darlene Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Last night a conference administrator and myself met with a church board who have a very difficult problem to solve. They have a former church member who is a convicted pedophile and will be getting out of jail shortly. He offended while he was an Adventist. He admits he has sinned and wants to come back to church so they can help him overcome his problem. Our conference does have a policy where he must submit to and sign a very stiff agreement and the church must always provide an accountability partner for him whenever he is at any church activity or function. Yes, the chances of him overcoming his problem are slim. The changes of him reoffending are great. The church must first and foremost protect their children. They do realize this. We left before they voted any decision. So, if you/your church had to face this kind of decision, what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 It would all depend on if someone was willing to be his accountability partner. That may mean his access to church functions is limited to only those his accountability partner is going to attend. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darlene Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 They must have a team of accountability partners to sign an agreement. That is in the policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Last night a conference administrator and myself met with a church board who have a very difficult problem to solve. They have a former church member who is a convicted pedophile and will be getting out of jail shortly. He offended while he was an Adventist. He admits he has sinned and wants to come back to church so they can help him overcome his problem. Our conference does have a policy where he must submit to and sign a very stiff agreement and the church must always provide an accountability partner for him whenever he is at any church activity or function. Yes, the chances of him overcoming his problem are slim. The changes of him reoffending are great. The church must first and foremost protect their children. They do realize this. We left before they voted any decision. So, if you/your church had to face this kind of decision, what would you do? I would welcome him back to worship with us with open arms and complete forgiveness of his past. As a church member, I wouldn't bring it up to him even once. But he would need to be in close consultation with the pastor. And if he is sincere and honest, he will not even want to be in the company of children without adult supervision. It sounds like your church is doing the right thing in having him closely watched at church functions where children are involved. He understands this, too, as it is part of the conditions of his being released from jail or prison. In fact, if he has undergone any kind of treatment or therapy-- which I am sure he has-- he knows this is for his own protection and not only for the protection of children. I notice that he is a "former church member." That is best both for the church as well as for him, because of the public nature and magnitude of the offense and the damage done to the name of Christ and of the church. I hope the pastor makes it clear that after a period of time, he can once again be made a member of the church. And I hope he finds lots of friendship, love, and prayerful support among all the church members and that they treat him with respect and dignity as they do with everyone else. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 This subject can get crazy sometimes on here. So glad it is keeping civil this time. Here is one of the problems, we, as a Church, can show more compassion to the one who crosses the line, then we do the victim. People pray and weep with them before they go off the prison. AND increase activity with them after they are back. This is one of the most devastating event to the little kids. Who are often several years older when the court systems have finally done all their process. Tough calls, really tough sometimes... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darlene Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 That is true Stan. We do need to welcome him back, but we also need to ensure that he is accountable for his actions. Sometimes our best friends will not let us get away with everything we want to do. By being a friend they will insist that we 'behave' our best. That is part of being Christ-like. Children should be our #1 priority and we must ever keep in mind the words of Jesus, "Then He said to the disciples, It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 You are talking about your "beliefs." I am talking about what every psychologist and social worker who deals with these kinds of things on a daily basis knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 This subject can get crazy sometimes on here. So glad it is keeping civil this time. Here is one of the problems, we, as a Church, can show more compassion to the one who crosses the line, then we do the victim. People pray and weep with them before they go off the prison. AND increase activity with them after they are back. This is one of the most devastating event to the little kids. Who are often several years older when the court systems have finally done all their process. Though calls, really tough sometimes... I am always happy to pray with the young offenders I work with. They sometimes get up in the middle of the night and ask me to pray with them. But I don't weep with them and I don't tell them I feel sorry for them. I haven't met any who didn't deserve to be right where they were. I tell them they need to do their time-- do their "program"-- and then try to get on with their life without getting into any more trouble. But I do give them Steps to Jesus and a Bible and, if they ask for it, a set of Bible studies. If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Children should be our #1 priority and we must ever keep in mind the words of Jesus, "Then He said to the disciples, It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:2 Can you say "abortion"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I remember one offender, (and we even got a court order barring her from Church) i thought it should have been her parents who were incarcerated.. they really messed her up bad.. She was 28 at the time, the boys were 12-14 Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. You are a murderer....Be careful! Mat 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court.... IF you are angry with someone, you have committed murder and before God's law you stand guilty! So include yourself in your quote above. