difficult time recognizing 'this church' you are talking about. A church where most of the youth and young adults leave the church. 'My church' is not like that. I grew up in the Adventist Church and most of those that I grew up with are still with the church. Only a few have left. Many of us are missionaries, doctors, nurses and other professional and trades people.

I do realize that today some young adults leave the church. Many of today's youth are very spiritual and are still with our church. Many of the young adults who leave are single. Singleness is not that well accepted in 'my church.'

I happen to work for 'my church' and used to be responsible for keeping our membership database. I believe that those who leave our church leave for several reasons:

1. Critical attitude - inspired by evil

2. Getting mixed up with disgruntled, negative people in the

church

3. Singleness - non acceptance

4. When converted they do not not find church members to

replace their previous friendship/support base.

5. Peer pressure or need for acceptance by peers.

No, God is still in control of 'my church.' It is not perfect but, it is still His Church and I will do my best to allow Him to use me to reach others for Him. 'My Church' is going through to the end and I know that many, many children and youth will be coming along with us to our Heavenly Home.

[Gail]

I appreciate many of the points that are raised here, but like Darlene I don't recognize my church in there. I realise that the church of the 70s and 80s went through a major crisis that resulted in many casualties.

I can speak from the viewpoint of my own children. 2 of the 3 have a vibrant Christian experience and are in the SDA church. The other one really isn't very spiritual but is not antagonistic towards it and still retains his SDA friendships.

I think the key word might be, for anyone and not just young people, a vibrant Christian experience. At the very least we should train our kids that knowing God is a life skill and relationship that will equip the child for ANY hardship life calls for.

I think what makes the biggest factor in the lives of my children is that they have a close supportive circle of spiritual friends who have taken an interest in them. Unless a person feels a mighty conviction in Scripture itself I don't know of anything else more powerful for encouraging someone to stay

[Woody]

I for one am sure happy to hear all these good reports.

I think it is great. But I would not advise these people to get out and travel to other SDA churches. It might be very discouraging.

[lazarus]

For what its worth, here's my two cents:

I have found that at the crucial age of 16-24 many churches do not have a program that caters for that group or they are not proactive in involving that group.

Up until about 16/18 there is pathfinders, adventurers, various SS classes, various teen programs etc. but once they hit college age they are expected to fit in with whatever the main body of the church is doing.

To be honest, most of what many churches do week to week is quite boring to most adults let alone 18-24. We need to involve them in the activity of doing church. Being a deacon/deaconess is not just about collecting offering etc. Being an elder is not just about going on the platform.

As a young adult I was asked to be an elder, teach SS etc. I did it in my own way but there was encouragement and a desire to include us as young adults.

As with anyone, if they are not involved, connected and appreciated they will look for other places where they will get all of those things.

[darlene]

I think you are right, lazarus, involvment in something we believe in helps a person feel it belongs to them or helps a person to feel they belong. We need to put our youth and young adults to work, afterall they are God's children just as much as adults are. That is what 'my church' is doing for our youth and young adults.

Redwood, I happen to be in a different church most every weekend. That is part of my job with 'my church.' Yes, there are youth and young adults who leave 'my church' but, I do not believe the problem is as extensive as I have been reading in this thread. God's church, 'my church' is going through to the end and aren't we told that it will the the youth who finish the work?

[Taylor]

I have been involved with teens and mission trips. One thing that they often say is they are tired of being side kicks in the USA. They want to be centrally involved.

On these mission trips they are definately not side kicks but intregal to the success of the program. They rise to the ocassion and come back on fire and pumped! Yes, it can wane after a while, but I think that one key to keeping kids in the church is to involve them, not just entertain them, which does have it place, but to involve them as well. Let them have responsibilities, let them try inovated things, give them leadership roles, let them discover the beauty of what they believe for themselves not just because they've been spoon fed that knowledge previously. Once their convictions become their own, not just complying with what is imposed on them. Once they see that they have a place, a role they can fill, a mission they can accomplish. When they see that God can use them, even at a young age, they are far more likely to stay in the church.

Of course this is just one facet. There are many other areas that need to be considered. And yes, some kids have been critized to death, others have people who should be their leaders in their life who are apathetic and simply don't care. Others have had horrendous experiences which have made them hate religion and God because perhaps being abused by a teacher or someone whom they had looked up to as "spiritual".

Just my 2 cents.

[there buster]

Young adults, and that's what we're talking about, because they tend to leave in the years 17-25, don't want "programs" to keep them busy. As Taylor indicates, they want to lead out. They don't want to be "involved" in our programs, they want to show us what they can do, want to generate new types of programs.

For the first 16 years of their lives, we entertain them. They do finger plays, they go to the sandbox or the flannel board. They participate. In good Sabbath schools.

In bad ones, they're lectured, they get bored, they may even be verbally abused, but they're kids. They go where we take them.

Some go to boarding Academy, where they lead out in Sabbath School and other activities. The music there is usually more attuned to them, the speakers and so on.

Then, IF they return home, they're basically patted on the head (assuming they attend church), and told to sit quietly and let the "grownups" do everything. If they don't attend church, or if they want music or drama or anything more active, most churches tell them they're not worshiping, or that their activities are from the devil.

Is it any wonder they leave? Why should they stay?

