Moderators John317 Posted February 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Quote: It is nobody else's business. I would hope you will notice that I never said it was nobody else's business. What I said was that it was between them and God. I didn't feel, and I still don't feel, that I was the right person to make the accusation against those men. In my judgment, that would have put me in the position of the men who brought the woman caught in adultery to Jesus for the purpose of being stoned, after they themselves got her commit the sin in the first place. I don't believe that is what God wants me to do, and I am the one who has to make the decision about that. I would rather be hurt than hurt others, and I believe my making the accusation could only hurt them, not help them. One of those men already told me that God has given him the victory over that sin. The other one is also working with God's grace at overcoming. If I were to report them, it could destroy their marriages, their relationship to their kids, and their work in the church. We need to pray so much for our leaders. They face far more temptations than most of us realize, being so often on the road away from their families, and so many church members assume they are strong and not in need of help. The fact is, though, they usually need more help. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Quote: I agree, but I find it more than a bit peculiar that everyone seems to want sexual sins exposed. I am wondering if they would have the same intense conviction that we should expose someone's sins of dishonesty, greed, selfishness, and lack of Christian love. Yes, the process is there for a good reason and it works when it is done in love as Jesus intended it to be. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 OK, John, I believe that you are speaking of one certain situation, in which the persons involved are, indeed, making an effort, with God's help, to overcome their problem. That is, indeed covered by Christ's instruction in Matthew 18. These men have listened to counsel, and by God's grace, will overcome. For that we can be thankful. You will notice in Matthew 18, there are 4 steps in Christ's instruction. I guess I took it for granted that in church discipline those steps would have been covered. I guess I jumped in a little quickly -- I should have outlined those steps firstly. God bless, Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."Â But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Quote: If I were to report them, it could destroy their marriages A man committing adultery exposes his wife to diseases such as herpes, HPV and HIV. HPV causes cervical cancer and condoms provide very little protection. If I knew a man was cheating on his wife, I would have the obligation to let her know. At least the wife could get the vaccine now available for HPV. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 6, 2007 Author Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Do you think people would be equally interested in my "outing" someone for other sins besides sexual ones? For instance, what if I said I could report a church leader for greed, idolatry, lying, selfishness, lack of Christian love? I'm not saying sexual sins are not terrible sins-- just that those other sins are just as bad, yet they are often made to seem not quite so serious somehow. Your general point is a good one. We have done a bad job over the years discipling our members because of precisely the reasons you state. As a response to this, however, some churches, pastors and individuals (I'm not including you) have decided to ignore Biblical injunctions to discipline its members to the detrement of the church. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 6, 2007 Author Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2007 The popular churches primarly care about attracting as many members as possible. They are centers of entertainment. That is one of the characteristics of Babylon, as portrayed in Revelation. I'm not sure if I agree with that statement. In some area such as church discipline, spiritual gifts, dicipleship nurture etc they are more faithful to God's word that we are. Many of the "unpopular" churches focus on attracting as many members as possible too but they are just no good at it! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted February 6, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Is the reason that those other sins don't get more attention because of something in US, rather than them? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 ....you have to assume they will always be a pedophile. Then the adulteress should always be treated as such... And the murderer.... And the thief.... And the liar.... And the self-righteous....etc, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 WHAT? So I can buy my way into heaven? Legalism of the highest order.... Anyway, Paul dealt with a man who was having sex with his father's wife. He was unrepentative and even the church was praising him on. What did Paul instruct the church to do? "You are to deliver this man to Satan [i.e., give him over to the desires of his nature] for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." In other words let him go live for his flesh (nature) until he gets burnt out....Let him see the true side of sin so that he might be saved in the end. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 ....you have to assume they will always be a pedophile. Then the adulteress should always be treated as such... And the murderer.... And the thief.... And the liar.... And the self-righteous....etc, etc... It's a well-known fact, based on studies of pedophiles, that it is virtually impossible to "reform" them. That is why the law does not allow convicted pedophiles to ever again be alone in the company of children. This is just good sense. It doesn't mean that God cannot change them. It just means that it would be foolish to trust them with children. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted February 6, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Quote: WHAT? So I can buy my way into heaven? Legalism of the highest order.... That's not how I see it. I see it as a systematic way of supporting God's work and a test of faith to see if I can trust the Lord with providing me with my earthly needs Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 The popular churches primarly care about attracting as many members as possible. They are centers of entertainment. That is one of the characteristics of Babylon, as portrayed in Revelation. I'm not sure if I agree with that statement. In some area such as church discipline, spiritual gifts, dicipleship nurture etc they are more faithful to God's word that we are. Many of the "unpopular" churches focus on attracting as many members as possible too but they are just no good at it! I realize that there is a lot of good and some of the gospel to be found among the popular churches, such as the Catholic church and other mainline churches. They are not completely fallen. They are, however, false churches in the sense that they do not preach or practice the full truth of the gospel as it is Jesus. No one is saying, though, that there aren't some good people in those churches or that they don't do or teach anything good. Some do better than others at preaching the word of God. Many hardly preach the word at all. The fact that, as you point out, those popular churches are more "faithful to God's word than we [sDAs] are," is something that we should be ashamed of and make us want to do everything we can to change. I would say that this couldn't be said if individually and as a church we were living up to everything God has revealed to us through the spirit of prophecy, which includes all the prophets from Moses to John as well as the writings of Ellen White. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Growing up- Homos and child molesters were whispered in the same breath. My buddy and I are ten years apart and have this one thing in common. We both heard that from the society. We still hear it BTW. When my buddy and I were walking in the foothills up and down the area(excercise) one glorius day. We came into an area that was open facing a rural highway. I wanted to go right into what looked like a nice tree patch area. We turned to go to that area and just then a gaggle of kids came walking out. my buddy looked at me and I at him. we both turned around to go the other way. That is because we know people associate pedophiles and homophiles. My buddy and I know we are not tempted by children(except to tell them to 'shut up!' if they are having a loud tantrum) but we dont want someone to use an occasion(any occasion) to accuse us of that. In church we dont go out of our way to acknowledge the little rascals. we feel the stigma still. when AIDES started its havoc in the eighties I experienced first hand the hysteria when I(a gay man) held a coworkers baby. at that time if you were gay -you must have AIDES and therefore if you talked babytalk with a baby the AIDES virus will float from my face to the child's face and infect the innocent baby. So somehow there is a double whammy of why gays cant visit church people's homes. What i still wonder about how can AIDES be a or homo scourge or drug addict problem if anybody can be infected by a doorknob or swimming pool.but I digress... Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert Then the adulteress should always be treated as such... And the murderer.... And the thief.... And the liar.... And the self-righteous....etc' date=' etc... [/quote'] It's a well-known fact, based on studies of pedophiles, that it is virtually impossible to "reform" them. You are basing your "facts" on worldly opinions and not the word of God. Again, if God can't change the pedophile's direction then He can't reform the adulteress and therefore you better not get around her or you might mess up. This pedophile thing is not the core problem. The core problem (besides the sin nature) is sexual immorality. I don't believe pedophiles are "attracted" to kids. I think it's basically guys feeding their flesh with porno.... If you notice most of the guys that who are "pedophiles" are not the best looking....They can't get promiscuous women easily and so they turn to kids because they are easily manipulated. Take the good-looking guy who is living for his flesh (in this case his sexual desires) and let him lose his looks and he too will be driven towards the easily manipulated. The real problem is pornography! But no one is coming down on the cute babes out there doing their evil thing. Instead it's looked on as something harmless by the masses, but this is the root of the problem. The "pedophiles" are simply the scapegoat - meaning they are not the root problem. They are listed as the "incurables" while the real problem of sexual immortality marches on. Corporate America packages and sells sex and that's the where the root problem is....They create addicts...and these addictions create all types of sexual immorality! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Is the reason that those other sins don't get more attention because of something in US, rather than them? No doubt. In the case of those other sins, a person who shares those "ordinary sins" may feel more comfortable pointing out "the greater sins" he doesn't feel are a part of his own life. As for my case, how could I accuse gay men whom I felt I got into sin in the first place? How could I go to a wife or girl friend and say, "You know, I slept last night with your husband or your boy friend. I just feel I should warn you, to watch him carefully and have yourself checked out for STDs." Some seem to feel that I had an obligation after sleeping with them to go and say this to their wives or girl friends or even to the church. I don't see it that way at all. For one thing, in the real world, if you did that, your life would probably not be worth the hair on your head. For another, when a person is doing those things, he is not thinking about moral obligations. If he was, he wouldn't be doing those things to begin with. One of the terrible results of immorality is that one immoral thought and act leads to a whole host of addition immoral thoughts and acts. If I knew I had STD, I had an obligation not to have sexual relations. If anyone has STDs, including AIDS, and still has sexual relations, they should be as severely punished as the law allows. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 You are basing your "facts" on worldly opinions and not the word of God. Again, if God can't change the pedophile's direction then He can't reform the adulteress and therefore you better not get around her or you might mess up. This pedophile thing is not the core problem. The core problem (besides the sin nature) is sexual immorality. I don't believe pedophiles are "attracted" to kids. I think it's basically guys feeding their flesh with porno.... I can tell your heart is in the right place, Robert, but you just don't know what you are talking about. You are talking about your "beliefs." I am talking about what every psychologist and social worker who deals with these kinds of things on a daily basis knows. I work on a daily basis with sexual deviants, and my ex-father-in-law is a convicted pedophile whose picture is on the Internet thus: First Name: Don Middle Name: W Last Name: Irland Conviction(s) Indecent Liberties Source of Information: WA StateSex Offender Registry He molested his own sons and his daughter. He was a head elder at the local SDA church. He was not interested in older men his age. I am not talking about whether God can forgive and help people overcome. I am talking about the real world as it is, and, thank God, in the real world we have laws that prevent such people from being around children. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Robert! HI!!!! I almost agree with a majority of your entire statement. M. J. an entertainer alleggly created a thematic disney-esque giant childrens playland symbolizing fairytales and wonderment peter pan thingies to seduce little boys with fame ,money, and his EGO. and he is still beloved by many. and Even I have snapped a finger or danced on the dancefloor to his music so long ago. I think if this guy wanted a promiscous adult lady chic fox to play footsies with him it can happen. there are men who are emotionally stunted and cant relate to a grown woman and somehow relates to these kids as a lovers(!!!!!!!!). There are men out there that use little boys and girls sexually and then tortures and murders them for their jollies! ugh I dont even like reminding ourselves of that. I had to type it.. im sorry I do totally agree with your assesment of sex addiction- compulsive masturbation- porn and MEDIA fixation on SEX as driving and axcerbating men who if growing up in a different time and place would not have the basest passion fed. Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert You are basing your "facts" on worldly opinions and not the word of God. Again, if God can't change the pedophile's direction then He can't reform the adulteress and therefore you better not get around her or you might mess up. This pedophile thing is not the core problem. The core problem (besides the sin nature) is sexual immorality. I don't believe pedophiles are "attracted" to kids. I think it's basically guys feeding their flesh with porno.... I can tell your heart is in the right place, Robert, but you just don't know what you are talking about. You are talking about your "beliefs." I am talking about what every psychologist and social worker who deals with these kinds of things on a daily basis knows. I work on a daily basis with sexual deviants, and my ex-father-in-law is a convicted pedophile whose picture is on the Internet thus: First Name: Don Middle Name: W Last Name: Irland Conviction(s) Indecent Liberties Source of Information: WA StateSex Offender Registry He molested his own sons and his daughter. He was a head elder at the local SDA church. He was not interested in older men his age. I am not talking about whether God can forgive and help people overcome. I am talking about the real world as it is, and, thank God, in the real world we have laws that prevent such people from being around children. You just need to go talk with people who deal with this stuff all the time or go to your local university library and study Social Problems having to do with Pedophilia for about a week. Then come back and we can discuss it. Again, we are not talking about whether God forgives such people when they are truly repentent or even whether God can perform a miracle and help them totally change. We are talking about how wise it would be for the state and even the church to allow such a person to have access to children. If such a person is honest, he wouldn't want to be around children without being accompanied by another adult. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 and let me add.. compulsive masturbation ,believe it or not, is like an art form It has its own meditation(imagination) and rhythem to the beholder. It is incredibly selfish and doesnt require someone else. but because it is fixated on so much that the brian physically changes and the passions can lead to taking advantage of an opportunity that presents itself. a lady jogging by in the hours of the morning (rape) or a child unattended swinging on a swing set at the park (molestation) the masturbation has created a fantasy that the man may want to reinact or get the sexual gratification of flesh contact while still imaging a fantasy. the term"the erect penis has no conscience" comes to mind Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I hope I am clear! o to be a wordsmith! Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 This pedophile thing is not the core problem. The core problem (besides the sin nature) is sexual immorality. I don't believe pedophiles are "attracted" to kids. I think it's basically guys feeding their flesh with porno.... Yes, pedophiles are very attracted to children, and it is foolish to think that's not the case because it flies in the face of everything we know about those kinds of people. It's not a matter of what you "believe" or "think." It is a matter of what the facts are. The facts are that these people enjoy sex with children and have a much lower interest in sex with adults. That is why when they are given the opportunity, they choose children. Quote: If you notice most of the guys that who are "pedophiles" are not the best looking....They can't get promiscuous women easily and so they turn to kids because they are easily manipulated. You are going by your own personal impressions, which obviously are worthless when it comes to identifying "pedophiles." Pedophilia has nothing to do with the Pedophile's looks. That's ridiculous. That would be like saying all rapists look a certain way. Pedophiles have been known to work for years at getting to a particular child sexually. They don't always manipulate. One pedophile in our local area killed a boy after failing to get his sister. He tried to take the girl by asking her if she wanted to help find a cat. The brother came out and kicked the man, but he forced him into a car and drove off. The body of Anthony was found a few weeks later near Indio. A few years later the same man killed a whole family and took a boy and his sister. Later he raped the boy and killed him in front of the sister. He liked kids. He wasn't interested in adults. And he wasn't ugly. Quote: The real problem is pornography! But no one is coming down on the cute babes out there doing their evil thing. Instead it's looked on as something harmless by the masses, but this is the root of the problem. It's far deeper than porn. I agree that porn is a problem and that it often is used as a stimulant in that direction. But the problems have to do with early sexual experiences, such as molestation and rape. A great many of the pedophiles were molested as children. Quote: The "pedophiles" are simply the scapegoat - meaning they are not the root problem. They are listed as the "incurables" while the real problem of sexual immortality marches on. Corporate America packages and sells sex and that's the where the root problem is....They create addicts...and these addictions create all types of sexual immorality! Yeah they would like to make you think they're just a scapegoat. That is what the group who wants to legalize sex with children want you to believe too. What you are saying here is garbage. It means people who rape and molest children are the victims. That's trash. While porn is wrong, people have to be held accountable for their behavior and not made to feel that the fault really lies with Corporate America. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 Growing up- Homos and child molesters were whispered in the same breath. My buddy and I are ten years apart and have this one thing in common. We both heard that from the society. We still hear it BTW. When my buddy and I were walking in the foothills up and down the area(excercise) one glorius day. We came into an area that was open facing a rural highway. I wanted to go right into what looked like a nice tree patch area. We turned to go to that area and just then a gaggle of kids came walking out. my buddy looked at me and I at him. we both turned around to go the other way. That is because we know people associate pedophiles and homophiles... Due to ignorance, stupidity, bigotry, prejudice, lack of experience, etc. For the same reasons, some people are afraid of meeting a black guy on a dark or even a well-lit street. Quote: ...So somehow there is a double whammy of why gays cant visit church people's homes. I've never experienced what you are describing here, but maybe that is because I don't advertize that I'm gay. The church I go to does not know I am gay. They don't need to. God has forgiven me for the sins involved in being gay and He has helped me overcome those temptations. Do you mean you feel that you can't visit church people's homes? Have people in the church said things to you to make you feel that way? If so, Orange, I think that's terrible and I would urge you to talk with your pastor and the head elder and let them know about this. Quote: What i still wonder about how can AIDES be a or homo scourge or drug addict problem if anybody can be infected by a doorknob or swimming pool.but I digress... It's not a homo scourge, that's for sure. It is usually connected with immoral behaviors, of course, but I hope we're beyond labeling people who are HIV positive as somehow more evil than others or as people who should be shunned. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 I hope I am clear! o to be a wordsmith! Hey Parade you do just fine. I do a lot of reading in many different genres and levels of expertise, and I have to tell you I think you have something of the natural poet in you, at least in the way you sometimes express yourself in writing. So, you can count yourself a wordsmith of sorts after all. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2007 and let me add.. compulsive masturbation ,believe it or not, is like an art form It has its own meditation(imagination) and rhythem to the beholder. It is incredibly selfish and doesnt require someone else. Those are the basic reasons that compulsive masturbation is wrong-- it leads to sinful thoughts and uses sex for self-centered gratification when God intended it to be used for expressing genuine love for another within the context of marriage and family. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I think the problem is that when people are taken off the church books, we treat them like they have the plague instead of surrounding them with love. The church is not a country club for saints but a hospital for sinners. True. Let us remember that the goal of healing is to walk away from perpetual defeat in wholeness. Using our illustration, hospitals need to release people in freedom after they have been made whole. A life bound in strongholds is a life that is not useful to God. Consciousness of this special relationship will keep us both inspired and humble. gcw Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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