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Quote: If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. Yes ... Can you imagine having to see killers such as David and Moses. I feel for the families of the ones they killed having to see such people in heaven. Not to mention the rest of us knowing what they did and having to see them walking around as "members" of heaven. At least on earth we can bar them from membership in church but in heaven they will be full fledged members and that will be difficult. We will no longer be able to protect the "name of the church" in the heavenly community. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 7, 2007 Author Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 That is true Stan. We do need to welcome him back, but we also need to ensure that he is accountable for his actions. Sometimes our best friends will not let us get away with everything we want to do. By being a friend they will insist that we 'behave' our best. That is part of being Christ-like. Children should be our #1 priority and we must ever keep in mind the words of Jesus, "Then He said to the disciples, It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:2 Darlene, I'm enouraged by the work that is being done in your area. There are still many conferences and churches that don't "get it'. We really have to protect our children and people but also provide help for those who have offended and want to find God. Its a difficult balance. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Imagine this seniario He comes back, fully watched at Church, meets a kid on the street who knows and likes him.... then the unthinkable happens.. Kid says, "I knew him from Church" etc etc etc etc etc Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. You are a murderer....Be careful! Mat 5:21 ?You have heard that the ancients were told, ?You shall not commit murder? and ?Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.? 22 ?But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court.... IF you are angry with someone, you have committed murder and before God's law you stand guilty! So include yourself in your quote above. Rob Thank you for pointing those things out, Rob. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Quote: If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. Yes ... Can you imagine having to see killers such as David and Moses. I feel for the families of the ones they killed having to see such people in heaven. Not to mention the rest of us knowing what they did and having to see them walking around as "members" of heaven. At least on earth we can bar them from membership in church but in heaven they will be full fledged members and that will be difficult. We will no longer be able to protect the "name of the church" in the heavenly community. Those matters will already have been taken care of in the Pre-Advent Judgment, which is its very purpose. Its purpose is to protect not only the reputation of the church of God but also of God Himself. The Investigative Judgment is a judgment against Satan and the lost, but it is also a judgment in favor of the saints, those who will be saved. The saints, you see, have not always been so saintly, and they need to be absolved, and shown that God is right in saving them. May I share an official teaching of the church: "...The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.--Fundamental Beliefs, 24." I find this belief great news and something to get really excited about, don't you?!! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Quote: meets a kid on the street who knows and likes him.... then the unthinkable happens.. Well, it really isn't the unthinkable, sad to say. As a child victem of sexual abuse, it is an issue I care about. If a pedophile is allowed to come back to the church, he has to have an accountablility partner and all the church members need to know his past as well as any new members that may join later. It is a scarlet letter type of scenario but if he is truely repentant, he will accept that burdon that he must bare. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darlene Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 You are right on, Shane. Our policy is, of course, more extensive than that, but the gist of it is the same as what you are saying. We need to be compassionate towards the offender but, we cannot give him any room to reoffend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Imagine this seniario He comes back, fully watched at Church, meets a kid on the street who knows and likes him.... then the unthinkable happens.. Kid says, "I knew him from Church" etc etc etc etc etc That's why it's so important for parents to talk plainly and openly to their children about these kinds of things. For instance, if I knew of a man like that in our church, I think it would be very important to talk about it to my girls and let them know the situation, and I would hope the pastor would encourage all the other parents to do the same. As it is, I show them the pictures of molesters who live in our town that are posted on the Internet. It even gives their addresses, some not too far from us. It's very important for parents and their children to aware of these things, unfortunately. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. Yes ... Can you imagine having to see killers such as David and Moses. I feel for the families of the ones they killed having to see such people in heaven. Not to mention the rest of us knowing what they did and having to see them walking around as "members" of heaven. At least on earth we can bar them from membership in church but in heaven they will be full fledged members and that will be difficult. We will no longer be able to protect the "name of the church" in the heavenly community. Those matters will already have been taken care of in the Pre-Advent Judgment, which is its very purpose. Its purpose is to protect not only the reputation of the church of God but also of God Himself. The Investigative Judgment is a judgment against Satan and the lost, but it is also a judgment in favor of the saints, those who will be saved. The saints, you see, have not always been so saintly, and they need to be absolved, and shown that God is right in saving them. May I share an official teaching of the church: "...The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.