For nearly twenty years, I attended an SDA church where the leadership was corrupt, and they sought out pastors to aid their corruption. I was an adult, committed to the church. If I had been younger, I don't know what I would have done. When the church began damaging my children, I acted.

NOw, in our church plant, we have segments aimed at every age group. We have a story. We sing children's activity songs, and grandma and grandpa do it, too (as well as we can: "inright outright upright downright happy all the time" can be outright daunting for old joints). We don't have a separate service for the children to keep them occupied, we communicate every week that worship is for everyone, of every age.

[lazarus]

Quote:

For nearly twenty years, I attended an SDA church where the leadership was corrupt, and they sought out pastors to aid their corruption. I was an adult, committed to the church. If I had been younger, I don't know what I would have done. When the church began damaging my children, I acted.

Hey, sounds like the last place I pastored!

Until recently, I was a youth pastor in a large SDA church and my biggest challenge was to encourage the senior pastor/members to make the young people a priority.

Reluctantly, we had decided to have youth church because the church was steadfastly against in allowing the youth to participate in a meaningfull way. There were the usual music/drama/dress issues. We had a teen vespers and about 6months before I left we started a young adult "vespers" on Friday night. They both worked well but its was if the "establishment" of the church saw them as a threat or even subversive.

It was interesting that those who gave us the most hassle were people whose kids no longer attended church!

A pastoral colleague of mine says its easier to give birth to a baby rather to try to raise the dead. She left regular SDA pastoral ministry to plant a church. Some churches are simply too entrenched to make the shift to loving and embracing their young people.

[Taylor]

Absolutely couldn't agree more Ed. It is a rare thing to find a church that is brave enough to let kids lead and try inovated things. Yes they might need some guidance or help but they are way more capable than we give them credit.

After one mission trip, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that one particular church has allowed those kids to preach the Sabbath service, do the children's stories, and other such things in the church. However, I would guess that this church is the exception not the rule. Also, why does it take the kids having previous experience doing something, in order for them to do it in their home church? It's like graduating from college. You have to have the degree, but most jobs want experience. That is understandable, but one has to get experience in order to have experience.

I would be fascinated to see a worship service done in your church Ed where the kids are integrated with the adults. It sounds really neat!!

[darlene]

We do need to target our children and youth and involve them in the church and ministry. I like the research stats that George Barna Research Group released in 2003 in the book Transforming children into Spiritual Champions. He says that 32% of those between the ages of 5-12 years, 4% of those between the ages of 13-18 years and only 6% of those over 19 years of age give their hearts to Christ.

So, shouldn't we be targetting those between the ages of 5-12 years the most?

[there buster]

Quote:

So, shouldn't we be targetting those between the ages of 5-12 years the most?

There are several problems with that.

1. 5-12 is a pretty broad spread, in developmental terms. That's at least three different stages of development, not one.

2. All those percentages added together only come up to 42%. So roughly 3 out of every 5 children/youth are NOT making that commitment.

3. There's no effective way of targeting 5yo except within the family context. And that gets sticky in a hurry.

[bevin]

The other issue with targetting 5-12 y/o is that they are the ones that are still getting their values from people, not from reasoning.

Once they learn about the world for themselves, what are they going to think of these years.

I know what I think.

I think the SDA church lied to me. I think the SDA church told me that specific facts were true and specific individuals were reliable, and when I learnt more about the world, I discovered these facts were false and these individuals were charasmatic but not reliable sources of information. Furthermore I found out that the SDA church leadership knew these facts were dubious, and was deliberately concealing this knowledge.

There were aspects of SDA'ism that I found true and beneficial apart from these items, and these items were not foremost in the SDA church from 1980-2000, so it did not matter.

When they became critical items again in 2000-2006, I resigned.

These days the kids are either not joining or are resigning younger, because they are discovering younger that the SDA church is a mixture of good stuff and bad stuff, and shows no sign of fixing the bad stuff.

Targetting 5-12 y/o is not going to change the 15-25 y/o drop-out rate.

Getting 15-25 y/o's involved in the same bad stuff isn't going to change it either.

The SDA church needs to CHANGE some CORE STUFF. I can't see it happening in the current "stick to the way-marks, world-unity, don't upset the conservatives" climate.

/Bevin

[darlene]

Well, yes that only equals 42% of people. However my understanding from reading the book is that it means 42% of all people, not 42% of Christians. Yes, 5 is young and yes, these years do cover a wide developmental range. However, please do not minimize the value of children giving their lives to Christ. When you look at how Jesus valued children, can we do any less? Afterall he said that if someone offends one of these little ones they are to be cast in the depth of the sea. Pretty strong words don't you think?

You probably know that children do understand more than we credit them with. It is especially important that we target the work with children when you see the small number of them who give their lives to Christ between the ages of 13-18 years and when they are adults.

Now, I'm not minimizing the value of working with the young adult for it is probably during this age span that they display the lack of giving their lives to Christ as children and walk away from the church. It is also during this time that you will find young adults who are not married and do not have children leave. From observing the single adult at our retreats I would also venture to say that they leave because they are not accepted as single and do not feel they 'belong' because we as church members look on being single as something unacceptable. I will admit that this church must change to accept all people whether married or single as equally worthy canadiates for heaven for God loves all His children.