Why is the NAD SDA kid retention rate so low?

[bevin]

Quote:

You probably know that children do understand more than we credit them with. It is especially important that we target the work with children when you see the small number of them who give their lives to Christ between the ages of 13-18 years and when they are adults.

So ignorant gullable people are easier to convert?

Where is the evidence that the child is more likely to still be a Christian at age 25 if they were so manipulated while still being dominated by parents?

/Bevin

[darlene]

Well, Bevin, obviously "my church" is not like your church. Yes, "my church" is not perfect, no church is. All churches are made up of imperfect people. If we look for it, we will always find imperfections. I do not look for the imperfections in "my church." I look at Jesus. He is the one who is in charge of "my church."

Often we forget that changing "my church" begins with 'me.' It does not happen when I look at those in leadership and look for their faults. No, change begins with 'me.'

[bevin]

Darlene, every religion and denomination tries to keep its children - Islam, Christian; Catholics, LDS, JW, Baptist, SDA

In the countries where education and standard of living conditions are high, they are all failing, not just the SDA.

Every commercial company, every political party, every branch of science, and every sport is always asking itself "What do we assume that is wrong? What rule or practise should we change?" but religions, oh no, they already have the TRUTH, their fundamental beliefs could not possibly be wrong.

If the SDA church wants to keep relevant, it needs to be prepared to think about the possibility that some of its fundamental beliefs and some of its peripheral beliefs are wrong.

I don't see that willingness. All I see is "everything we have is truth, it is just the packaging that is wrong".

Companies with that attitude go bankrupt.

An important Harvard Business School study concluded "previously successful companies go bankrupt doing exactly what made them successful". I worked for a huge computer company - Digital Equipment Corporation - that went from being one of the most successful to being bankrupt because they could not change.

/Bevin

[darlene]

Now, I've never said that "my church" is perfect, have I? What I am saying is that change begins with 'me.' I cannot look at and critisize anyone else until I make every effort to change 'me.' That is where change in "my church" begins.

[bevin]

You are right - when I am uncomfortable in a setting I need to investigate whether I should change or the setting should change.

When I did this investigation, I decided that I should change. I decided that my area to fix was the feeling I should be in church. I could not justify this feeling, so I changed it.

Then I dropped my church membership.

It is okay to say "change begins with me" - but these kids are changing themselves right out of the church.

The risk of the "change begins with me" argument is that it stops consideration of other possible changes.

You wrote

Quote:

All churches are made up of imperfect people

Again this is a line of argument that stops consideration of possible changes to the church itself.

The SDA people are wonderful people. So are the Catholics and the LDS. It is not the people that are the problem - even though they are imperfect - it is the organisation and some of its core beliefs that need to be changed.

/Bevin

[Gail]

Talking about kids and their spiritual lives-

Perhaps the reason why kids give their hearts to Christ at an early age is because they are spiritually minded at a young age. Jesus told us that WE must become like little children and this might be why. Children are not critical or disillusioned by the world, but trusting in God

Gullible? Maybe- they trust those in authority. But Christ does not fault them for being gullible. He commends them for their faith

[bevin]

The problem is getting these same kids to keep their faith and their denomination as their understanding of the world matures.

A huge proportion of them discard their denomination, and a significant portion of those discard their faith.

I don't care about the denomination piece of that, but I do care about the loss of faith.

/Bevin

[Gail]

As I do, as well, Bevin. Well said!

[there buster]

Quote:

The problem is getting these same kids to keep their faith and their denomination as their understanding of the world matures.

The solution, like most important things in life, is simple but not easy.

In Biblical terms, it's simply the Elijah message. But simple as that is, even mentioning it causes a storm of controversy, which will break here soon, I expect.

[lazarus]

Quote:

it is the organisation and some of its core beliefs that need to be changed.

I can accept the need for organisational changes but I am not sure there is a willingness to change attitudes and priorities that are needed to make our young people a priority.

There are many churches who are doing and excellent job but there are many more who just don't understnd what the issues really are concerning our youth.

I'm not really convinced that changing some of our core beliefs would make a difference. Which core beliefs are you talking about? In my experience the issue isn't really doctrine (if thats what your mean) but its relationships.

IMHO Many youth feel disconnected from their churches not from a belief standpoint but a relational standpoint.

Is there anything that we can learn from the Armish whose retention rate is high?