--Fundamental Beliefs, 24." I find this belief great news and something to get really excited about, don't you?!! Thank you John 317 . This is the kind of "church teaching" that I can agree with. I like the source you have used.!!!! And YES it is great news and something we can get excited about. Redwood Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Quote: If you think these are tough calls, imagine heaven where there will be murder victims right along with their killers. Yes ... Can you imagine having to see killers such as David and Moses... I don't think anyone acquainted with David and Moses' history in the Bible will be shocked to see them there. Both of them were truly repentent of their sins and allowed God to make changes in their minds and hearts. We know, in fact, that Moses is there right now and has been there a long time. Elijah is also there and of course he was responsible for the deaths of many Baal priests. He did the right thing in having them killed. However, I can well imagine that Uriah the Hittite will be shocked to see David there after Uriah finds out how he got killed and who his wife Bathsheba lived with after he was killed on the battlefield. I had the situation of Isaiah and Manasseh in mind, too. Credible tradition has it that Isaiah was sawn in half by order of King Manasseh. Yet the Bible indicates that, evil though Manasseh was during most of his life, he genuinely repented of his sinful life and will be among the saved. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 I remember one offender, (and we even got a court order barring her from Church) i thought it should have been her parents who were incarcerated.. they really messed her up bad.. She was 28 at the time, the boys were 12-14 Well, it is certainly true that most of the time the young offenders got to where they are at least partly because of mistakes made by adults and by the society. No doubt about that. Sometimes you wish the state had the power to force the parents to change, but usually it can't. It can arrest them but they usually go right back to their bad behavior, such as prostitution and alcoholism, drugs, etc. Most of the kids I deal with, though, are there because of gang and other criminal activity and they just have to learn that there are consequences to their behavior. On the streets and at home they haven't been made to deal with consequences, so we're trying to teach them that lesson before it's too late and they end up in prison. Most end up eventually in prison anyway if they're not killed first. We get them so late in life-- most 16 to 18. By that time their thinking, values and behavior patterns are already pretty well set for life. I think these lessons have to be learned when kids are between 2 and 6 if it's going to permenantly affect their lives for the better. I did many of the same things these kids do, but the difference is that I had Christian role models that eventually brought me back around, and almost none of these kids have that. We do our best but most of the time our best just isn't enough. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Elijah is also there and of course he was responsible for the deaths of many Baal priests. He did the right thing in having them killed. I fully disagree! "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Quote: Robert said: The "pedophiles" are simply the scapegoat - meaning they are not the root problem. They are listed as the "incurables" while the real problem of sexual immortality marches on. Corporate America packages and sells sex and that's the where the root problem is....They create addicts...and these addictions create all types of sexual immorality! Quote: John 317: Yeah they would like to make you think they're just a scapegoat. That is what the group who wants to legalize sex with children want you to believe too. What you are saying here is garbage. It means people who rape and molest children are the victims. That's trash. While porn is wrong, people have to be held accountable for their behavior and not made to feel that the fault really lies with Corporate America. Porn is not illegal...neither is the killing of innocent infants (abortion). Both are big business! Instead the "pedophile" gets his/her name plastered on the Internet for all to see. That is being made a "scapegoat" or one who takes the heat while others equally guilty go scott free.... To be just if you are going to post names (as you did) then lets start posting all those women who have murdered their unborn infants. And since the porn owners are feeding the flesh that leads to all these sexual perversions, let's jail them also and plaster their faces and names on the Internet after they get out. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 10, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 10, 2007 Quote: Robert said: The "pedophiles" are simply the scapegoat - meaning they are not the root problem. They are listed as the "incurables" while the real problem of sexual immortality marches on. Corporate America packages and sells sex and that's the where the root problem is....They create addicts...and these addictions create all types of sexual immorality! Quote: John 317: Yeah they would like to make you think they're just a scapegoat. That is what the group who wants to legalize sex with children want you to believe too. What you are saying here is garbage. It means people who rape and molest children are the victims. That's trash. While porn is wrong, people have to be held accountable for their behavior and not made to feel that the fault really lies with Corporate America. Porn is not illegal...neither is the killing of innocent infants (abortion). Both are big business! Instead the "pedophile" gets his/her name plastered on the Internet for all to see. That is being made a "scapegoat" or one who takes the heat while others equally guilty go scott free.... To be just if you are going to post names (as you did) then lets start posting all those women who have murdered their unborn infants. And since the porn owners are feeding the flesh that leads to all these sexual perversions, let's jail them also and plaster their faces and names on the Internet after they get out. Robert In my opinion, they need their faces plastered on the Internet so parents and children can be forewarned. The man whose name appears in the above post is a man who for over 35 years had sex with babies in the church where he served as an elder, as well as with many young boys, including his own two boys from the time they were children until just before they got married, and also with his daughter when she was an infant. He was only stopped when his daughters-in-law found he was trying to do the same with one of his grandsons. He would still be doing those things if he hadn't been stopped and put in prison. It would be best if his picture could be seen not only here but at any church he goes to in order to stop him from molesting more children. I'm only sorry he was not stopped 35 years sooner. Imagine how many lives he damaged during that time. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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