We don't talk about not having a plan to reach...

[Stan]

We don't talk about not having a viable plan to reach everyone in our village, city, state or area that we serve...

[Clio]

No Stan, we really don't. My husband told me on the flight home from Dallas that while he's really like to attend church with me, every SDA church he's ever tried to attend with me has run him off.

He was very apologetic, but felt that trying a number of times over 20 years, in multiple states was sufficient to give him an idea of how they are as a denomination.

So I think the viable plan needs to be not just to reach them, but to make them want to stay a part of us once reached.

Clio

[Woody]

Clio ... I am very interested in knowing how your husband has felt run off. If it is too personal I would understand. But if you felt more comfortable sharing with me in a PM then I would appreciate that also. I am very interested in knowing how others feel hurt by our churches. I know our denomination can be cruel but I want to find ways to help. Please let me know what you can. I also have been hurt so I am not doubting what you husband has experienced. Thank you,

[Naomi]

Stan, YOu are correct, we don't.

IMHO, while we acknowledge that our greatest Mission Field is right outside our own front door, most are uncomfortable in sharing our faith too close to home; so to speak.

Perhaps we should think about the possibility of a movement in which everyone takes responsibility for reaching their friends and neighbors, etc. by daily walking their talk.

[bevin]

My wife has a plan for evangelism - she is the children's director at the local non-denominational CBS (Community Bible Study)

http://communitybiblestudy.org/

Unfortunately she feels like she can't invite anyone to the SDA church she attends, because it is too dysfunctional

Clio is right

Quote:

So I think the viable plan needs to be not just to reach them, but to make them want to stay a part of us once reached.

There is no point in bringing people in to a dysfunctional congregation

/Bevin

[there buster]

NADEI considers North America to be the third largest mission field in the world.

[Taylor]

wow Ed!We need to focus more on North America!

[there buster]

Several years ago, Russell Burrill said there were more than 260million unreached people in North America. And because they have been exposed to nominal Christianity, they're highly resistant, as though they had been 'inoculated' against it.

That's my audience. If I knew how to upload a picture, I'd share the cover of my book which officially comes out this weekend. It's aimed at precisely the postmodern contemporary culture.

[Clio]

Well, he's often felt condescended to when he didn't "get" the lingo, know when to stand, sit, kneel, at the right times, or made to feel foolish when he asks a question and is given pablum that either doesn't address his question, or implies he's stupid for asking it.

He's hurt when he invites men in the church to do things with him and they are "too busy" over and over and over and over. He's hurt when they don't invite or include him in a "men's ministries" activity and leave him out of their club.

Often the response was "Oh, it was in the bulletin, everyone is invited". But when you're a newbie, stumbling toward a relationship you really hope someone will reach out, directly, and know who you are enough to call, come by and actually pick you up and take you there, ask you to use your skills around the church to *help*, or speak to you like an intelligent, adult human when you come to church.

I once tried an experiment, just to see what would happen. I went to the same church for 8 weeks straight, sat in the same pew, always a little early, remained available between Sabbath School and church, and no one, not one single person spoke to me.

I tried it because I wanted to see what it would be like to be a new member, not knowing anyone, and not secure enough to start up conversations with people who seemed to know each other, have lots to talk about and most of which I didn't understand.

I found it interesting that NO ONE including the pastor spoke to me during those 8 weeks.

I think my husband is also hurt that he has been continually ill, to the point of being bedridden for 3 years February 24th, and the pastor has been to see him 5 or 6 times, and NONE of the other members that he knew slightly and was beginning to establish relationships with (two of which are elders) have not called or asked to come by at all.

He's also a little dumbfounded that knowing his condition, I've been left to struggle alone, when he knows and understands the instructions Jesus gave regarding those in need of help.

Not a very welcoming place... especially to someone who doesn't speak Adventist, didn't go through our schools, doesn't know anyone, isn't part of the "in" crowd, or understand that the bulletin, or even just "knowing" that the third Thursday of every month is "the" day for whatever is all the invite they're likely to get.

For all of these reasons, I would never feel free to invite a new Christian to an SDA church. I would be too afraid their first love would be quenched by a people claiming to have the "truth" but unable to apply it in love to those who need it most.

Clio

[Woody]

Clio ... I am just at a loss for words. Thank you for being willing to share this with me. It has touched me greatly. And mostly because I have experienced much of it and have seen the rest. I needed to be reminded of the truth of what you said.