[there buster]

The Amish maintain an almost totally separate culture. And although they do lose sore than is obvious (there are many, many Amish within 50 miles of my home in several directions) they have no outreach.

The LDS have a much better retention rate than we do, and they also have effective outreach.

Unfortunately the have as high, or slightly higher rates of abuse, both physical and sexual, than we do.

By the way, we rank way too high in those areas, as well.

Once again, the Elijah message is the answer, but if I'm more specific than that, expect the flaming to begin.

[Gail]

I won't flame you, Ed. I'm interested in what you have to say

[lazarus]

I'm surprised you are hesitant because of a "little" flaming! Everytime I post I put on my 39% Asbestos/60% polyester/1% Lycra..... pants. Lets have it.

Despite the differences and problems is there anything we can from the groups prevoiusly mentioned?

[Gail]

Quote:

I'm surprised you are hesitant because of a "little" flaming! Everytime I post I put on my 39% Asbestos/60% polyester/1% Lycra..... pants. Lets have it.

There's the spirit! LOL

[there buster]

Who said anything about "a little?"

Here goes nothing:

Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers;

Cultural postmodernism, more than anything else, is rejection of the parents' religion, their parents way of life.

Quote:

We refuse God's judgments, yet judge our parents harshly by canons in which hypocrisy is the only capital crime. And anything that smacks of the Establishment (a hangup inherited from our Boomer parents) elicits nothing but our contempt. The Establishment purports to be for the greater good, but what has the greater good ever done for us? Sarah Hinlicky, "Talking to Generation X"

My M.A. is in Religious Education, where we spend a lot of energy understanding just exactly this topic--transmitting our Religious Heritage to the next generation.

We often wonder why we fail to transmit our religion to our children, But the truth is, we are more successful than we know. OUr children do in fact see what we actually live for, and they adopt that for themselves, with some modification.

If we are rigid and judgmental, they rigidly judge us as wanting and abandon our denomination. If we care more for our own pride than for the truth, they will, too.

Now I'm going to be inundated by people saying, "All parents do the best they know how for their children."

I'm sorry, but nearly 40 years of observing parents as a professional educator tells me otherwise.

And the verses above tell a story.

Why is it necessary to "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children?"

Because they're turned somewhere else.

And when the hearts of the fathers are turned to their children, the children's hearts will naturally turn back to their fathers.

This is today's testing truth. We like to think that testing truths only test those outside the church. But with any real testing truth, the testing STARTS at the house of God.

We lose our children because our hearts are elsewhere.

[Gail]

I don't see anything wrong with the above statement.

I have always liked that verse and have thought about it lots

[there buster]

Just look at the "should mothers work" thread, and you'll see the sort of thing that I'm talking about. It gets heated quickly.

[darlene]

You are probably right, Ed Dickerson. I have seen it in my life and I have seen it in the lives many of my students. There are parents who are very loving and there are also critical parents who send/set a message children pick up.

[bevin]

Ed, I perceive you as attributing solely emotional causes to a problem which has both an emotional and rational component.

Most baby-boomers reject organized religion because they learnt in their teens that leaders (parental, political and religious) lie AND because they were never given an emotional or rational reason beyond "I said so".

I don't think that educated children are going to follow an counter-rational religion regardless of filial affection - but I agree that lack of it will cause them not to follow.

So it seems to me that TWO things have to be fixed

• Parent's must be good parents, not yet another hypocritical father-figure. Decisions must be comprehensible and clearly in the teenager's interest. No random rulings.
• The religion must be emotionally satisfying - and this must include being intellectually satisfying. No random poorly-proven poorly-relevant doctrines.

But look at what the SDA culture forces parents to do.

• You can kiss your girlfriend, you can get to third base in the back of the car, but you can't dance with her.
• You can drive at recklessly high speeds without a seat-belt, but you can't drink coffee
• You can play competitive basketball for your Academy team, but you can't play card games
• You can be grossly over- or under- weight and eat all the fats and sugars you want, but you can't eat a hamburger
• You can watch DVD's all night long, but you can't go to a movie

No wonder the kids reject SDA'ism as hypocritical - and that is before they learn (my era) about Rea, Ford, Davenport, Folkenberg, ...

/Bevin

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

hmmm. When I was growing up my dad was not an Adventist (my mom was SDA). I could play cards, eat a hamburger, go out to movies, go to a dance ('cepting I didn't know how to dance - but could do a GREAT Grand March!!!)... I could do anything a non-Adventist could do.

