Moderators Gerr Posted February 19, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2007 Gerry … I can tell you that most nondenominational churches do not have membership. Is that what you want? Non-denominational? They are non-denominational because they don't have any set of beliefs defined as "truth". BTW, I'm still waiting for you to tell me a name of the church that doesn't have membership so I can check on it. Rudywoofs already showed you they do. Quote: It is the Board of the Church that controls the hiring of a Pastor. I have been on such a Board. Can I volunteer to be a member of that Board? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 19, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2007 Quote: There IS voting at the Board meeting. When a church is organized … a Board is established. How can you organize anything without members? You can't make something out of nothing unless you are divine! Quote: Leaders are assigned by the Board. This type of voting of the Spiritual Gifts of those that attend is good in my eyes. It protects your concerns about people coming in and preaching Mormonism. Employers are expected to make judgments. It is when you judge the sins of an individual and determine they are not worthy to associate with in Christian fellowship that it is wrong. So, members who claim to have accepted a certain set of beliefs who live contrary to those set of beliefs, or perhaps even repudiate them, cannot be disfellowshiped? Quote: I think you are misinterpreting the scripture you have quoted. Since English was not my native tongue, tell me what is there to misinterpret. I even gave you, what, 4 different translations? One was in very plain English! Perhaps you can tell me how you understand the passage I quoted? Quote: Quote: Do you share the gospel? Why? Is it not because you have correctly judged that if they do not have it they would be lost? No Gerry .... I do not make that judgment. I leave judgment up to Christ. I give witness to Christ because I love Him and love to share about what He has done in my life. I share it with all who I come in contact with. I do not share it with just those who MIGHT be lost. I do not judge. Whether you admit it or not, you share the gospel only to those you have JUDGED to be sinners. Quote: Quote: Saul the persecutor was not accepted as a believer until his belief in Christ was ascertained Yes Gerry ... Once an individual has expressed his belief in Christ and his desire to follow Christ through Baptism ... then we are to accept them into fellowship as a believer. But this does not mean a member as we know it. The early church did not vote on membership or baptism ... you were baptized and then accepted. The only way you can be a member of the SDA church is not through baptism as with the Early Church ... but it is through a vote of the people. If you are advocating that we follow strictly what the early church did or did not do, will you be advocating believers selling their possessions and having everything in common any time soon? Quote: Quote: then why did they count how many baptizms they had? Baptisms are something to praise God for. But I do not see your point. Counting Baptisms is not the same as counting a membership. Membership is accomplished ONLY through a vote. Baptism is a public display of wanting to follow Jesus and going down into the water. The two are not the same. As I said previously, I have no problem SDA or any other minister baptizing people who accept Jesus as Lord & Savior without becoming SDAs. Acts 2:47, "And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved." Sounds like counting members to me. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 19, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2007 Quote: It is when you judge the sins of an individual and determine they are not worthy to associate with in Christian fellowship that it is wrong. "But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols." Rev 2:20 NASB Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 19, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2007 Thank you, John 3! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Always judge SIN but not the SINNER. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 19, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2007 Always judge SIN but not the SINNER. Good point, but when the sinner clings his/her sin, s/he becomes identified with it and is judged right along with the sin. When Paul advised the Corinthians to disfellowship the offending member, they not only judged the sin but the sinner as well. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Jesus said ... He who is without sin cast the first stone. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 19, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2007 Jesus said ... He who is without sin cast the first stone. So, when the pastor, elder, or deacon are shooting drugs or sleeping with another's spouse, or sexually molesting a child, we are to just keep quite lest we judge them since we are also sinners? Was Paul contradicting Jesus in 1 Cor 5:2? Or Jesus contradicting Himself by what He said in Rev 2:20? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 20, 2007 Author Share Posted February 20, 2007 We let MD's practice Medicine and give us wisdom, some unsolicited We let DDS's pull out our teeth and give us wisdom, some unsolicited BUT if a Pastor Pastors, well that seem to cross the line..... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2007 We let MD's practice Medicine and give us wisdom, some unsolicited We let DDS's pull out our teeth and give us wisdom, some unsolicited BUT if a Pastor Pastors, well that seem to cross the line..... I don't understand. Can you elucidate? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 20, 2007 Author Share Posted February 20, 2007 Pastor, (I think that word came from someone who lead sheep, feeds the flock, gives direction, build the community etc etc, ) when they try to do that to Humans, can be called legalists... if they try to 'Pastor' us... Not sure that I packaged my thought quite right... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood Jesus said ... He who is without sin cast the first stone. So, when the pastor, elder, or deacon are shooting drugs or sleeping with another's spouse, or sexually molesting a child, we are to just keep quite lest we judge them since we are also sinners? Was Paul contradicting Jesus in 1 Cor 5:2? Or Jesus contradicting Himself by what He said in Rev 2:20? Gerry The Wheat and the Tares are to grow together until the Harvest. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2007 Soooooo, What about 1 Cor 5:2? Rev 2:20? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 You know ... we could go back and forth quoting lots of scripture. You could have your list and I could have mine. I accept that you have your belief and interpretation. I would not want to change your belief. I would hope that you could see that right or wrong ... I could interpret scripture differently than you. Can you allow for that? Can you see that there are scripture that can lead each of us to our two beliefs. Can we love those who have different views? OR Do we have to dogmatically say that OUR way is the ONLY way and there is NO way to interpret it except the way that "I" interpret it? And please understand ... I am not accusing you of doing this. It is just a question that I want to ask ALL CA members. I just hope that we can be tolerant of those who interpret scripture differently. This is why you will find that I personaly do not throw out a lot of scripture. I could. But I realize that each is going to interpret differently. And that is fine. I would rather hear what their belief is than to hear the proof. We all have proof for our beliefs of scripture. I just refuse to get goated into trying to prove my beliefs. I will only go so far. And then if you disagree ... then I am fine with that. I guess this is my way of saying I think it is fine for you to believe as you do. I hope you will allow me to believe differently. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood Jesus said ... He who is without sin cast the first stone. So, when the pastor, elder, or deacon are shooting drugs or sleeping with another's spouse, or sexually molesting a child, we are to just keep quite lest we judge them since we are also sinners? Was Paul contradicting Jesus in 1 Cor 5:2? Or Jesus contradicting Himself by what He said in Rev 2:20? Gerry Two examples: Rev. 2:20, 23-- The True Witness, Jesus, says to us, "I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray... I am the one who searches the minds and hearts...I will give to each one of you according to your deeds." Remember Achan (Joshua 7: 13) and how many in Israel died because of his sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 20, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2007 I am not intolerant of people having different views from mine. I do have problems with people who tell me I am misinterpreting Scripture even when it says something not in gray terms but in plain black and white english. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2007 Quote: The Wheat and the Tares are to grow together until the Harvest. And what's a tare? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Quote: Ryegrass, or Lolium is probably the "tares" of the biblical Parable of the Tares (Matthew 13: 24-30) "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way" (Matt 13:25 ;King James Version). Also known as 'darnel", or 'cheat'. The seeds of at least the bearded darnel Lolium temulentum are considered poisonous. Cheat grass is nasty, as anyone that has ever had a pet get cheat in its paw or elsewhere can attest. It burrows into the skin and causes alot of pain and suffering. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Oh, it's also the weight of an empty container. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2007 My point in asking Redwood what a tare is, is that he seems to forget that a tare can look like the real thing. An impostor. A counterfeit. Therefore, it can be very difficult to tell it apart from the real thing. Fallible, sinful human beings can't go around kicking out people they deem to be tares. It takes the Lord's perfect vision to reveal their fruit, which we may never know until harvest time. No so with some members, like some of the Corinthians who were "puffed up" even though one man was blatantly living with his father's wife! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 My point in asking Redwood what a tare is, is that he seems to forget that a tare can look like the real thing. An impostor. A counterfeit. Therefore, it can be very difficult to tell it apart from the real thing. Fallible, sinful human beings can't go around kicking out people they deem to be tares. It takes the Lord's perfect vision to reveal their fruit, which we may never know until harvest time. No so with some members, like some of the Corinthians who were "puffed up" even though one man was blatantly living with his father's wife! Gerry We are ALL sinners in need of a Saviour. Let's not be confused ... our works will not save us so it should not be confusing to see sinners in our church. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I am not intolerant of people having different views from mine. I do have problems with people who tell me I am misinterpreting Scripture even when it says something not in gray terms but in plain black and white english. Gerry Intolerance is not realizing that what is Black and White for one person .... may be gray for another. You are certainly free to have your opinion. I would not want to change it. But I would hope you could respect that others see an entirely different color. And perhaps those that see a different color from yours will not burn in Hell. I am of the belief that our Knowledge will not save us. I see God as a loving and forgiving God. I believe He allows us to have different interpretations such as this. So ... like I say ... I think it is fine that you have your belief. I don't feel mine is any better than yours. My purpose is to encourage you to see that others have different views. I will not give you all the points of my belief. If you are interested in exploring how I see things ... I think you can do that on your own. If you are truely interested ... you can explore on your own so I am not going to mouth feed you. My purpose is not to prove that "I" am right. I may be wrong and that is fine. But I remain that way. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2007 Quote: We are ALL sinners in need of a Saviour. Agreed!!! Quote: Let's not be confused ... our works will not save us so it should not be confusing to see sinners in our church. Ageed again!!! My quibble with you is that you gave me the impression that in your view there seems to be no room for the church to make judgments and disfellowship members who are blatantly living contrary to what God requires. If this is a mistaken impression, I stand corrected. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 21, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2007 Quote: I am of the belief that our Knowledge will not save us. "And this is eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Jn 17:3 NKJ Without knowledge? We wind up: "You worship what you do not know.....But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshiipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and truth. Jn 4:22-24 NKJ Quote: I see God as a loving and forgiving God. I believe He allows us to have different interpretations such as this. So ... like I say ... I think it is fine that you have your belief. I don't feel mine is any better than yours. Agreed. I also believe that the more we understand what the Bible is really saying and receive/believe what it plainly says, there would be a lot less differences of opinion/interpretation. Quote: My purpose is to encourage you to see that others have different views. I will not give you all the points of my belief. If you are interested in exploring how I see things ... I think you can do that on your own. If you are truely interested ... you can explore on your own so I am not going to mouth feed you. My purpose is not to prove that "I" am right. I may be wrong and that is fine. But I remain that way. Friend, this is a forum. IMO, everyone is cognizant of the diversity of opinions. In this setting, don't be surprised that opinions/interpretations are challenged. Everyone should be open-minded enough to realize that when their positions cannot be defended, it is folly to hang on to them. I've had my share of eating humble pie. I have no problem with people telling me when I am wrong; in fact, I encourage everyone who read my posts to do it. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Quote: Agreed. I also believe that the more we understand what the Bible is really saying and receive/believe what it plainly says, there would be a lot less differences of opinion/interpretation I think we will always have differences and I think that is just fine. Knowledge is not MY Saviour ... Jesus is my Saviour. I accept HIM even though I don't "know" him as I should. I do accept Him on Faith. Many feel that knowledge or our works will save us ... But Paul says " To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness". Rom. 4:5 Quote: everyone is cognizant of the diversity of opinions Personally I have found here that some individuals feel that only THEY have the TRUTH. And they can do a great job of quoting slanted Ellen White quotes and Bible quotes. Both sides can do a lot of quoting. What it comes down to is your interpretation. And I find little tolerance of those with difference interpretation. I see far to many statements like .... Well don't you believe in the Bible? Don't you believe in Ellen White? What they mean is that you can't possibly believe in Ellen White if you don't believe in THEIR interpretatiion. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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