I want very much to find a way to change all that you have noted. I am not sure how but I do know it can and must change.

Do you have any specific ideas on how to help?

If you thought your husband would like a pen pal who has experienced much of what you have outlined ... I would be happy to correspond with him.

All I know is that it breaks my heart to hear of what happened. Like I said ... I have experienced much pain caused by the church. But, I want to stick around and see things changed.

I do hope you will help me in brain storming what can be done to improve things.

[John317]

Several years ago, Russell Burrill said there were more than 260million unreached people in North America. And because they have been exposed to nominal Christianity, they're highly resistant, as though they had been 'inoculated' against it.

That's my audience. If I knew how to upload a picture, I'd share the cover of my book which officially comes out this weekend. It's aimed at precisely the postmodern contemporary culture.

That's great you're doing that. Not all, of course, are postmodern, though, just as you say. I have a good friend who is one of those "icoculated" ones you refer to. There are so many. He is well educated and many years ago even read some the Bible in the NEB translation. In 1971, he also read parts of Desire of Ages, and told me that it seemed to him the author had seen the events she was describing. (I don't know how he got the book and I never said anything to him about it because at the time I was not even a Christian.) But shortly after that time he became basically non-religious and is still the same. We rarely discuss religion because for him it is all false and fakery. We have many other things in common, mainly art, film, photography, and literature.

He once asked me, "Does God like to f---?" These people do not realize they are being blasphemous when they ask such questions, because they lack all knowledge and experience of the holy. He is coming to visit me this coming Monday, and I am thinking of giving him a book. Perhaps I will wait until I can send him your book. I pray for him, that God will soften his heart, open his eyes, and cause him to have a desire for God's word. All he wants to do now is continue travelling and photographing the world and then finally die in a whore house in Thailand or Calcutta. Who knows, he says, maybe there's another life afterwards.

[Clio]

Mike's not much of a pen pal kind of guy, and the hurt goes so deeply now I don't know how he would react to my having shared this.

I know there are members of the church who read here... I've been called a liar on this board by someone who registered simply to make that statement. It resulted in my providing much more detailed information than I have here.

I should point out, that what I describe of my husband's experience is not limited to the churches in the town in which we currently reside, but includes churches in Washington State, California, Virgina, Missouri, and Texas.

How to change it? There is no way to change it short of living an example. I have tried, but it is not an easy thing to do for a couple who are jointly engaged in this mission. It subsumes your time, for one thing, and you must fight church politics regarding who's talking to whom, who's in charge of what, and avoid stepping on anyone's toes who "owns" the bailiwick of Women's ministries, Men's Ministries, Pathfinders, Family Ministries, Community Outreach or whatever.

I found that because of the amount of time and energy I expend caring for my husband, supporting my family, keeping up with all the housework I would normally do, plus ensuring all the items that a healthy husband would normally take care of, the doctor's visits, the trips to ER, living in ICU when he's in the hospital, and ensuring my teens have adequate supervision, that by the time I even contemplate adding the effort it takes to live the kind of example, reaching out to people I know need my help, I have nothing left to give.

All I want to do is bide quietly with my husband, cherishing the time I have to visit with him, and be together as a couple ... and not in a hospital.

In addition, we're rather reached a point where going out to "do" or to participate in a "program" is more than he can do comfortably. Sabbath mornings tend towards focusing on each other, not on doing church for the sake of doing church. His ability to be out and about is so limited, we tend to reserve his energies for things that don't emotionally and spiritually drain him.

[LifeHiscost]

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:15 KJV

For many years I read this with my conscience condemning me for the little (or none at all) that I seemed to do to bring this to pass, as a believer in Jesus. Then one day I realized Jesus wasn't speaking to me alone, but the whole body of Christ, of which I was only a small (if not the smallest) part of a much larger movement.

However, rather than using that as a reason for whipping all the other members of the body to shake a leg so the work could be finished, I came to realize Jesus gives every person the right to take however much of the burden of the work they wish to carry. And then I ran across a text that told me how I could motivate those who I did come into contact, in a manner that would be most apt to fulfill His desire for them, as well as for me.

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16 NASB

Of course, I still had a problem. I didn't have the heart to take on the larger tasks without becoming discouraged when receiving the criticisms that are bound to accrue to those successful in glorifying Jesus. All one has to do to see the truth of that is to see what happened, not only to Jesus, but to all the early disciples who had success in spreading the Word.