But I still left the church as soon as I could.

[Guest]

Yes' date=' there are youth and young adults who leave 'my church' but, I do not believe the problem is as extensive as I have been reading in this thread. [/quote']

The extent of the problem that we are reading about in this thread comes from anti-Adventist cult groups who tend to hyper-inflate the real deal.

Granted, some churches have a worse problem than others; but over-all; I do see some fine examples of young people in action, at Church.

To me; the biggest reason that people do leave is because we don't want to be human beings to one another. I don't want to point out specific examples; only to say that we have far too many "outreach" "programs" but the trouble is, is that fewer and fewer people fit into this "outreach" that we esteem so highly.

It very rarely has anything to do with doctrines, as to why young people leave...it is almost always to do with a basic failure on the part of adults who are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.

LOL, I have a 14 year old sitting behind me as I type this; and when I asked him why he doesn't enjoy some Sabbaths at Church; he said it best: "Sometimes it's boring, and the people are rude."

I see Sabbath School teachers just stand there and read from the quarterly to us, and get all upset if anyone interupts them to ask questions or make comments. (and they call themselves a "teacher??"). So this kind of thing can definitely make it boring. People need to lighten up and let the young people be a part of things.

I believe it also has to do with the parents who do not have a real experience with Christ; and they have nothing in that department to share with their kids. So why would the kids want to stay in Church when they get a little older and "have their own minds?"

My kids don't like all that they see at Church; neither do I, but wait! There is something else! I have not led either of my sons through a detailed study of prophecy! Is that maybe the problem? If you said yes, then you are likely part of the problem.

My boys are well aware of why I became a Christian, how I became one; and what Jesus means to me. When they see me have a real experience with Jesus; it makes them glad to attend Church with me some weekends! They know that when they are a little older and "have their own minds" that I will want the opportunity to explain the prophecies to them; but right now, we do enjoy going to Church when we go, because we go to either learn something about Jesus, or to encourage someone, or share something with another in some way. It doesn't seem to effect whether or not they will attend, when people in church get crazy. The only thing that effects it is if we have something better to go for than to look at other people.

Just be real with Jesus; so you can be real with your kids. And then, Jesus really will do the rest.

[Guest]

Who said anything about "a little?"

Here goes nothing:

[color:#FF0000]Malachi 4:5 "See' date=' I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 [b']He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers;

[color:#FF0000]We lose our children because our hearts are elsewhere.

Wow Ed! You and I are in agreement on something! This was/is a good post. My feelings exactly. I just posted something to this effect, in different words; and before I had read this post.

I belive the Bible says "piety begins FIRST at home." My feeling is, that many parents don't even wonder why the Bible says this. it is not in the picture.

But, we have the precious promise in Mal.4:5 :happysabbath:

[james423]

Just this evening I noticed a news story on the local NBC news station about some young people building a home for some poor church member. Wonder what they should tell us about this problem?

Also as a church we have confused "principles" and "practices". Principles are the core beliefs translated into action, "practices" in most cases our personal prejudices.

We also have a tendency to believe that every church member, even the younger members, should be at the same stage of spiritual growth.

Lack of something to do, being negative if someone crosses our "prejudices", and expecting spiritual uniformity is a sure way to get rid of members.

Just my viewpoint.

[olger]

Karl Haffner said that "part of the problem is that many of our children are over-entertained and under-challenged." He could be right..

`G

[there buster]

Here's a response from one young woman, raised and educated in the church. After reading my book, she sent me an e-mail. A couple of excerpts:

Quote:

Over the past few years, I have tried ignorance, atheism, and agnosticism. The biggest reason for my personal aversion to church or church people, is exactly the same type of thing that David and some of the characters in your book cited–churchy people who’s spiritual depth does not go beyond their routine of church and not swimming on certain days of the week. I failed to see how I could follow that God. emphasis mine

Sounds pretty substantive to me.

Quote:

About 3 years ago, some one told me I needed to go to church so I could meet some people my age. I went a couple times, for that reason alone. I found a lot of gray heads and few hellos.

the entire e-mail can be read here

I'm sure there are some over-entertained and under challanged-- of all ages.

But this young woman is more what I usually encounter.

Lots of spiritual depth, lots of desire to participate, but few places and individuals willing and able to satisfy those needs.