Then I had a choice. I could either reflect on how hard the work is and how unappreciative all who criticize me were, or I could ask God to give me a heart to stand up under whatever came from trying to serve Him, to the best of my very limited ability,

and accept only the work He was able to use me for, successfully.

"...apart from Me you can do nothing."

John 15:5

I accepted His promise that when condemnation came by one or another, that it was never from Him. And if not from Him, how could that condemnation be recognized? Since never from Him, it had to be either my conscience, the prince of darkness, or someone who agreed with the evil one.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17 NKJV

And what He wanted me to know, He wanted everone else to know also, and more besides.

The job He felt would do me the most good was to take care of someone else, on a one on one basis, without complaining. Very difficult for the old nature to handle, since selfishness was all it ever knew, sometimes religiously selfish. I had to, over and over, ask Him to enter my heart to soften it for the ones He had come to save. Being almost totally removed from physical pain myself, it took a major change of heart to empathize with another that had pains I knew little about.

As to accepting the task when I "knew" I could do so much more?

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

" Matthew 25:40 KJV

All of a sudden I found I was serving Jesus 24/7 and getting much thanks for doing something few consider worth stooping to do. Praise God!! How did I get to this place? By accepting the counsel;

"O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;

It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps." Jer 10:23 NKJV

And claiming a promise.

" Establish my footsteps in Your word,

And do not let any iniquity have dominion over me." Psalms 119:133 NASB

Have a Happy Sabbath!!

[Morepork]

Redwood, there is nothing I can do in my church to change peoples attitude.

You can teach lessons on how to behave as Christians, you can preach, and it all goes over the heads of those who are hellbent on power and control.

Clio, I understand what you are saying, and sympathise - it's all to real in too many of our churches.

We can have the warmest welcoming church buildings and be so cold and heartless once inside.

I speak from over 60 years experience in the church, have had the most unbelievable encounters with unchristian behavours, and unpleasant and all that it is, these members have only served to strengthen my faith in God, and determine my resolve to stick with the ship.

Favourite positions at church are being on the door to welcome the saints, and play nice soothing music!

[antcreations]

When I was a young man, I wanted to change the world. I found it was difficult to change the world, so I tried to change my nation. When I found I couldn’t change the nation, I began to focus on my town. I couldn’t change the town and as an older man, I tried to change my family.

Now, as an old man, I realize the only thing I can change is myself, and suddenly I realize that if long ago I had changed myself, I could have made an impact on my family. My family and I could have made an impact on our town. Their impact could have changed the nation and I could indeed have changed the world. -unknown monk 1100A.D

[Ellen]

One Sermon I heard years ago was about the reason our churches are under-attended.

The speaker said the prediction that people will pour into our church in the end times will only take place when WE are ready to receive them. It is a good thing, he suggested, that they haven't done that yet or they would be discouraged and lose their chance.

This has played in my mind so many times, especially when I see clanishness and bickering and criticising going on.

If we can't get along well with each other how can we be ready to receive groups of new interests in our congregation.

I like the reply that it is only ourselves that we can change in the end. I would say example is the clue.

[Woody]

Excellent post Ellen.

In order for our churches to be ready for those to come in ...

I feel we need to have tolerance and love.

To the conservative ... those are anathema. They are terrible words. But the 'bickering' will continue until the 'I know best' attitude is done a way with.

Accept people who come to our churches with different ideas and level of Christian knowledge. Accept that liberal. Accept that legalist. Welcome them with open arms and don't try to change them. Just let them soak up the love of God.

This is called love and tolerance. Let the Holy Spirit change the minds of those who need to have changes. Don't worry about it.

That is MY two cents worth.

[phkrause]

That includes political tolerance as well Redwood. :)

pk

[Woody]

Well pk ... with political issues ... I like to beat them over the head first and then show them some tolerance. Ha Ha :)

[phkrause]

pk

[Dr. Shane]

We don't talk about not having a viable plan to reach everyone in our village, city, state or area that we serve...

There was a great "Really Living" program on the Hope Channel tonight about what a church in BC is doing to become relevant in their community. They have grown so much they are having to build a new church.

[antcreations]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

We don't talk about not having a viable plan to reach everyone in our village, city, state or area that we serve...

There was a great "Really Living" program on the Hope Channel tonight about what a church in BC is doing to become relevant in their community. They have grown so much they are having to build a new church.

that's Aldergrove church: http://www.aldergrovesda.org/

[Taylor]

Sounds like an awesome church!!